154 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Torgun, on 17 May 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Yeah because a majority of the player base want to run clearly inferior mechs, that's why we see the worst mechs being run most often..... oh..... guess that won't work then. Like we already understood last year, but thanks for trying.

According to this logic IS would not outnumber Clans, but they clearly did, by 50%, even after allowing the exodus.

[InRev]

ArchAngelWC, on 17 May 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

but why should Battletech bend to you instead of you bending to Battletech
After all Battletech is not choosing to play you (unless you count what PGI does to backers) but you are choosing to play a game based on Battletech

BatleTech was not a game where the player controlled one single mech but rather lances or companies of mechs. Crappy mechs in BT were balanced by cost and numbers. It wasn't a problem because each player had a full arsenal at his or her disposal.

However, when the player controls just one mech in a TDM scenario, it's unreasonable, unrealistic and honestly just insanely stupid game design to expect people to be cannon fodder. This is why lights have to be somehow competitive with assaults, with the differentiation being in playstyle. BTs system of "bigger is almost universally better" does not translate well to a game in which each player controls just one mech. MechWarrior is not an RTS, a squad based tactical strategy game, a turn based strategy game, etc etc etc. Therefore BattleTech has to bend to the genre.

[Dirus Nigh]

ArchAngelWC, on 17 May 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

incorrect..I want Clan tech to go back to being Clan tech...
It's only better than IS tech for a minute if you actually go look at BT...one of the consequences of the invasion getting jammed on the sheer numbers the IS could field is the IS reverse engineered Clan tech...

And you show your ignorance of battletech. I've played it for 20 years. Clan tech is hands down better than IS tech. Range, damage, weight, and crit slots. It was a huge leap in power that upset the game. It's so bad that even Weismen and Bills have said multiple times that if they could do it over again they would have done it differently.

A clan XL engine is not equal to an IS XL engine. A clan ER med laser is not equal to an IS med laser. Its not even equal to an IS large laser.

Again just another clan player wanting his magic toys from table top.

[Torgun]

ArchAngelWC, on 17 May 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

I did...also played megamek, was an admin for planetary campaigns in MC and MW3/4 and a HoF player for Starlance MW4

I still love Battletech...hence why I am still here...dealing with people who dont and just want another "shooter"

Nice edit, but let's face it. You play as Clans and want your weapons and mechs to be better than the IS mechs so you can kill more of them than they can kill you. That sure sounds like a noble act of preserving Battletech. Heck I'd even join you and shoot some fish in the barrel, sounds like a great idea. Now go out there and find people to be all those fish, because beside Joseph and a couple of his roleplayers, we'd run out of fish to shoot. Then what?

Edited by Torgun, 17 May 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[jlawsl]

I find the current negative quirks kind of weird because the don't fix what the underlying problem is with all four chassis. It isn't that the weapons themselves were overpowered on the mechs, its that their size to weight, hit boxes and hit reg are all messed up. A Timberwolf is way too small for its size compared to other 75 ton mechs and it has hit boxes that make it pretty annoying to deal with. The Stormcrow is properly sized, still, its smaller then most of its IS counterparts and its clan contemporary, the nova, but it still has magic hit reg issues that don't register proper damage and hit boxes that make it as hard to kill as a lot of heavies or assaults. The Firestarter is a crazy blob of way too many weapons for its size, with hard point inflation, and some of the most annoying hit reg issues in recent memory. The Stalker is a walking brick with far fewer issues as the others, as it is slow, has horrible torso traverse, horrible arm range of motion, but it still has hit boxes that make it one of the hardest assaults to crack head to head.

So, the mechs are nerfed in some way, but all it does is treat the symptom and not the illness. The Stalker quirks bring it more in line with most other mechs of its size, but still begged the question-why does it need so many quirks to begin with? It is, and always has been one of the best, easiest to play and forgiving assaults in the game, whether you are a beginner or a veteran. Quirks were made, in my understanding, to bring under performing mechs in line with others. Or at least give some validity to tt standards which certain mechs were built around, like the Awsome's PPCs. That being said, they have given over the top quirks to mech that never needed them. Like Firestarters. With 8 hardpoints on a few models and jump jets, along with great hit boxes and broken hit detection, why did this thing ever get anything beyond some 2.5-5% buffs on stuff? It can already boat weapons better then some mechs twice its size.

Timberwolves and Stormcrows need fixed, not negatively quirked. When I play my stormcrow, I can survive some pretty crazy stuff, that would get a lot of assaults killed. That isn't going to be fixed by extending the beam duration of a few lasers. But on a funnier note-clan whined for something and got it, IS whined for something and got it. I guess there are really no reasons to be pissed off.

Edited by jlawsl, 17 May 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[ArchAngelWC]

InRev, on 17 May 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

BatleTech was not a game where the player controlled one single mech but rather lances or companies of mechs. Crappy mechs in BT were balanced by cost and numbers. It wasn't a problem because each player had a full arsenal at his or her disposal.

However, when the player controls just one mech in a TDM scenario, it's unreasonable, unrealistic and honestly just insanely stupid game design to expect people to be cannon fodder. This is why lights have to be somehow competitive with assaults, with the differentiation being in playstyle. BTs system of "bigger is almost universally better" does not translate well to a game in which each player controls just one mech. MechWarrior is not an RTS, a squad based tactical strategy game, a turn based strategy game, etc etc etc. Therefore BattleTech has to bend to the genre.

https://youtu.be/0pyCsu0QRO0
Ummm in Battletech you often got pawned by underestimating that light..
particularly if the light mech had a good pilot who watched your movement and exploited the crap out of it...
and when that doesnt work...headshots, stackpoles, etc etc you know what made it fun...
l

Dirus Nigh, on 17 May 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

And you show your ignorance of battletech. I've played it for 20 years. Clan tech is hands down better than IS tech. Range, damage, weight, and crit slots. It was a huge leap in power that upset the game. It's so bad that even Weismen and Bills have said multiple times that if they could do it over again they would have done it differently.

A clan XL engine is not equal to an IS XL engine. A clan ER med laser is not equal to an IS med laser. Its not even equal to an IS large laser.

Again just another clan player wanting his magic toys from table top.

and you show your reading comprehension skills
I mean you quoted what I said...but did you read it
"incorrect..I want Clan tech to go back to being Clan tech...
It's only better than IS tech for a minute if you actually go look at BT...one of the consequences of the invasion getting jammed on the sheer numbers the IS could field is the IS reverse engineered Clan tech..."
ie
What happened after the invasion...
RAC20...yah clearly inferior to clan tech
HGR...wait...wtf
etc etc
look at the mechs the IS produced after the Invasion....I mean...Damnn they are sexy I'd like to IIC those lol

Edited by ArchAngelWC, 17 May 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Alienized]

Yokaiko, on 17 May 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

lasercrow only carries 12 tons of weapons, it has a whopping 22 tons of pod space with full armor, like wise, Timber at 27 tons. carries around 16

I have IS mechs that carry significantly more weight in weapons, my Phract -2X carries 26 tons of weapons and another 5 tons of ammo

does your phract have XL? how fast is it?
how heavy are the IS weapons compared to clan weapons?
you are seeing just weapon tonnage and not everything else.
thats why alot of people fail to have a sense for balance.
its always the combination on everything that counts.

[Torgun]

Gyrok, on 17 May 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

According to this logic IS would not outnumber Clans, but they clearly did, by 50%, even after allowing the exodus.

Uhh that's because we actually don't have vastly superior Clan mechs now. Are you even following what we're discussing here?

[Dawnstealer]

I still say balance range against power. Clan mechs should have weapons that cause consistent damage over range. IS weapons should cause more damage, but at shorter range, and with a steeper drop-off.

The IS game should be to get into brawling range, the Clan game should be to play keep away and keep the fight at longer range.

I agree with the nerf/quirk ideas: some tweaks should be made to make IS viable to one another, so a Thud 9S is as good as a 5S for different strengths.

Roleplaying should be encouraged through XP and rewards. Clans shouldn't get either for Assists. They should get huge bonuses for Solo Kills.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd...I already spelled all this out here:

http://mwomercs.com/...iticism-for-cw/

[Yokaiko]

Alienized, on 17 May 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

does your phract have XL? how fast is it?
how heavy are the IS weapons compared to clan weapons?
you are seeing just weapon tonnage and not everything else.
thats why alot of people fail to have a sense for balance.
its always the combination on everything that counts.

There is an AC20 on the Phract, so no XL, think it goes 72, I also have a Grasshopper, x4 mpl x2 LPL it does have the XL, and JJs, and runs 89.9, the XL isn't that huge of a hinderance, because everything hits the CT on a Grasshopper, always. So that joke build Hopper actually tears in the solo queue, I always die but I'll get a kill or two and 600 damage first.

[xe N on]

ArchAngelWC, on 17 May 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

Just a simple request


Instead of adding quirks, ghost heat, etc etc etc yada yada yada

perhaps you could just you know....properly balance the game...


The entire thing in BT is the clans are technologically superior, they just are....

In fact, the Clan vs IS superiority could have been balanced. However, this would have required ALOT of more work and a much more professional and larger developer team. And a complete different concept of introduction of the Clans.

For example, some ideas:

- IS would have given a special ability that would drop supplies that refill all ammunition or repair an defined amount of damage of a mech.

- Airstrike and Artillery would be IS exclusive and would cost nothing (1x per mech per game round)

- IS could call a troop transport, tanks, aircrafts that are AI controlled and could be commanded by a simple attack/retreat order

- IS could have an ability that allows complete reconnaissance (like UAV but complete map) once per game round

etc.

In summary: IS could have given special abilities based on their superior infrastructure and logistics that could have balanced Clan superior technology.

However, this would have excluded mixed IS/Clan team from the beginning.

Edited by xe N on, 17 May 2015 - 07:27 AM.

[-Vompo-]

Giving one side all the superior toys would not work. How do I know? How many summoners you see compared to the timberwolfs?
If none of the Is mechs would stand a chance against a similiar weight clan mech the situation would be comparable to a shooter where the other side is armed with what ever they want and the other team run at them with knives. Sure it may be fun for a few minutes for both sides but soon the knife guys would become bored of not having any chance and just dying constantly and the guys with guns would quit cause there is no challenge.

[Yokaiko]

VompoVompatti, on 17 May 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Giving one side all the superior toys would not work. How do I know? How many summoners you see compared to the timberwolfs?
If none of the Is mechs would stand a chance against a similiar weight clan mech the situation would be comparable to a shooter where the other side is armed with what ever they want and the other team run at them with knives. Sure it may be fun for a few minutes for both sides but soon the knife guys would become bored of not having any chance and just dying constantly and the guys with guns would quit cause there is no challenge.

I already call my -5SS "the timber cutter" I'm quite literally good for about three Timberwolves before it gets taken down.

[Gremlich Johns]

xe N on, on 17 May 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

In summary: IS could have given special abilities based on their superior infrastructure and logistics that could have balanced Clan superior technology.

Then Clan Battlearmors should be allowed as well? Anybody aware of BT knows about the liberal use of "Toads" in the invasion.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 17 May 2015 - 07:24 AM.

[Alienized]

Yokaiko, on 17 May 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

There is an AC20 on the Phract, so no XL, think it goes 72, I also have a Grasshopper, x4 mpl x2 LPL it does have the XL, and JJs, and runs 89.9, the XL isn't that huge of a hinderance, because everything hits the CT on a Grasshopper, always. So that joke build Hopper actually tears in the solo queue, I always die but I'll get a kill or two and 600 damage first.

the hopper is also better than most people say.
im driving it with std engine and med lasers instead of the mpl but also large pulses.
the thing is: the timberwolf has more range. lives longer with its XL.
can still mount more weapons (2 lpl + some srms for example goes nuts on IS mechs in no time)
there is not much a grasshopper can do when such a TBR will appear in front. the phract neither.

a pure laser vomit would have its heat problems but more range so the hopper has to go in near and gets shot down in that time.
the nerf on lasers should cause a wide variety on loadouts on the TBR.
one of mine has 3 med lasers, c-uac10 and srms. works totally fine but so many people are not even trying these things.


now the Thunderbolt will get its nerfs soon as well. and its totally necessary.

[xe N on]

Gremlich Johns, on 17 May 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Then Clan Battlearmors should be allowed as well? Anybody aware of BT knows about the liberal use of "Toads" in the invasion.

Yeah. Clan player could drop as a Elemental instead as a mechwarrior.

Edited by xe N on, 17 May 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[ArchAngelWC]

VompoVompatti, on 17 May 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Giving one side all the superior toys would not work. How do I know? How many summoners you see compared to the timberwolfs?
If none of the Is mechs would stand a chance against a similiar weight clan mech the situation would be comparable to a shooter where the other side is armed with what ever they want and the other team run at them with knives. Sure it may be fun for a few minutes for both sides but soon the knife guys would become bored of not having any chance and just dying constantly and the guys with guns would quit cause there is no challenge.

for maybe one/two cycles the IS would be facing advanced Clan tech in inferior numbers that cant sustain really any casualties...
and then they would balance as it was in BT....(hypothetically if the IS houses were smart enough to put resources into reverse engineering the salvaged clan tech from those one/two cycles...if not...WOOT)

Now if the IS manages to lose the invasion somehow....and I do mean somehow as it has only happened one time in a planetary league since 1996 (Comstar is a Clan basically...why fight)
Well Congrats to the Clanners you have done the nigh impossible (as im pretty sure PGI wont allow political machinations like I used to win )

Edited by ArchAngelWC, 17 May 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[xe N on]

ArchAngelWC, on 17 May 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

for maybe one/two cycles the IS would be facing advanced Clan tech in inferior numbers that cant sustain really any casualties...
and then they would balance as it was in BT....(hypothetically if the IS houses were smart enough to put resources into reverse engineering the salvaged clan tech from those one/two cycles...if not...WOOT)

However, this never is going to happen with PGI. This also would completely exclude mixed team IS/Clan as currently in the non CW queue. It even would not be allow the normal game queue.

Look at the numbers of CW. Population wise CW is already a failure, there are more people interested in playing "counter strike" mixed team then CW.

Edited by xe N on, 17 May 2015 - 07:34 AM.

[ArchAngelWC]

xe N on, on 17 May 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

However, this never is going to happen with PGI. This also would completely exclude mixed team IS/Clan as currently in the non CW queue. It even would not be allow the normal game queue.

Look at the numbers of CW. Population wise CW is already a failure, there are more people interested in playing "counter strike" mixed team then CW.

perhaps this is because they are not appeasing either audience...
for people who want a Shooter...it's not..it's battletech
and for people wanting battletech...its not
its big stompy robots online to appease the people who want a shooter
I would tend to think given it is Mechwarrior online, and a Battletech IP, and there were 70k of us intially who were at least willing to dip our toes into this cesspool...if they accepted they are a Battletech IP and started making a Battletech game we would suddenly notice the population increase...

But then Starlance only had 50k in the mechcommander league...
and around 200k in the MW3/4 leagues...soo I suppose the number of BT gamers is negligble

Hell NEVERON had over 1 million players for a spell...

Edited by ArchAngelWC, 17 May 2015 - 07:41 AM.

[xe N on]

ArchAngelWC, on 17 May 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

But then Starlance only had 50k in the mechcommander league...
and around 200k in the MW3/4 leagues...soo I suppose the number of BT gamers is negligble

It's not simply about player types or player base. It's about the capacities and abilities of the developers, too. With the small staff PGI could never develop a highly complex game. I really don't want to know how many developers working on Star Citizen, that got a gigantic amount of money from kickstarter. And even they are already much behind their original time planning.

Edited by xe N on, 17 May 2015 - 07:50 AM.