231 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Which is speed, but is not torso twist- that's where you went wrong. Not a big deal, but an error in your prior post.

They're directly related.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

....they're not related at all. During the course of or at the end of the whole turn (depending which way you tilt your head), any 'mech can put its torso in any of the three facings available based on the direction the legs are facing at the end of movement. Torso twist is lateral rotation of the torso compared to the centerline of forwards/backwards created by the legs. Tabletop 'mechs thus have the same torso twist speed and range as each other, completely unrelated to engine size or movement speed.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 26 May 2015 - 10:10 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

....they're not related at all. During the course of or at the end of the whole turn (depending which way you tilt your head), any 'mech can put its torso in any of the three facings available based on the direction the legs are facing at the end of movement. Torso twist is lateral rotation of the torso compared to the centerline of forwards/backwards created by the legs. Tabletop 'mechs thus have the same torso twist speed and range as each other, completely unrelated to engine size or movement speed.

They are directly related in MWO (bloody hell, do I really need to clarify that?)

Edited by Mcgral18, 26 May 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Mystere]

R0B0TULISM, on 26 May 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Wow, this one sure did degenerate into recriminations and acrimony rather quickly.

Guess the OP didn't conceal his secret "nerf clans and then implement sharia law" agenda well enough. Thanks for the great detective work though, forumites! Now that we know McGral is an anti-clan, space-muslim, reptilian zealot, we can all take appropriate measures to protect "the children" (otherwise known as god-tier robots) from his most wicked depredations. I, for one, will sleep better tonight.

I don't know about other people, but, I'm feeling really salty right now, but not quite for reasons people might think.

The last round of misguided "adjustments" (i.e. they were one of the worst ones that could have been made) left a really bad taste in the mouth, especially for those who like stock load outs. And considering how and when PGI does things, immediately calling for more so-called "adjustments", with a very highly unlikely probability that the last ones will be reversed, just doesn't sit well.

And all because some life-long collectors of participation trophies cried about "laser vomit".

Edited by Mystere, 26 May 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[Serpieri]

Um..because the clan lights aren't agile until they can get faster engines.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

And the Twist Rate follows the TT movement system to a T. Mechs that move 97 in TT all have the same base torso twist speed levels, and ground speed.

This wording indicates that it is moving 97 kph in the tabletop game that determines the 'mechs to have the same base torso twist speed levels in the tabletop game, at least when I read it. We seem to have fallen victim to a misunderstanding here.

[Mcgral18]

Serpieri, on 26 May 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Um..because the clan lights aren't agile until they can get faster engines.

No, quirkless they should have the same agility.


Because of that 25% quirk, and exorbitant natural torso twist range, it exceeds most of them in most regards. A few match in one, but fail in the other. The 25 tonner can be build to exceed both.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Mystere, on 26 May 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

The last round of misguided "adjustments" (i.e. they were one of the worst ones that could have been made) left a really bad taste in the mouth, especially for those who like stock load outs.

And for those who can identify the actual reasons why the Stormcrow excels, rather than just going 'it hit me with lasers LASERS ARE BORKED'.

[STEF_]

mmmmm, and why don't we suggest pgi buff light clam agility, instead of nerfing the only viable CLAM medium?

(my clam side has already suffered due to nerf hammer, recently....)

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 27 May 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[Templar Dane]

Serpieri, on 26 May 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Um..because the clan lights aren't agile until they can get faster engines.

IE never.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Serpieri, on 26 May 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Um..because the clan lights aren't agile until they can get faster engines.

Just to reiterate-

Base torso twist speed in MWO is derived from the ground speed of the 'mech- or rather, from the result of dividing engine rating by 'mech tonnage. All things that travel a given speed, as Mcgral has indicated, torso twist at the same speed as well unless they have quirks on them to alter that. It's not even impacted by the movement archetype like turn radius and slope handling are.

A 55-tonner with a 330 engine and a 30-tonner with a 180 engine have the same base foot speed, the same base torso twist speed, the same base tilt up/down speed, and the same base arm movement speed. Because in both cases engine rating divided by tonnage equals six.

[PhoenixNMGLB]

bad arcade kitty, on 26 May 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

the problem of clan lights agility stems from their engine limitations
scr has a pretty large engine for its class while kfx and adr have pretty small

but i repeat again that the idea of helping lights by nerfing mediums is laughable
what kind of help is it, moral help?

Whilst I lol'd at this I think the idea is to remove the agility buffs and remove the recent energy nerfs. Because the problem isn't the weapons it's the ridiculous agility and speed of the scr.

But I wouldn't complain at some agility buffs the the clan lights.

[R0B0TULISM]

Mystere, on 26 May 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

I don't know about other people, but, I'm feeling really salty right now, but not quite for reasons people might think.

The last round of misguided "adjustments" (i.e. they were one of the worst ones that could have been made) left a really bad taste in the mouth, especially for those who like stock load outs. And considering how and when PGI does things, immediately calling for more so-called "adjustments", with a very highly unlikely probability that the last ones will be reversed, just doesn't sit well.

And all because some life-long collectors of participation trophies cried about "laser vomit".

Yeah, sorry for all the salt on my part too, but the whole "My interests are besieged by this monolithic fifth-column within the community" thing pisses me off to no end. I think (or at least try to assume) most people want what's best for the game/balance, even if they're woefully misinformed, or just flat-out wrong. I'm not sure how to reform/educate them, or even to get them to stop crying "omg nerf x" after every patch, but perhaps some of them can be redeemed... or something.

But I totally agree with you that the "adjustments" were foolish (and indeed, the worst ones that could've been made), and won't likely be reveresed. Furthermore, it really sucks that pgi consistently refuses to reevaluate past changes that become detrimental to the current state of the game. To me it's just one more missed opportunity by pgi to move towards a holistic, non-capricious system of balance, that attempts to do more than just beat down the top performers/FOTM builds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Stefka Kerensky, on 26 May 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

instead of nerfing the only viable medium?

WVR-6K said:

I get no respect, nooooo respect...

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 26 May 2015 - 11:32 PM.

[Templar Dane]

WM Quicksilver, on 26 May 2015 - 11:31 PM, said:

stuff

he's probably talking about clan mediums..........

Nova, on 26 May 2015 - 11:31 PM, said:

I think he meant me.

Ice Ferret, on 26 May 2015 - 11:31 PM, said:

please........kill............me..........

[Quicksilver Aberration]

lordtzar, on 26 May 2015 - 11:54 PM, said:

he's probably talking about clan mediums..........

Either way, the Stormcrow could take the hit to torso twist range with the current nerfs and still come out strong. It would take a lot of nerfs to bring it down to the Nova's level, which is still pretty high compared to the majority of IS mediums.

Losing its twist range positive quirks is the first step they should've taken instead of laser nerfs on the SCrow.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 27 May 2015 - 01:04 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

For once, a 'nerf clan thread' i actually agree with, never understood why the SCrow needed that huge twist speed buff and radius.

******* laser duration nerfs on the other hand need to go away, all its done is multiply the number of streak and splat crows.

yeah im biased on the laser thing because i dont like missiles very much in this game, Clan ACs are crap unless you can mount at least 3 and PGI decided PPCs should be unusable without velocity quirks so the only enjoyable thing for me to do with Crows and Timbers is laser barf, or as it stands, not use at all.

[R0B0TULISM]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 May 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

******* laser duration nerfs on the other hand need to go away, all its done is multiply the number of streak and splat crows.

yeah im biased on the laser thing because i dont like missiles very much in this game, Clan ACs are crap unless you can mount at least 3 and PGI decided PPCs should be unusable without velocity quirks so the only enjoyable thing for me to do with Crows and Timbers is laser barf, or as it stands, not use at all.

It's very unfortunate that SRM damage seems to disappear into thin air with volleys over 12ish missiles for both clams and IS, but I don't expect that to change soon with the hitreg in this game being what it is. What they really need is their old artemis pathing back with convergence at multiples of 90m to be competitive. PPC will continue to be weak unless they look at its base velocity again.

And yeah. clan AC's are crap and the laser duration nerfs are just poor.

Edited by R0B0TULISM, 27 May 2015 - 02:27 AM.

[CygnusX7]

It's supposed to be agile.
IMO it's the hit boxes.

You can derp around the middle of 5 enemies and live a surprising length of time.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kit Fox and Adder was not built with a torso to twist! PGI gave you more range of motion than those 2 were meant to have.