757 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

Fireing Ion Cannons!! I-I mean large lasers.



typically i use a kit fox mist lynx Tbr and SCR somtimes I change up one of the lights to an ice ferret.

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 May 2015 - 01:12 PM.

[Ano]

Unit47, on 20 May 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

But since you asked the answer is 3x RVN 3L, 2x Huggins in the 8v8 division out of ~200 games total (6 matches, best of 3/unit). All teams using them ended in the lower end of the scoreboard/or did switch to FS against higher tier competitors.

In the 4v4 division the numbers are slightly higher due a higher number of newer teams competing. Again all teams using them ended in the lower end of the scoreboard or switched to FS during the season.

But does that actually indicate the other chassis are useless, or just not the best?

I'm not a competitive player personally, but what I know of competitive play in this and in other PvP games is that the top-tier teams (and those who aspire to top-team) will chase any advantage, no matter how small. So if one mech (or class, or spec, or whatever) was even 1% more effective than the others (in a given category), they would all use that mech (or whatever). I imagine this is particularly prevalent in MWO, as there isn't all that much difference between the chassis when you think about it -- the controls are the same, and if you use the same weapon systems in different mechs, the targeting etc is the same.

That's why I think you have to be at least a bit careful about declaring balance broken, or a given mech OP based on top-tier teams.

[045]

The quirks for TImber Wolf and Stormcrow hurt the laser boats the least and the non meta mechs the most. Stock Stormcrow used to be a fun, usable mech. Now it's much harder to use and the streak boating is unaffected. So this quirk pass will lower the variety of configs we see. Streak-crow rushes against Thunderbolts.

[KursedVixen]

two streak 6 and two streak 4's are a good combo in my opinion add a small pulse to the head because it's not effected much by the quirks and you got yourself one mean stormie. but yeah this will limit variety specially for newer players. Because the lasers are the lightest weapon you can carry next to a machine gun.

[IraqiWalker]

Unit47, on 20 May 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Ah you can't win the argument and now you are buggering off. Pathetic.

Not really, in reality I was just too lazy to do the leg work, and I figured you're too bone headed to let this go, and try to show superiority in some silly way.

Thank you for both doing the leg work, and proving what I was saying.

Unit47, on 20 May 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

But since you asked the answer is 3x RVN 3L, 2x Huggins in the 8v8 division out of ~200 games total (6 matches, best of 3/unit). All teams using them ended in the lower end of the scoreboard/or did switch to FS against higher tier competitors.

In the 4v4 division the numbers are slightly higher due a higher number of newer teams competing. Again all teams using them ended in the lower end of the scoreboard or switched to FS during the season.

Yep, I sure am seeing at least 2 other mechs that are not the RVN-2X. Which, at the end of the day, proves my argument that with the 2X not being the uber best, we still have more than ONE viable competitive mech.

[Repasy Cooper]

Unit47, on 20 May 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

I guess thats why every PVP game with commercial success doesn't balance for the casual majority but for the competitive minority.

But hey you better tell Blizzard, Valve and Riot before they need shutdown the servers tomorrow.

There are plenty of competitive players who are not in outcry over this nerf..

[KursedVixen]

and there are plenty of players who asked for refunds which means less money for PGI. which i think should be the biggest thing here.

[Vajhra]

Gave it a short, but the beam duration's do sort of defeat the nature of the Clan mech to hit and run, which sort of makes it feel like you're just being used for target practise for the slower & more survivable IS mechs. Just my opinion, feels like holding a torch up asking to be shot... stupid Clan nerfs, cannot speak to the IS ones.

Edited by Vajhra, 20 May 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[KursedVixen]

I officially dub the large lasers on a stomcrow prime ion cannons becuase they last so long they remind me of the Command and conquer ion cannons same color too ,but less damage.


i agree about the torch. lasers were always HEY look at me ,but now their more like HEY look at me with a 10,000 KW spotlight

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 May 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Vajhra, on 20 May 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Gave it a short, but the beam duration's do sort of defeat the nature of the Clan mech to hit and run, which sort of makes it feel like you're just being used for target practise for the slower & more survivable IS mechs. Just my opinion, feels like holding a torch up asking to be shot... stupid Clan nerfs, cannot speak to the IS ones.

Pretty sure hit-and-run is not the clans MO. Especially not in MWO. Hit and run is based around burst, and PPFLD. The clans are more about long range staring contests. Hit and run is more IS style.

[Sevronis]

The point I noticed said pretty often was how PGI is doing this to promote the new Clan pack...I just can't see it myself. Then again, perhaps they just didn't need a reason to promote it to me for two reasons:

1. Ebon Jaguar is my 2nd favorite heavy, after the Timber
2. Shadow Cat is my favorite medium

Soon as I saw those two, I wanted it, regardless of what they came with. Could I have just done A La Carte? Sure, but I am also a mech collector. So me personally, I could care less if these quirk changes to the Timber and Crow turned out to be a gimmick for the pack, I got it anyway.

As far as what I saw on some posts concerning meta, while there are good and bad builds based on tring them out, who is to say what the 'proper' loadout is? For starters the 'proper' loadout for a mech is actually stock, as it was designed. So, no one can consider a meta build to be 'proper'. However, the main reason many stock builds are considered crap for MWO are because they were ultimately designed for the tabletop, where you didn't need to min-max because it was all a game of chance when you rolled the dice. For MWO, many of those got changed and of course being FPS it brings out the min-maxers whose builds end up getting seen as the 'best' builds so therefore are the 'proper' ones. Sure, they perform as intended, but then what this does is put many players in the mindset that they cannot hope to "git gud" unless they use these very same builds as well. So then diversity fades away, leaving those that still want to play the game to have fun, with non-meta builds, in the dust. I also remember seeing in an earlier post about it being more about the pilots, than the mech itself. I've always felt that it is not the mech you pilot, but it is the pilot themselves. Sure some mechs may be harder to be competitive with than others, but I have even seen some games where one of those mechs did some pretty decent damage compared to the rest of the group. The Locust for example. Probably not everyone's first choice to compete with, but those players who play lights all the time will do better in that Locust than someone who doesn't. I've always considered myself terrible with lights cause I just don't have that snap reflex they need, especially when moving at those high speeds. Heavies and Assaults are more my thing. As for using the meta builds, I've tried it before, and they didn't impress me, nor did it even improve my games any. I'm not the best pilot out there either, but I at least know I've improved greatly from how I used to be. Any the point is, when meta builds are involved, it seems to make competitive players think they have the right to critique your loadout and your playstyle, your performance in general, or even as far as limiting to what you can use if you drop with them. Just makes it not as fun after that.

Anyway, I have seen a couple posts that the Timber and Crow are still performing well even after the changes, so I will test it outself now that I have a chance. Doesn't matter what they do to the Timber, I'll still use it, for it has been my favorite since I first played it in MW2.

[Vajhra]

IraqiWalker, on 20 May 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Pretty sure hit-and-run is not the clans MO. Especially not in MWO. Hit and run is based around burst, and PPFLD. The clans are more about long range staring contests. Hit and run is more IS style.

That sort fits the bill for an IS perspective, where hit and run is a brawling tactic.... while Clan hit and run is ranged flanking maneuvers where the longer ranged weapons, higher mech speed but lower armor means it can contrast to the more Roman-esk maneuver of the IS armor and cooling.

The IS do the same thing with lights, but that is more organically supportive of the main effort to distract and gather intel, while the Clan medium doing it is a distraction and shaping effort to probe and fracture.

The Clan 'staring' is a result of the CW map design which limits the Clan into channels.

Just my opinion of course, but from that these nerf's defeat the entire point of Clan warfighting and just make them vulnerable seemingly because the IS complained about having their quirks wound back.... as increasing the range of the IS lasers also defeats the dynamic as I see it. I think the IS just should keep the ERPPC and superior AC as the counter to Clan laser range advantage.

Otherwise PGI will just keep leveling things until both IS and Clan have the same capabilities leading to equivalent playstyles which then destroys the opportunity to have two unique battle cultures duking it out.

Edited by Vajhra, 20 May 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

IraqiWalker, on 20 May 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Pretty sure hit-and-run is not the clans MO. Especially not in MWO. Hit and run is based around burst, and PPFLD. The clans are more about long range staring contests. Hit and run is more IS style.

It depends on how you're running your mechs. When I first picked up my clan pack, I had 3 chassis... Stormcrow x3, Timberwolf x3, and Warhawk x3. I instantly hated all of them because I couldn't play them effectively at standoff range. The best weapons either were ineffective, ran too hot, or had too long of a duration. I've tweaked or outright changed all of my builds since coming back to the game, and nearly all of those mechs are now focused on closer range fights. I'm using the relative speed of the 3 chassis to get in closer, dropping most long range lasers for shorter pulse lasers. Stormcrows are especially good for hit and run tactics if you load them right (I have a D with 3x SRM6 and a spread of lasers no larger than medium), and Timberwolves are good for flanking and engaging in brawls in an off side... good for ambush. I hated my Warhawks most of all, even though they were my favorites back in the day, but I've got a new fondness for them with more straight up brawling builds, or as ranged support. 9 builds... all very different... not one running meta. But all largely focused on either hit-and-run, close-and-brawl, or ranged support tactics. Sadly, even though none of my TBRs or SCRs are laser focused (less my SCR-Prime which has no choice), they're all worse now thanks to these silly quirks.

[IraqiWalker]

Vajhra, on 20 May 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

That sort fits the bill for an IS perspective, where hit and run is a brawling tactic.... while Clan hit and run is ranged flanking maneuvers where the longer ranged weapons, higher mech speed but lower armor means it can contrast to the more Roman-esk maneuver of the IS armor and cooling.

The IS do the same thing with lights, but that is more organically supportive of the main effort to distract and gather intel, while the Clan medium doing it is a distraction and shaping effort to probe and fracture.

The Clan 'staring' is a result of the CW map design which limits the Clan into channels.

Just my opinion of course, but from that these nerf's defeat the entire point of Clan warfighting and just make them vulnerable seemingly because the IS complained about having their quirks wound back.... as increasing the range of the IS lasers also defeats the dynamic as I see it. I think the IS just should keep the ERPPC and superior AC as the counter to Clan laser range advantage.

Otherwise PGI will just keep leveling things until both IS and Clan have the same capabilities leading to equivalent playstyles which then destroys the opportunity to have two unique battle cultures duking it out.

I love almost everything about your post there. Sound analysis, concise points. No frothing at the mouth rage. It's beautiful.

One thing I would note about the "staring". It has (in my opinion) more to do with the burst fire mechanic on ACs, and longer burn duration on lasers, than it does with map design.

ScarecrowES, on 20 May 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

It depends on how you're running your mechs. When I first picked up my clan pack, I had 3 chassis... Stormcrow x3, Timberwolf x3, and Warhawk x3. I instantly hated all of them because I couldn't play them effectively at standoff range. The best weapons either were ineffective, ran too hot, or had too long of a duration. I've tweaked or outright changed all of my builds since coming back to the game, and nearly all of those mechs are now focused on closer range fights. I'm using the relative speed of the 3 chassis to get in closer, dropping most long range lasers for shorter pulse lasers. Stormcrows are especially good for hit and run tactics if you load them right (I have a D with 3x SRM6 and a spread of lasers no larger than medium), and Timberwolves are good for flanking and engaging in brawls in an off side... good for ambush. I hated my Warhawks most of all, even though they were my favorites back in the day, but I've got a new fondness for them with more straight up brawling builds, or as ranged support. 9 builds... all very different... not one running meta. But all largely focused on either hit-and-run, close-and-brawl, or ranged support tactics. Sadly, even though none of my TBRs or SCRs are laser focused (less my SCR-Prime which has no choice), they're all worse now thanks to these silly quirks.

ANOTHER great post!??!? This is like seeing a double rainbow on these forums.

I think PGI either borked the announcement post, or the implementation of the quirks for the patch.

[Pihoqahiak]

KursedVixen, on 20 May 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

and there are plenty of players who asked for refunds which means less money for PGI. which i think should be the biggest thing here.

The most damaging aspect of this patch is the very evident negative impact to consumer confidence. That will hurt the company, and shortly thereafter, the game. It was quite obvious that it was a knee-jerk reaction nerf to the Timberwolves and Stormcrows and was not a thoroughly thought out quirk pass as it should have been. There was no attempt to make the quirk changes add a variety of feel to different omnipods and combinations as was done with the other omnimechs and the fact that the Stormcrow B head omnipod negative quirk made it all the way to patch deployment was a glaring indication of just how little thought and effort they put into the changes. At this point though, the damage has been done. It will be quite difficult for PGI to recover that lost consumer confidence from many of it's customers, and they very likely will lose many customers completely. So many people on these forums just don't grasp the concept of how tenuous a position this game is in. The player base is VERY small. So small that the purchases of the mech packages they release are critical to keeping it afloat, and that is exactly where this hit to consumer confidence is being (and will continue to be) felt. PGI really needs to start being far more thoughtful with their changes to purchased content and, well, get their **** straight to be blunt (as in, pay better attention to detail, no letting amateur mistakes like the Stormcrow B head quirks, or CW map changes removing the gates, etc. somehow slip through the cracks). or none of us will have this game to play for very long.

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 21 May 2015 - 05:04 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Pihoqahiak, on 21 May 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

The most damaging aspect of this patch is the very evident negative impact to consumer confidence. That will hurt the company, and shortly thereafter, the game. It was quite obvious that it was a knee-jerk reaction nerf to the Timberwolves and Stormcrows and was not a thoroughly thought out quirk pass as it should have been, There was no attempt to make the quirk changes add a variety of feel to different omnipods and combinations as was done with the other omnimechs and the fact the the Stormcrow B head omnipod negative quirk made it all the way to patch deployment was a glaring indication of just how little thought and effort they put into the changes. At this point though, the damage has been done. It will be quite difficult for PGI to recover that lost consumer confidence from many of it's customers, and they very likely will lose many customers completely. So many people on these forums just don't grasp the concept of how tenuous a position this game is in. The player base is VERY small. So small that the purchases of the mech packages they release are critical to keeping it afloat, and that is exactly where this hit to consumer confidence is being (and will continue to be) felt. PGI really needs to start being far more thoughtful with their changes to purchased content and, well, get their **** straight to be blunt (as in, pay better attention to detail, no letting amateur mistakes like the Stormcrow B head quirks, or CW map changes removing the gates, etc. somehow slip through the cracks). or none of us will have this game to play for very long.

Which part of this was knee jerk? Those nerfs came at least 6 months too late. The calls for dealing with the T-Wolf and the SCR have been actually around since they first poped up.

Also, I need to raise a very important point here: NO ONE paid to have OP mechs, people paid to have EARLY ACCESS to these mechs. Everyone has full knowledge that almost all mechs come out a bit strong when they are first release, partly due to lack of proper testing, and partly because it helps with sales. However, we've all seen this coming since the days of early beta, and before.

It's the same with literally every other MMO game out there. League releases champions after far more testing, and they still end up a bit on the OP side for the most part. Takes them at least a month or two before the champion is dialed back down.

Same with DoTA. Same with Fractured Space, same with WoT, and WarThunder (World of tanks have on several occasions nerfed some of their more OP premium tanks. In fact, World of Tanks is a very P2W game in comparison to MWO, and most others in the industry).

I don't personally agree with which quirks were used (I would have preferred cooldown increase, over burn duration, for example), but honestly, every single mech listed in that announcement needed the nerf. The Stalker was ridiculous, So were the Firestarters, and Ravens.

People really need to understand that these mechs needed the nerf.

They also need to drill it into their heads, that they are not paying for an exclusive premium mech when they buy the package. They're getting EARLY ACCESS to mechs that everyone will have available.

Do you think that someone who bought the SCR with C-Bills has less of a reason to be upset about these nerfs, and their consumer confidence shouldn't be impacted because they didn't buy it with real money?

They probably cared less about the nerfs than those that forked over real money, but in all honesty, those that paid real money, and those that used C-Bills are in the same boat, and no one that paid money should be complaining about the fact that they paid real money for these mechs.

If money is the main factor, they really shouldn't complain, they only paid to get the mechs early. Not to get a super duper variant that doesn't exist in the game for C-Bills.

For the record, this is coming from someone who's got the Overlord package, a few hero mechs, and was an early adopter of Wave 1 of clan mechs.

[Pihoqahiak]

IraqiWalker, on 20 May 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Pretty sure hit-and-run is not the clans MO. Especially not in MWO. Hit and run is based around burst, and PPFLD. The clans are more about long range staring contests. Hit and run is more IS style.

You really don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of the Clan and Inner Sphere mechs then. Well built Inner Sphere mechs are much more capable of ranged exchanges than Clan mechs. They have better hardpoint locations, equal or better range due to quirks, do their damage much more quickly allowing torso twisting and moving to cover, and generate less heat allowing higher sustainable dps. The problem seen repeatedly is that many players will try to use the WRONG Inner Sphere mechs for long range builds and then blame Clan technology for their failures. Both factions have mechs that are well suited to fast moving and/or hit and run tactics, although the Clan mechs that stand out in that regard the most are some of their heavier mechs since they have such large engines that they move very quickly for their weight class and are still able to mount a very efficient array of closer range/brawler weaponry.

[IraqiWalker]

Pihoqahiak, on 21 May 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

You really don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of the Clan and Inner Sphere mechs then. Well built Inner Sphere mechs are much more capable of ranged exchanges than Clan mechs. They have better hardpoint locations, equal or better range due to quirks, do their damage much more quickly allowing torso twisting and moving to cover, and generate less heat allowing higher sustainable dps. The problem seen repeatedly is that many players will try to use the WRONG Inner Sphere mechs for long range builds and then blame Clan technology for their failures. Both factions have mechs that are well suited to fast moving and/or hit and run tactics, although the Clan mechs that stand out in that regard the most are some of their heavier mechs since they have such large engines that they move very quickly for their weight class and are still able to mount a very efficient array of closer range/brawler weaponry.

No, I have a solid grasp of both. You just don't know that the real edge the IS has in PP FLD weaponry, and most of that is in the short range weapons business (MLs, SPLs, MPLs, AC20, AC10, and SRMs). Sure, the IS has a few quirked out mechs that can compete with clan at range, but I wasn't talking about competing, I was talking about excellence. IS mechs EXCEL at short range hit and run attacks, because all of our short range weapons have short burn durations, high burst damage with minimal time on target, and that allows us to twist better, and expose ourselves from cover for shorter times, which all translates to better close range hit and run tactics. Especially when coupled with clan tech being a bit on the toasty side in the close range department (more clan mechs need to use SLs and SPLs, seriously. Those weapons have great range, and low heat. I would never pick a C-ERML, when I can go with C-ERSPL, C-ERSL, and C-ERMPL, which all perform better than the ER-ML at medium, and short range engagements. Seriously, check the numbers on the ERSPL, ERSL, and ERMPL compared to the ERML
(Don't forget that the ERMPL costs 2 tons compared to the 1 of the ERML)

Spoiler

ERML:
 
Damage: 7
 
Heat: 6
 
CD: 3 seconds
 
Range: 405-810
 
Duration: 1.15

ERSPL:
 
Damage: 6
 
Heat: 3!
 
CD: 2.25
 
Range: 165-330
 
Duration: 0.75!
 
(Same slots, and tonnage, but half the heat for almost the same damage, delivered faster if you are close)

ERSL:
 

Damage: 5
 
Heat: 3!
 
CD: 2.25
 
Range: 200-400
 
Duration: 1.00!
 
(Half the tonnage cost)

ERMPL:
 

Damage: 8
 
Heat: 6
 
CD: 3.00
 
Range: 330-660!
 
Duration: 0.85!
 

These are all great close in weapons, that should be mounted on short range builds instead of the bloody ERML, and ERLL.

Even when using the ERLL, as long as it's not the most OP chassis in the clan arsenal, you're gonna be doing fine, since almost nothing reaches you, short of one or two quirked out IS variants, everything else will under-range you.

You do highlight an important problem: Clan players also need to know how to build their mechs right. It's been a huge problem from day 1. Most of them just jam as many weapons into the thing as possible. Why go for the pod with 2 energy hardpoints when you can go for the one with four, right? Probably because the pod with 2 is gonna allow you to put more DHS in, making your mech cooler, and giving you better Damage, and performance over all. Most people don't see that, and only think about slapping the most guns on the mech, and then complain about the heat, when by all rights, their mech should have exploded the second they pulled the trigger.

[Pihoqahiak]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

It's the same with literally every other MMO game out there. League releases champions after far more testing, and they still end up a bit on the OP side for the most part. Takes them at least a month or two before the champion is dialed back down.

That is a poor example to try and support your view with as LoL makes the majority of it's income from purchases of cosmetics vs. the playable content (Heroes). It is quite the opposite for MW:O.

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

People really need to understand that these mechs needed the nerf.

Most knowledgeable and experienced players agree that A nerf was needed for the Timberwolf and Stormcrow, just not the nerf that they implemented.

[IraqiWalker]

Pihoqahiak, on 21 May 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

That is a poor example to try and support your view with as LoL makes the majority of it's income from purchases of cosmetics vs. the playable content (Heroes). It is quite the opposite for MW:O.

MWO makes most of it's money from the purchase of mechbays, premium time, Heroes and cosmetics as well.
LoL makes a lot of money from the purchase of RP, which is also used to unlock champions, since the grind is ungodly there as well.

Pihoqahiak, on 21 May 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

Most knowledgeable and experienced players agree that A nerf was needed for the Timberwolf and Stormcrow, just not the nerf that they implemented.

I am of that opinion, I also said I don't agree with the nerfs used (also, there have been several reports of the nerfs being quite frankly ineffective. Though that comes from people that aren't playing pure lazervomit). They did make it so that people aren't running pure energy boats on those two mechs without a penalty (let's face it, there really wasn't much of a penalty for running excessive lasers on those mechs, even with the heat).