133 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Goose, on 21 May 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

If ECM only covers the unit it mounts, then everyone will drive ECM 'Mechs exclusivity, and Teh Devs will be oblivious to it for about 4 months …

That's a ridiculously stupid claim, maybe some people would do that but everybody else would use AMS on their non-ECM mechs (and perhaps even on their ECM mechs) to deal with LRMs (like they should) instead of relying on a jesus box bubble to all but eliminate LRMs as a useful weapon.

Roadkill, on 21 May 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Remove indirect fire from LRMs except when assisted by TAG or NARC.

Fix ECM so that it only works as described in the TT rules. In MWO terms, it would only counter Artemis and Narc, and that's it. LRMs would otherwise be unaffected by ECM.

Problem solved.

So...change ECM to not be a jesus box because it's not like that (for good reason) in Tabletop.

But then butcher LRMs by requiring special gear to spot targets despite that not being how it works in Tabletop.

I'm sensing a logic issue here.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 May 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[Artifact]

Roadkill, on 21 May 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

And that is precisely the problem.

ECM is not a system that needs to be countered. ECM is a counter to other systems. PGI completely screwed it up by making it orders of magnitude more powerful than it should be.

The correct way to fix the problem is to throw out the existing system and implement it the way it should have been implemented from the beginning.

ECM is a counter to Artemis and Narc. That's it. Nothing more. No stealth armor, no delaying lock-ons by LRMs/Streaks. Just a counter to Artemis and Narc. (And C3, but we don't have that system so it doesn't need to be countered.)

LRMs would then need to be rebalanced, but that's as easy as removing their ability to use indirect fire unless supported by TAG or Narc. Might also need to make Narc and Artemis better in order to encourage their use, which would in turn make ECM more necessary in the new world.

Poof. Done. Easy peasy.

I suspect that if LRM IDF mode were able to be toggled or only worked when narced or tagged that it would become much more popular. The real reason no one uses LRMs is because of the horrific amount of time between pulling the trigger and anything landing on the target. Reduce that, at the expense of losing IDF ability, and they'd be good again.

[Firemage]

DancingShade, on 21 May 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Sounds more like a bunch of LRM carriers complaining they can't stay behind a hill all match.

Yes folks, you should probably consider carrying direct fire weapons instead.

Sounds like a ECM junkie who needs a Magic box to make him immune to a third of the weapons in the game, rather than learning how to dodge.

So i've been away for a few months (nothing against MWO just busy in other games) I've always liked mixed load outs, Lasers and ACs for mid range/close in LRMs for long range poking as well as chase down and helping allies out of normal LOS.

But ECM has been the magic unfun box ever since it got in the game, maybe with more mechs running it they will finally nerf it so it doesn't hard counter a third the weapons in the game, also Tag/BAP do not make ECM's god mode powers okay given their limit ranges.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Pjwned, on 22 May 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

That's a ridiculously stupid claim, maybe some people would do that but everybody else would use AMS on their non-ECM mechs (and perhaps even on their ECM mechs) to deal with LRMs (like they should) instead of relying on a jesus box bubble to all but eliminate LRMs as a useful weapon.



So...change ECM to not be a jesus box because it's not like that (for good reason) in Tabletop.

But then butcher LRMs by requiring special gear to spot targets despite that not being how it works in Tabletop.

I'm sensing a logic issue here.

It's more aiming for the functionality that existed in MW4 when it comes to ECM and LRMs I think. That system was relatively balanced and allowed for complex tactics where indirect fire required a "spotter" after a fashion either using TAG or Narc to allow for the indirect fire.

[Moldur]

Bring artemis. Bring TAG. Bring active probe. It's like if you take AMS off a mech. You've just accepted the risk that you could get rained on by LRMs at the gain of an extra 2 tons or so. If you decided to not bring something that counteracts ECM, then you've accepted the risk of being potentially useless against it. Tough luck.

ECM does what it's supposed to do and there are already ways of beating it in the game.

Edited by Moldur, 22 May 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Moldur, on 22 May 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Bring artemis. Bring TAG. Bring active probe. It's like if you take AMS off a mech. You've just accepted the risk that you could get rained on by LRMs at the gain of an extra 2 tons or so. If you decided to not bring something that counteracts ECM, then you've accepted the risk of being potentially useless against it. Tough luck.

ECM does what it's supposed to do and there are already ways of beating it in the game.

Now repeat that 20 times and you believes that artems and tag really counter ecm.

[Pjwned]

Moldur, on 22 May 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Bring artemis. Bring TAG. Bring active probe. It's like if you take AMS off a mech. You've just accepted the risk that you could get rained on by LRMs at the gain of an extra 2 tons or so. If you decided to not bring something that counteracts ECM, then you've accepted the risk of being potentially useless against it. Tough luck.

ECM does what it's supposed to do and there are already ways of beating it in the game.

The irony of bringing up AMS is that nobody brings it because ECM jesus bubble makes AMS un-necessary the vast majority of the time.

ECM does not do what it's supposed to, it's egregiously overpowered for a single piece of equipment that weighs less than 2 tons and apologists thinking it's fine the way it is are delusional.

Additionally, Artemis doesn't do anything against ECM and BAP is only very rarely useful for LRMs because by the time you're in range for it to have an effect (on ECM) your LRMs are pretty much useless due to minimum range.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 May 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Koniks]

Nobody brings AMS because it shoots down ~3 missiles per hardpoint. It's only valuable in a coordinated drop where most of your teammates also bring it. Otherwise there are better things to do with the tonnage and slots.

[Wildstreak]

This has to be a CW thing.

In the Usual Queue, I sometimes see Hellbringers with no ECM, teams with no ECM, I even saw one of the new Cataphracts with no ECM. He took the magic box out?

[Ragtag soldier]

Artifact, on 22 May 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

I suspect that if LRM IDF mode were able to be toggled or only worked when narced or tagged that it would become much more popular. The real reason no one uses LRMs is because of the horrific amount of time between pulling the trigger and anything landing on the target. Reduce that, at the expense of losing IDF ability, and they'd be good again.

even with indirect fire LRMs need a velocity boost. the only time they're a reliable weapons now is when firing on a slow/legged enemy that your teammates are firing on, which is pointless.

[Mcgral18]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 22 May 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

I wonder witch idiot first sad that we have angel ecm in this game.

The Magic Jesus Box does contain some elements of Angel ECM, and Guardian ECM, Stealth Armour along with some magic fairy dust.


It's a wonderful bargain.

[Chuck Jager]

Ragtag soldier, on 22 May 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

even with indirect fire LRMs need a velocity boost. the only time they're a reliable weapons now is when firing on a slow/legged enemy that your teammates are firing on, which is pointless.

Buy the target Retention module 1 lock == at least one full salvo to target unless at range that you are not helping team. If you do not have this module your damage can easily be cut in half some games

[Pjwned]

Mizeur, on 22 May 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Nobody brings AMS because it shoots down ~3 missiles per hardpoint. It's only valuable in a coordinated drop where most of your teammates also bring it. Otherwise there are better things to do with the tonnage and slots.

And yet if people couldn't rely on jesus bubbles to save them from LRMs all the time they would bring AMS more, and after the ammo per ton was buffed there's even less excuse to not bring it; there's even less excuse than that if you know you're facing clan mechs since their LRMs are a lot more vulnerable to AMS.

Ragtag soldier, on 22 May 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

even with indirect fire LRMs need a velocity boost. the only time they're a reliable weapons now is when firing on a slow/legged enemy that your teammates are firing on, which is pointless.

No they don't, LRMs move plenty fast for what they are, and when they moved at 175 m/s rather than 160 m/s that was too fast.

At most there should maybe be a few mechs with a small missile velocity quirk, and nothing beyond that because it's already proven to be a delicate issue. What LRMs need more than velocity is to make ECM not be a jesus box, and if you need better LRMs beyond that then get TAG and/or Artemis.

Chuck YeaGurr, on 22 May 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Buy the target Retention module 1 lock == at least one full salvo to target unless at range that you are not helping team. If you do not have this module your damage can easily be cut in half some games

The reason that the target decay module is so important for LRMs is that radar deprivation is way out of line and reduces target decay by 2x as much (arguably more) as it should.

Edited by Pjwned, 24 May 2015 - 08:58 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Pjwned, on 24 May 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

The reason that the target decay module is so important for LRMs is that radar deprivation is way out of line and reduces target decay by 2x as much (arguably more) as it should.

radar derp simply reduces the base decay from 2 seconds to 0... 2*0 is still 0 :3

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Tombstoner, on 21 May 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

This is such a known quantified problem that dates back to day one of ECM release.... what happens when all the mechs have ECM. ECM as it exists is here to stay. its been basically unchanged for years. The only changes have been to other systems to help balance things out.

As they said for the first several months "working as intended"

I dont get how we played the game without getting destroyed by missiles before ECM existed (I didnt run AMS even then)

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 24 May 2015 - 08:12 PM.

[Eider]

I would rather just have the ability to shoot missiles down myself.

[Navy Sixes]

If PGI stays true to form, I would expect this run on ECM-equipped mechs to herald big changes for the magic jesus box coming soon.

[Pjwned]

bad arcade kitty, on 24 May 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

radar derp simply reduces the base decay from 2 seconds to 0... 2*0 is still 0 :3

Yes, that's my point, eliminating the base decay of 2 seconds with 1 module is ridiculous and its effect should be half as much or even less, meaning it should only reduce target decay by 1 second or even less than 1 second.

Seismic sensor was toned down because it was out of line and radar deprivation needs the same treatment.

[CocoaJin]

The funniest thing is to see ECM mechs scurry after being NARCed. It's an instant ECM jammer that also brings the attention of LRMs boats and their missiles onto the once hidden enemy mech.

It's amazing how a team begins to fall apart as their ECM umbrella darts off in done random direction. Especially when they don't know their ECM is running for the hills because of the rain of LRM falling on them.

[ShinVector]

Pjwned, on 24 May 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

The reason that the target decay module is so important for LRMs is that radar deprivation is way out of line and reduces target decay by 2x as much (arguably more) as it should.

Some people might forget that Target Decay was a counter for ECM and it was out for a long time before Radar Derp came about.

During that time LRM cheese ridiculous homing long range missiles combine with LRMs who speed was suddenly to nearly doubled.
Target decay combine with high speed LRM BS made it possible those damn to things chase you through corners...

Anyway L2A/L2P stop relying on homing weapons...
I am sorry to those how have 'valid' reasons like low fps but other people with no fps issues just love to cheese letting their whole team die in the process........ 'I am a support mech !' In an assault or a heavy ? Only to be killed my a light at the end of the game ? Well whatever..

--

Finally get rid of Target Decay and you can get rid of Radar Derp.

Edited by ShinVector, 24 May 2015 - 10:01 PM.