244 replies to this topic

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

prepare to be underwhelmed anywhere outside Puglandia.

Don't worry, I go in knowing this.

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

It really isn't.

Clan Heavies are without fail

TBR
HBR
EBJ
MDD
SMN

in that order.

Because the MDDs firepower far outstrips the SMNs survivability.

It will be that order in a month and 2 days lol.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 23 May 2015 - 09:52 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

It really isn't.

Clan Heavies are without fail

TBR
HBR
MDD
SMN

in that order.

Because the MDDs firepower far outstrips the SMNs survivability.

No, it really is, the Mad Dog's firepower is only useful if you can keep it, which most of the time is stripped with ease.

[Templar Dane]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

It really isn't.

Clan Heavies are without fail

TBR
HBR
MDD
SMN

in that order.

Because the MDDs firepower far outstrips the SMNs survivability.

I'd argue that the HBR should be at the top, ECM > jumpjets

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

Yes, on IS Mechs that can't use C-XL.

Because at no point is being twice the weight, to run 1-2 MLasers, is superior to being able pack that much more firepower until becoming a stick.

At least the choice is there.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 23 May 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

No, it really is, the Mad Dog's firepower is only useful if you can keep it, which most of the time is stripped with ease.

so no firepower for an extended period is preferable to heavy firepower for a shorter time. INteresting. You and I must play a very different game. Not to mention virtually every other Clan Player would run a MDD over an SMN.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

so no firepower for an extended period is preferable to heavy firepower for a shorter time. INteresting. You and I must play a very different game. Not to mention virtually every other Clan Player would run a MDD over an SMN.

Quit being hyperbolic, in a short range fight, you need both sustained firepower and good durability, which is why mechs like the Timber, Thunderbolt, Atlas, and Stormcrow are commonly seen on brawling teems (Mad Dog doesn't have survivability). In a long range fight however, having decent firepower and the ability to roll damage like the Summoner can it is a appreciable ability. Sure it isn't able to outpoke mechs like the Timber and Wolverine thanks to their firepower but it is still pretty good at the poptart game, much like the Nova.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Look, I made a Hellbringer thats jumps, with no ECM.
SMN-PRIME

All these loadouts are doable, but not really competitive, not even the Gauss loadout becase the HBR beats it in weapon placement and ECM.

I think I'll have fun with it either way.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

guessing you don't play very competitive players if stunlock and blinding are particularly valuable to you.

comp players dont torso twist? are we playing the same game?

[Bishop Steiner]

Cookiemonter669, on 23 May 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

comp players dont torso twist? are we playing the same game?

judging by your recommendations, No. No we're not.

WM Quicksilver, on 23 May 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

Quit being hyperbolic, in a short range fight, you need both sustained firepower and good durability, which is why mechs like the Timber, Thunderbolt, Atlas, and Stormcrow are commonly seen on brawling teems (Mad Dog doesn't have survivability). In a long range fight however, having decent firepower and the ability to roll damage like the Summoner can it is a appreciable ability. Sure it isn't able to outpoke mechs like the Timber and Wolverine thanks to their firepower but it is still pretty good at the poptart game, much like the Nova.

and the poptart game is such a deciding part of the current meta.

[Ultimax]

lordtzar, on 23 May 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

IS standard >= clan XL

[IraqiWalker]

WM Quicksilver, on 23 May 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

Disregarding that bad build, the Mad Dog is also incredibly squishy on top of the lack of JJs, not to mention 60 tonner armor. The Mad Dog is objectively the worst of the Clan heavies currently just because of how squishy it is and how short range most of the builds are.

Irrelevant here. I was talking specifically about that build. Where even though the MDD is a 60 tonner still had significantly more armor than the Summoner.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

and the poptart game is such a deciding part of the current meta.

Poking is very much the meta, and poptarts poke, they just poke vertically instead of horizontally.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 23 May 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

Oh, he has a fair chance of getting a cSTD engine of his own! In wave IIII, the Assault is nearly guaranteed to be the KingFisher, STD engine 90 tonner, with 17 hardwired DHS! And only a 360 engine; one in each leg, and the RT.

Heavies is a 75% chance to be STD, or given the powercreep, more than likely to choose the XL300 75 tonner.


Will the odds be in his favour?

Edited by Mcgral18, 23 May 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Irrelevant here. I was talking specifically about that build. Where even though the MDD is a 60 tonner still had significantly more armor than the Summoner.

Talking specifically about a bad build is a worthless addition to the discussion anyway.

[IraqiWalker]

WM Quicksilver, on 23 May 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

Talking specifically about a bad build is a worthless addition to the discussion anyway.

We already know that. Sigilum made a build, and I explained to him that the MDD will do it better. Nowhere in his post or mine were talking about this thread, or whether or not one is superior to the other. The builds were being discussed in their own little bubble.

[Templar Dane]

Ultimatum X, on 23 May 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

Of course of course, standard engines have zero advantages to clan XLs. No mech has ever zombied. Clan XLs can be switched out and don't come with locked-in heatsinks. No clan mech has ever been made with a ridiculously large engine that wastes tonnage and can't be switched out.

I relent.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

lordtzar, on 23 May 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

No mech has ever zombied.

Zombies havn't been relevant pretty much since the days of the brawling meta (back in the good ol days). Zombies have slowly become less and less relevant with the power creep and Big Engine Stomp Meta coming about.

lordtzar, on 23 May 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

Clan XLs can be switched out and don't come with locked-in heatsinks. No clan mech has ever been made with a ridiculously large engine that wastes tonnage and can't be switched out.

Just because some of them have overly large (or small) engines does not mean all of them aren't optimized.....not to mention this is the reason mechs like the Timber and Stormcrow are so powerful thanks to their maneuverability tied with their great armor. In the Timber's case as well, outside of wishing it could dual gauss a little better, the locked heat sinks aren't wasted.

Most players outside of Gyrok have agreed that Clan XLs are in fact OP, if it weren't for a few poorly optimized Omnimechs (current Clan lights, Ice Ferret, Nova, and Gargoyle), this would be a huge source of contention with tech base parity right now.

[IraqiWalker]

lordtzar, on 23 May 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

Of course of course, standard engines have zero advantages to clan XLs. No mech has ever zombied. Clan XLs can be switched out and don't come with locked-in heatsinks. No clan mech has ever been made with a ridiculously large engine that wastes tonnage and can't be switched out.

I relent.

You know, looking back at our other discussion, I've realized you have a major problem with seeing the big picture.

You pick zombies, which are less than 10% of the IS mech pool. While ignoring that the other 90% would love to get their hands on clan XLs.

You pick the one or two mechs that have engines too large (TBR, and Gargoyle), or too small ( the lights, unless you consider their roles, and then you realize that the engine choice is actually optimal) in the clan arsenal, while ignoring that the rest have optimal engines.

You complain about hardlocked DHS, even though on average you will be putting that many DHS in your mech anyways (most clan mechs actually end up with 1 or 2 more DHS), and forgetting that the DHS are 2 slot instead of 3.

You really need to learn to distinguish between the edge cases, and majority ones.


You never seem to see the big picture, but instead focus one corner, at best, and that's it.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 May 2015 - 11:55 PM.

[Templar Dane]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2015 - 11:54 PM, said:

You know, looking back at our other discussion, I've realized you have a major problem with seeing the big picture.

You pick zombies, which are less than 10% of the IS mech pool. While ignoring that the other 90% would love to get their hands on clan XLs.

You pick the one or two mechs that have engines too large (TBR, and Gargoyle), or too small ( the lights, unless you consider their roles, and then you realize that the engine choice is actually optimal) in the clan arsenal, while ignoring that the rest have optimal engines.

You complain about hardlocked DHS, even though on average you will be putting that many DHS in your mech anyways (most clan mechs actually end up with 1 or 2 more DHS), and forgetting that the DHS are 2 slot instead of 3.

You really need to learn to distinguish between the edge cases, and majority ones.


You never seem to see the big picture, but instead focus one corner, at best, and that's it.

If half of them have peculiar engine sizes, it is a big deal. Especially the ones with no endo.

My CTF-3D, I love it. 2x AC10, 4 medium lasers, jump jets, 300XL. No clan heavy can do that setup without shaving 2 or 3 tons of armor.

A straight comparison between clan and IS XL engines is pretty laughable. Clan wins straight out. But IS have standard engines.

The sweet spot for engines is between 300 and 325 rating.

A standard 305 engine weighs 26.5 tons. An XL 375 weighs 26.5 tons. The difference in speed between them on a 75 ton mech.... 15.1 kph. [65.9 vs 81] Now, TBR has 5 locked in heat sinks. A standard 330 weighs as much as that TBR engine.

Standard 330 engine, 71.3kph. 9.7 kph difference, or 11.9% slower than the XL 375.

Don't care about speed? Go lower. Want more speed? At least IS have that option.

The ability to swap out engines, the standard engines offering zombie mode on select mechs, not having locked components and the piddly 4 extra crit slots..........

I stand by what I said. Standard engines >= Clan XLs.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

so no firepower for an extended period is preferable to heavy firepower for a shorter time. INteresting. You and I must play a very different game. Not to mention virtually every other Clan Player would run a MDD over an SMN.

There's a very complicated mess in one statement. It "depends" on the player and situation.

For instance, I don't mind overheating in the laservomit Timberwolf (2CLPL,4CERMED) if I'm about to kill someone (or needing the heat capacity to make it happen, w/o shutting down for extended periods).

I do like builds for "extended uptime" where firing even half the weapons while trying to cooldown is better than nothing... which is common with most laservomit+Gauss/ballistic combos.

So, it's very much a situational thing.

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

judging by your recommendations, No. No we're not.


and the poptart game is such a deciding part of the current meta.

Believe it or not, while poptarting isn't the meta, but the Summoner+Nova for that duty still works kinda nice.

WM Quicksilver, on 23 May 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:

Zombies havn't been relevant pretty much since the days of the brawling meta (back in the good ol days). Zombies have slowly become less and less relevant with the power creep and Big Engine Stomp Meta coming about.


Just because some of them have overly large (or small) engines does not mean all of them aren't optimized.....not to mention this is the reason mechs like the Timber and Stormcrow are so powerful thanks to their maneuverability tied with their great armor. In the Timber's case as well, outside of wishing it could dual gauss a little better, the locked heat sinks aren't wasted.

Most players outside of Gyrok have agreed that Clan XLs are in fact OP, if it weren't for a few poorly optimized Omnimechs (current Clan lights, Ice Ferret, Nova, and Gargoyle), this would be a huge source of contention with tech base parity right now.

"Zombies" started to fade more when the Centurion got its hitbox adjustment, followed by the loss of the left torso missile door.

Since then, IS Zombie mechs are usually rather suboptimal... since at most they can carry 3 energy weapons (head+CT w/2E). I mean, the Awesome has that option (the 9M), but it's certainly not the meta (well, because it's not that awesome) and a few others, but I think these days it's a bit more overrated.

It's nice to have the additional firepower, but the value there is really a minimal benefit when in most cases (mechs that don't zombie) are useless when both torsos are gone anyways. So, it's not really a tragic loss.

lordtzar, on 24 May 2015 - 01:21 AM, said:

Don't care about speed? Go lower. Want more speed? At least IS have that option.

The ability to swap out engines, the standard engines offering zombie mode on select mechs, not having locked components and the piddly 4 extra crit slots..........

I stand by what I said. Standard engines >= Clan XLs.

I think you're saying more about the IS battlemech vs Clan omnimech rules... because Clan battlemechs would actually be far more customizeable (you can swap in bigger+smaller engines)...

That is the only issue with your statement.

Clan XLs > Standard Engines... when it comes to tech

IS Engines (XL or Standard) > Clan XL on Clan Omnimechs... when it comes to customizeability (see Mist Lynx, Gargoyle, Nova, Clan Lights in general, and a few others).

However, when people question the Summoner when it comes to its Clan XL compared to the current IS 70-tonners... I have to question your credibility there.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 May 2015 - 02:10 AM.

[Ursh]

I think I could be happy with Endo for my summoners. I've mastered one, and am close on the other two. I really like the maneuverability of it.

What endo would give me is the ability to run 2xCUAC5 with 4xCERML as backup, with extra ammo and a few extra dhs. Hardly overpowered. Could possibly do 2xCUAC10 with no backup weapons.

I would love a couple of extra hardpoints, or at least an arm that has mixed energy/missile, but the biggest thing that could make me happy would be endo-steel. Every summoner build ends up with so much extra space that it could rent some crits to other mechs...