407 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

CrushLibs, on 12 May 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

There is a 24% not 40% increase in heat dissipation 3.91 vs 5.20 heat/s DHS is 1.4 not 2.0 Duh

5.2 / 3.91 is 33% which is still twice as much increased dissipation compared to the 15% increased heat generation.

Overall proving my point that the WHK is EQUAL TO THE STK

Edited by Adamski, 12 May 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Void Angel]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 May 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

They also do equal to, or less, damage per second than IS weapons, and generate more heat. C'mon, man! Look at more than just one value. There are multiple aspects to the balance state involved here. :\


The only point of dubious imbalance is the clan XLE.

I agree with your conclusion, but actually, Clan weapons generate equal or greater DPS. The only exception is the non-ultra placeholder ACs that were implemented because ammo switching for C-LBX series ACs wasn't (and isn't) functional. The primary difference in Clan weapons is efficiency and stare times. For example, the C-ERLL does more dps and is only slightly more inefficient (dps per heat) than the Inner Sphere ERLL. While Clan laser models does suffer from longer beam duration, they are well-compensated with range, lighter tonnage, and weapon space - particularly once smaller DHS are considered.

HOWEVER, these strengths come at a price, and the Clans' short-range lasers - while still doing more dps - are massively inefficient compared to the Inner Sphere's. Look at Smurfy's Awesome Spreadsheet and divide hps by dps for the Clan and Inner Sphere LPLs sometime. Clan Autocannons are similarly disadvantaged at close range, and nobody who vaccinates their dang mechs with AMS fears Clan LRMs. So the only debatable balance issue is the massive mobility for negligible cost enjoyed by most Clan Omnimechs - particularly the Unholy Trinity of Hellbringer, Stormcrow, and Timber Wolf. Of course the Clans do not have any truly fast Lights, but relative force compositions are changing, and beyond the scope of this point in any case.

So while I do agree that the Clans are overall pretty balanced, I did want to stress the important point in comparing Clan v. Inner Sphere weapons - this is the reason that most successful Inner Sphere engagements with the Clans involve close range.

[Void Angel]

InnerSphereNews, on 11 May 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors,



Following their loss to the Clans in the First Battle of Tukayyid, Inner Sphere forces have been meeting the Second Clan Invasion with greater strength and ferocity than ever.



Many territories have been won by the Inner Sphere forces since the borders were reset at the end of the battle, and such gains come at a cost: Inner Sphere supply lines and infrastructure in the outer territories, already being stressed by extended Clan occupation, have experienced even greater turmoil in the wake of immense losses experienced at the Battle of Tukayyid.
In their noble efforts to prevent such a defeat again, the Inner Sphere forces have stretched their supply lines too thin.



Effective from 3PM PDT today, Inner Sphere DropDeck tonnage limits have been reduced from 250 tonnes to 240 tonnes.

Neat flavor text and all, but... how come? I'm not sharpening a pitchfork or anything, but an explanation would give the many, many stupid totally not at all unreasonably upset people in this thread less room to spin their hair-brained conspiracy theories completely not self-serving and biased explanations.

[CyclonerM]

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

And IS is supposed to outnumber the clans 4 to 1

You are right, i suppose. Were it for me, i would gladly try something like 5 OmniMechs with locked armor but un-nerfed weapons vs 12 3025-tech IS 'Mechs (no Gauss/ERPPC etc, SHSs only, no endo-steel..), all with stock loadouts and BT armor values

[Jack Spade Ward]

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

And IS is supposed to outnumber the clans 4 to 1

yep, and they do... IS outnumbers clan 10 to 1, while clan tech is so nerfed that cant compete with the IS meta mechs

So yes, cry me a river with all the whining you IS fan boys are used to do

[Adamski]

CyclonerM, on 12 May 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

You are right, i suppose. Were it for me, i would gladly try something like 5 OmniMechs with locked armor but un-nerfed weapons vs 12 3025-tech IS 'Mechs (no Gauss/ERPPC etc, SHSs only, no endo-steel..), all with stock loadouts and BT armor values

Umm.. thats not quite right, Battle of Tukayyid was 4 ComGuard Star League era tech battlemechs for each Clan Omnimech.

Spadejack, on 12 May 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

yep, and they do... IS outnumbers clan 10 to 1, while clan tech is so nerfed that cant compete with the IS meta mechs

So yes, cry me a river with all the whining you IS fan boys are used to do

Matches are limited to 12 pilots vs 12 pilots, population imbalance simply means the over populated side has to wait longer for a match now. And I've already proven that the IS Meta Mechs are simply competitive with the nerfed clan tech.

[Void Angel]

Spadejack, on 12 May 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

I guess youre a cry baby IS fan boy to answer me like that...
In case you dont know, clan tech is suposed to be better, much better!

No they're not. In MWO Clan 'mechs are supposed to be equal to Inner Sphere 'mechs, for very good reasons that were explained well prior to the launch of the Clan Invasion. Before you even start, simply making the Clans balanced against the Inner Sphere doesn't wreck or damage this game, because this game is not a combat module for your fantasy MechWarrior LARP, nor a means to re-live the tabletop experience from your childhood.

Put the rulebook from the other game down, and stop hitting.

PS: Your argument just above is laughable. You can't compare the Inner Sphere's numerical advantage in-game (and you're making up numbers, by the way) to actual numbers on the battlefield, even if your silly assertion that Clans are "supposed to be" canon is accepted. In MWO, the Inner Sphere simply cannot make use of the advantage you suppose in many situations. The current push against the Adjective Animals is because of organizations, not numbers.

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

And I've already proven that the IS Meta Mechs are simply competitive with the nerfed clan tech.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the Battle of Tukayyid just proved that. =)

[AnimeFreak40K]

The amount of rage and hate going on about this particular change is amusing to me…

…actually, the rage and hate that comes from any changes in this game are hilarious now that I think about it.

I honestly and truly have to wonder if there were some subtleties about this game that people have generally and completely missed and they completely and utterly lose any possibility of coherent thought and simply roll their faces over their keyboards as they spout their vicious hatred that is formed out of their ignorance (admittedly, the fact that this is the internet and people always have to rage about something is also likely a factor as well, but that lies outside my point).

What subtleties am I talking about?

For starters, this game is inspired by the lore of BattleTech… I am well aware that some folks are aware of this fact and this particular bullet-point is not for you, so moving on: this inspiration begins and ends with the background, equipment, names and locations. Anything above and beyond that is simply window dressing at best and PGI has taken the efforts to point out that the Lore and such are merely guidelines at best.
The rage and lamentations about certain aspects of the tabletop game, books and other lore (people changing factions at a whim, people playing both sides, Clans hiring mercenaries, etc., etc., etc.) are absolutely meaningless. The sooner you realize this, more likely the happier you will be. If this is not a viable solution, then I would suggest you start getting to work on the game that *you* want to play.

Following up is pretty much anything that changes in this game, though the crux of this observation is usually centered around various quirks and such. The fact of the matter, and this is something that I am pretty well convinced most of the people playing this game cannot wrap their heads around is that at its baseline, MechWarrior: Online is an MMO. In MMOs things change. They change a lot. Some MMOs are only PvE, others are strictly PvP but most of them have a mixture of the two. In games that have PvP elements, a Metagame is developed, that can be roughly translated to best practices that make the most out of what the game’s mechanic.
Players that develop this meta do so with the expectation that their way of doing things will out-perform other players. Strategies and tactics, equipment, etc. are built up (some more quickly than others). This is common, this is expected.

Equally common and expected by those who play MMOs like Guild Wars 2 or World of Warcraft are things that shift and change the established meta. Some of these changes are minor and hardly noticeable by the majority of the population while others can completely tear the current asunder leaving nothing but ruin and ash in its place. These changes are done on purpose. This disruption is completely and totally intentional and it is NOT because the developers ‘hate the community’, ‘can’t balance anything’ or ‘have no clue what they’re doing’.

These changes, these intentional disruptions have the sole purpose of creating and maintaining an in-game dynamic. They do it to keep things interesting and competitive. They do it to prevent boredom and encourage people to do and try new and different things. This, my fellow MechWarriors, is the most important reason why things can, will and should change. Because once things get locked in to a certain meta, things will quickly get boring. And (most) players won’t stick around for ‘boring’.

The fact that PGI has announced that they intend to release this game through Steam at some point in the near-ish future, the fundamental fact of the matter is that there will be changes. And if PGI wants to increase and grow its player base, it NEEDS to keep things interesting for everybody…or at least as many people as possible.
TL;DR:

• Complaining about stuff regarding lore is stupid and pointless. Don’t like it, make a game that is closer to the lore or what you want to play
  
• Complaining about any given changes in the game is stupid and pointless. As an MMO-style game with a strong base in PvP, you can expect changes that will disrupt the meta and cause people to establish new metas. Get used to it.

[Der Hesse]

CrushLibs, on 12 May 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I played 95 CW matches for Tukayyid with 14 over 300 match scores and not one that didn't qualify. How did both of you fair?

*Trollmode on*
Yes, you did, because you played clanmechs! ^^
*Trollmode off*

To be honest.....if you think that this proves your point then you are just plain dumb.

[Adamski]

Honestly, I could care less about the META being changed, I care more about BALANCE, and PGIs apparent lack of concern over how changes will impact it.

If PGI wants to provide reasons for doing things that will disrupt or shift the balance, then we could examine and debate them on their merits. Instead PGI implements changes often with no reasoning other than "to see how things change" with no regard to the current state of the game or how the changes will effect it.

[trickyrick]

xSONOHx, on 11 May 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

Wait, did people really call IS mechs OP? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!

Edit: You can prove that the IS is OP to me by finding at least one IS assault mech in the game that can have 4 UAC/20s with 70 rounds and a small laser. Oh wait, only clans have that for now.

Have you EVER seen anyone drop with that in CW? Sounds like a really stupid build to me and a complete waste of a Dire Wolf, Besides, If you bring a DF to CW your pretty much stuck with 2 light and a medium for the rest of your deck.

Edited by trickyrick, 12 May 2015 - 12:43 PM.

[Arkaiko]

CrushLibs, on 12 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fc18ce10e999aeb

Heat Generation 9.15

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5028a0f2434393a

Heat Generation 9.88 - 20% = 7.904

So 9.15 = 7.904 ???? don't think so TIM

dude that **** got 28 double HS...

WHAT THE **** DO U WANT!!!???

[Amsro]

first page is all shocked players, clan and IS alike.

10 tonnes will have no real effect either way, but the thought of nerfing IS due to one week of new map winning is comical.

[Der Hesse]

Amsro, on 12 May 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

first page is all shocked players, clan and IS alike.

10 tonnes will have no real effect either way, but the thought of nerfing IS due to one week of new map winning is comical.

THIS!
Exactly THIS!

[Gumon Choji]

Thank you for making your update have some fluff text. I appreciate it. Please continue to build the environment, mood and general immersion.

Thank you.

[Skaav]

CrushLibs, on 12 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fc18ce10e999aeb

Heat Generation 9.15

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5028a0f2434393a

Heat Generation 9.88 - 20% = 7.904

So 9.15 = 7.904 ???? don't think so TIM

1. You are ignoring Ghost Heat, pls stop calculating if u dont know what u are calculating, new players might get confused
2. That STK 4N Build is an Abomination from the lowest rings of hell, only showing u never actually played a STK 4N, or if u did, u had no clue what u were doing and are obviously not capable of properly judging this mech

Edited by Skaav, 12 May 2015 - 02:13 PM.

[CrushLibs]

Skaav, on 12 May 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

1. You are ignoring Ghost Heat, pls stop calculating if u dont know what u are calculating, new players might get confused
2. That STK 4N Build is an Abomination from the lowest rings of hell, only showing u never actually played a STK 4N, or if u did, u had no clue what u were doing and are obviously not capable of properly judging this mech

1. what ghost heat ?? Stalker shoots 3 LL then 1/2sec later shoots 3 LL then WHK shoots 2 LPL then 2 LPL no GH ,, I guess you are "confused"
2. I have lots of stalkers for about 3 years now. 4N is very quirked and works great in CW.
-------------------------------------------------------

[Adamski]

Technically you can upgrade that stalker to a 300 STD engine and add endo, but the overall balance point remains the same.

[CrushLibs]

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Technically you can upgrade that stalker to a 300 STD engine and add endo, but the overall balance point remains the same.

You are correct I just slapped that together for the heat values I would never run 72 leg armor either.
----------------------------------------------------------
So lets compare two alpha shots

6 - LL 1 sec duration + (3.25 cooldown - .65sec quirk) + .5sec GH = 4.1 cycle time + .5sec GH = 108 damage in 4.6 secs.

4 LPL 1.12 secs duration + 3.25 cool down + .5sec GH = 4.87 cycle time + .5sec GH =104 damage in 5.37 secs

DPS Stalker = 23.47 with 2 alpha shots
DPS WHK = 19.36 with 2 alpha shots

Time to overheat according to smurfy WHK 22 secs STK 20 secs

STK = 20 secs - .5 for GH cycle / 3.6 secs = 5 alpha (5.41)
WHK = 22 sec - .5 for GH cycle / 4.37 secs = 4 alpha (4.91)

So the stalker with 20 DHS and energy weapons that generate more heat 42 vs 40 but can alpha more and damage more than a WHK with 28 DHS and with range quirk of 20% both are close on range.

Costs STK 10 million WHK 17.6 million cbills

So very balanced indeed

Edited by CrushLibs, 12 May 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[Ace Selin]

So instead of adding incentives for people to play as Clanners you shaft everyone by reducing IS dropdecks, when clearly going by Tuk and all other stats im aware of, the Clans have predominantly beaten IS. LOL way to not know why your game is in the state it is.

Edited by Ace Selin, 12 May 2015 - 03:47 PM.