231 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

PGI needs to look at the data, if the results agree with our own assessments so far, then MAYBE, if we get vocal enough about it, they'll realize they need to rollback the laser nerfs on the SCrow and Timby and instead go with the community proposed agility changes.

Do I have high hopes of this happening? Come on Mystere, we spar once in a while but we both want the same final result for MWO, and we're both all too aware of how PGI does things, sadly. That doesn't mean I will stop advocating for the proper balance actions, I just don't bet on them taking place

Well, I personally have decided to put my foot down and draw the proverbial line on the sand. Winter is coming.

[Johnny Z]

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

The twist range is enormous, which means several things.

1.) the Stormcrow's top speed is effectively amplified, as it can apply that top speed in more directions whilst still engaging the enemy. Very few 'Mechs can shoot directly 180 degrees behind them - the Stormcrow can (with its arms, provided no ballistics/PPCs), which gives it a big edge in skirmishing engagements,

2.) the 'Mech can utilize defensive twisting across a wider range of motion; i.e. its legs don't have to be directly facing its enemy for it to rotate damage all across its frame. You can, for example, be moving laterally compared to your target and still have plenty of twist range to spread damage across all three torso facings, rather than being forced to take it only on one side because you can't twist far enough to bring the other into line.

3.) finally, and most importantly in the eyes of most of the Doomcrow folks, the massive twist arcs combined with the 'Mech's heavily enhanced twist speed means it can't be flanked. Light 'Mechs have no safe engagement zone to angle for against a Stormcrow - you can't get at its back without more than one attacker going after it unless you catch the pilot by complete surprise or the pilot is a total herpaderp. Wherever you attack a Stormcrow from, in a second tops you're going to be facing the thing's guns, and if you're in a light 'Mech, it's going to outgun you by a goddamn lot. Streakboat Stormcrows are more or less an impenetrable anti-light system (ALS? NO BAD 1453) which swats entire legions of bugs without a care in the world because light 'Mechs cannot get away from it. They can't slip out of its arcs because counting its arms it's got over 180-degree coverage, and it's fast enough to hound most lights into ruin if it decides to focus on that. The only way to win is not to play to stay out of its range entirely, which generally means you're also out of your range and cannot engage whatever the Anti-Light Crow is shielding from harassment.

The Stormcrow's base 130 twist arcs are a pretty monumental advantage, and its native 20+% twist speed bonuses are frosty orange-flavored icing on top of a pretty awesome cake. Combined with the Crow's excellent weight bracket and MWO-optimal construction, and that 360-degree killbox ability of the machine makes it very difficult to stop in CW, where it can be run in huge packs that can utterly crush anything they can't leave in the dust.

Outside CW it's not nearly so much of an issue, but it could still use some adjustment, which was the main thrust of this thread. How far the adjustment needs to go is a point of fierce debate, because the Stormcrow is just amazingly fun to play and a lot of Clan pilots, while agreeing that it could use some work (and a hitbox pass), are quite reticent to overdo it. Spheroid pilots are less hesitant about hitting it hard, though the reasonable ones also tend to admit that overdoing it would be bad given that the Stormcrow, by itself, has reinvigorated the previously desolate medium queues, and JohnnyZ wants it removed from the game with no compensation to its owners.

Speaking of!


Man, just...stop. Everybody knows that 'fair playing field' is the last thing you're after. All you ever do is take nasty potshots at Clan 'Mechs, Clan tech, Clan players, or Clan lore/history with the franchise. Seriously? We get it. You don't like the Clans and you want them gone. Nobody wants to read it anymore, just like nobody wants to read Gyrok's rants the opposite way. Just STOP. You're not helping anything with this constant needling jerkishness, dude. If you just cannot deal with the fact that the Clans exist...blame the eighties. That ship has sailed since before half the playerbase was born, and it sure as shootin' isn't our fault that you're too salty to deal with it.

An accurate take on the current Streak Crow followed by cheap shots. Now thats effort.

[Lugh]

IS pilots crack me up. You have ALL The brawling advantages in your weapons setups(shorter burn times, lower heat, and more PPD), and so few of you spend time brawling.

It's disheartening how badly piloted most IS mechs are. And then you cry and cry and cry until the clan mechs get over nerfed to compensate your own lack of intelligence about playing to your strengths.

[Templar Dane]

Roll back the nerfs, then put those nerfs on the troublesome omnipods. TBR-A left torso. Nerf it, don't care. Hell, can even put a 3% on the CTs with an energy hardpoint. SCR-A left arm and B right arm, nerf nerf.

But for the love of god, builds with 3 energy hardpoints shouldn't be nerfed. Omnis with zero hardpoints don't need nerfs.

There's a good reason people don't put missiles on the TBR. You take any survivability it has and completely destroy it with the missile "ears".

Edited by lordtzar, 27 May 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

The Stormcrow's base 130 twist arcs are a pretty monumental advantage, and its native 20+% twist speed bonuses are frosty orange-flavored icing on top of a pretty awesome cake. Combined with the Crow's excellent weight bracket and MWO-optimal construction, and that 360-degree killbox ability of the machine makes it very difficult to stop in CW, where it can be run in huge packs that can utterly crush anything they can't leave in the dust.

Outside CW it's not nearly so much of an issue, but it could still use some adjustment, which was the main thrust of this thread. How far the adjustment needs to go is a point of fierce debate, because the Stormcrow is just amazingly fun to play and a lot of Clan pilots, while agreeing that it could use some work (and a hitbox pass), are quite reticent to overdo it. Spheroid pilots are less hesitant about hitting it hard, though the reasonable ones also tend to admit that overdoing it would be bad given that the Stormcrow, by itself, has reinvigorated the previously desolate medium queues, and JohnnyZ wants it removed from the game with no compensation to its owners.

I consider the Stormcrow the T-34 of Battletech: an unprecedented combination of firepower, mobility, protection, and ruggedness. It is what makes the Stormcrow unique. But, it is that same uniqueness that is being sacrificed in the name of so-called "balance", with the express intent of making it just like everything else.

"Balance" my butt.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lugh, on 27 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

IS pilots crack me up. You have ALL The brawling advantages in your weapons setups(shorter burn times, lower heat, and more PPD), and so few of you spend time brawling.

It's disheartening how badly piloted most IS mechs are. And then you cry and cry and cry until the clan mechs get over nerfed to compensate your own lack of intelligence about playing to your strengths.

You DO realize the person who started this thread, McGral, is a Clan player right? One of the top players no less, and he's actually been pretty staunchly against nerfs for the Clans overall. You DO realize this don't you? I happen to agree with him almost entirely across the board on this subject btw, just because I play as IS doesn't mean I'm anti-Clan, quite the opposite, I want the Clans to be as OP as they were in TT. I know that won't work for a F2P PvP online game however, so there has to be some give and take, balance of some sort must be found.

SCrow and Timby are simply the best 2 Mechs in the entire game, period, doesn't matter which side you are on, they are the 2 best Mechs, even AFTER this latest round of dumb nerfs aimed specifically at them and laser usage on them, still God Tier.

And that is a problem. Your inability to see it, or your refusal to see it, whichever it may be, doesn't matter, it is a problem.

We're trying to address the problem in the BEST possible manner, one that doesn't nerf the Mech's weapons or ability to blow the holy hell out of anything it sees, but instead dealing with the fact that it's just a LITTLE to agile, so...we reduce that agility a bit, put the weapons BACK where they were, see what happens.

Mystere, you know, people who say that line...they tend to lose their heads.... Then again, everyone in those novels dies, so what the hell right And I've actually read the novels, only seen a few bits of the HBO series, so I know how it ends.

[Mystere]

lordtzar, on 27 May 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Roll back the nerfs, then put those nerfs on the troublesome omnipods. TBR-A left torso. Nerf it, don't care. Hell, can even put a 3% on the CTs with an energy hardpoint. SCR-A left arm and B right arm, nerf nerf.

But for the love of god, builds with 3 energy hardpoints shouldn't be nerfed. Omnis with zero hardpoints don't need nerfs.

There's a good reason people don't put missiles on the TBR. You take any survivability it has and completely destroy it with the missile "ears".

You forgot stock loadouts. They should not be nerfed either to actually encourage their use.

[Templar Dane]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

You DO realize the person who started this thread, McGral, is a Clan player right? One of the top players no less, and he's actually been pretty staunchly against nerfs for the Clans overall. You DO realize this don't you? I happen to agree with him almost entirely across the board on this subject btw, just because I play as IS doesn't mean I'm anti-Clan, quite the opposite, I want the Clans to be as OP as they were in TT. I know that won't work for a F2P PvP online game however, so there has to be some give and take, balance of some sort must be found.

SCrow and Timby are simply the best 2 Mechs in the entire game, period, doesn't matter which side you are on, they are the 2 best Mechs, even AFTER this latest round of dumb nerfs aimed specifically at them and laser usage on them, still God Tier.

And that is a problem. Your inability to see it, or your refusal to see it, whichever it may be, doesn't matter, it is a problem.

We're trying to address the problem in the BEST possible manner, one that doesn't nerf the Mech's weapons or ability to blow the holy hell out of anything it sees, but instead dealing with the fact that it's just a LITTLE to agile, so...we reduce that agility a bit, put the weapons BACK where they were, see what happens.

Mystere, you know, people who say that line...they tend to lose their heads.... Then again, everyone in those novels dies, so what the hell right And I've actually read the novels, only seen a few bits of the HBO series, so I know how it ends.

I'd like to introduce you to the stalker, firestarter, thunderbolt, dragon, etc

Players in other games tend to congregate into a faction with the best toys, and for some reason in this game there are way more IS players... IS have 36 mechs, clans have 13. Half of the good mechs on the clan side just got nerfed. I'm sure the IS whiners won't be happy with just half, they'll be coming for the hellbringers and whales next. Since they've got the population advantage, they have more whiners.

I'm pretty sure the OP is trying to get the laser nerfs undone while sacrificing something else, not just get the stormcrow another nerf.

[Johnny Z]

Mystere, on 27 May 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

I consider the Stormcrow the T-34 of Battletech: an unprecedented combination of firepower, mobility, protection, and ruggedness. It is what makes the Stormcrow unique. But, it is that same uniqueness that is being sacrificed in the name of so-called "balance", with the express intent of making it just like everything else.

"Balance" my butt.

I can only speak for myself but I dont want all the mechs the same. Balance isnt about making the mechs exactly the same and that arguement isnt right. Having unique mechs is one of the top things Mechwarrior is and offers.

A balanced Storm Crow, for example, has a unique geometry, performance, load out options, role on the field and customization options. If that isnt appreciated then what can anyone say about this. Balance lets the pilots decide the outcome for themselves, not an "I WIN" button.

I am not even saying what should be nerfed or how much. Is the Storm Crow the most durable medium mech, with the most speed and agility, packing the most firepower?

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 May 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Mystere, you know, people who say that line...they tend to lose their heads.... Then again, everyone in those novels dies, so what the hell right And I've actually read the novels, only seen a few bits of the HBO series, so I know how it ends.

[Templar Dane]

Mystere, on 27 May 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

You forgot stock loadouts. They should not be nerfed either to actually encourage their use.

If the troublesome omnis had a 10-15% nerf, it wouldn't hurt the stock loadouts all that much. The stormcrow has some pretty heavy handed nerfs that look like a copy-paste job. Ballistic hardpoint arm? laser nerf. Head with no energy hardpoints? nerf. Torsos with no hardpoints? nerf.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

After nearly a year, the DoomCrow is still significantly more agile than nearly every Clam light; the only exception being the Myth Lynx at less than half the tonnage.

The Cute Fox and Badder cannot match the impressive 156 degree twist angle the Crow has, unquirked. The Badder A, using CT quirks, can match the Crow with 158.4 degrees, with the Prime being at 144 and the D 151.2.

Cute Fox, if you sacrifice the S-STs can reach 154.8, using maximum quirks. The non Primes are closer to 145.


Twist speed is 198 Deg/s for the DoomCrow, using the 15%CT bonus, and +10% Prime-LT bonus.

That's right, +25% bonus to torso twist on a God Tier robot.

Badder D-CT has a 20% bonus, which brings it to 192 Deg/s. The other Badders are not as fortunate. The A can have 180 Deg/s and the Prime 168 Deg/s.

The Cute Fox Prime (10%) can reach 192 Deg/s as well, having a max of 20% torso twist quirks.
The other two foxes are capped at 186 and 180 (having no CT quirk, only the 10% between STs).

For reference, unquirked (using the Myth Lynx B CT, and using armour quirked STs) the Myth Lynx gets 196 Deg/s. Less than the DoomCrow.

The Prime, however, gets a nice 10% boost on the CT(You know, less than the DoomCrow). Add the Prime STs to that(5% each), and the maximum is 224 Deg/s. Notably better than the robot 30 tons heavier than it.
The sad realization? When you take the torso twist speed, you need to sacrifice the torso yaw distance. So, while that Myth Lynx twists faster, it only has a twist distance of 150 degrees, smaller than 156. On the Prime chassis, at least. Even with the quirked STs, it only totals a few extra %, to 154.8. The C-CT has greater torso yaw, but I've sold it and don't want to Maths.


The DoomCrow isn't chassis quirk dependant; every CT has a 15% bonus, every Prime LT has a 10% bonus, or 5% for the C if you want another E hardpoint.


The Crow gets better hardpoint placement, more hardpoints, more tonnage, more armour, as well as having, on average, greater agility than EVERY Clam light in some cases, with some exceptions on the Myth Lynx, at 25 tons.


I know this might be crazy talk...but I feel a 55 ton robot should not be more agile than 25, 30 and 35 ton robots.

I feel God Tier robots shouldn't get 25% positive quirks.

I feel they shouldn't have one of the best torso yaw angles in the game, unquirked.



Perhaps remove that 25% positive quirk (15% on each chassis, 5% and 10% available LT), cut the torso yaw angle to something more appropriate (~100 Degrees).

The BJ1x is a good comparison. It's a Med mech that can travel 100 Kph with 8 hardpoints, as such it has a torso yaw angle of 96 Degrees, and torso yaw speed of 216 Deg/s(thank goodness it also has a 25% buff)

The Crow is a bit of an outlier, being a Med mech that travels over 100 Kph with up to 12 hardpoints (with 25% Yaw speed quirks), with 156 degrees of torso yaw, and 198 Deg/s torso yaw speed.


Or, I suppose in PGI fashion, we could keep that 25% buff, and instead give it 50% nerfs to balance them out.



Anyhow, perhaps make the 55 tonner less agile than the 25, 30 and 35 tonners? Just a suggestion.

I can haz unfked laz0rz if we fixitz? Ok...

(if not...nvm)

Edited by Gyrok, 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

I can haz unfked laz0rz if we fixitz?

You should haz unfked laz0rz anyways. This most recent set of beamshackles, at the very least, accomplished nothing useful and served only to complicate math.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 27 May 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

You forgot stock loadouts. They should not be nerfed either to actually encourage their use.

If laser vomit is intended to be reigned in then how would you propose stock loadouts not be nerfed if they're essentially laser vomit?

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

I can haz unfked laz0rz if we fixitz?

Yes

[Weeny Machine]

Mystere, on 27 May 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Jup, those guys who didn't read the book won't ever know that beautiful little anecdote about the "Golden Storm". Geez, I nearly fell from the couch laughing like mad

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

I can haz unfked laz0rz if we fixitz?

That's the intent, Gyrok. Unf*** the lasers in exchange for tuning down the torso agility to sane-man levels.

Because everybody knew before they went live that the Beamurder 'fix' wasn't going to accomplish squat except to p!ss players off.

[Kristov Kerensky]

lordtzar, on 27 May 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'd like to introduce you to the stalker, firestarter, thunderbolt, dragon, etc

Players in other games tend to congregate into a faction with the best toys, and for some reason in this game there are way more IS players... IS have 36 mechs, clans have 13. Half of the good mechs on the clan side just got nerfed. I'm sure the IS whiners won't be happy with just half, they'll be coming for the hellbringers and whales next. Since they've got the population advantage, they have more whiners.

I'm pretty sure the OP is trying to get the laser nerfs undone while sacrificing something else, not just get the stormcrow another nerf.

Clans have 13 OmniMechs, which is about the same as having 39 Mechs. IS has 36 BattleMechs, which not including Heros and assorted 4th/5th variants is 108 Mechs.

The Clans have 2 goto Mechs for ANY and ALL situations, SCrow and Timby.

The IS has..well...hells, depends on who you ask and what it's being used for as the goto choices, you list some of the most common CW choices, and that's all, they fit the CURRENT laser vomit meta best, and that's always a fluid thing.

Oddly enough, the SCrow and Timby have been the God Tier Clan Mechs since day 1 of their introduction, not a single Clan generic nerf or even the OmniPod/Chassis specific nerfs applied to them have changed that. They haven't been knocked down at all.

And you don't see the problem here?

You know WHY there's more IS players than Clan players? No, obviously you don't, why did I ask that? Silly of me, sorry. Let me explain WHY there's more IS players.

Cost

Yep, that's it, cost. New players can see that a single Clan Mech will run them the same as 2 to 3 or even 4 IS Mechs! Well, hell, they'll buy the IS Mechs because they are cheaper, and after all, it's an online PvP game, EVERYONE assures them there is NO Pay2Win in MWO, so the Clan stuff obviously can't be better, so spend less cbills to get more toys!

I know, silly right? Cost for 3 Clan Mechs is the same as buying 3 IS Mechs of the same class/tonnage and upgrading them, but you can save a bit by swapping engines with IS, so it's SLIGHTLY cheaper, sometimes. New players don't see that though, they don't understand how upgrades and what comes stock on a Mech all factor into the amount you finally spend, so, they go with the cheap option and get IS Mechs.

Now, since you failed so far to understand multiple basic aspects of the game as it stands RIGHT NOW, why, exactly, are your opinions to be regarded as anything but uninformed and biased?

[omessiaho]

1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

That being said, something's got to give. To hear the CW folks tell it the Stormcrow is single-handedly ruining the game mode, and while forum hysteria must always be taken with a bucket or two of salt, in this instance they have a number of actually solid points. Nobody likes the Beamurder quirks/thinks the Beamurder quirks did frag-all to fix anything. What folks want is for Stormcrows to stop showing up three to a drop deck and being able to outfight absolutely everything CW can throw against them. They crush light swarms like pinatas, and they're also as close as the Clans get to a light swarm themselves. Something needs to be done, and the sooner it's done the less forum pressure there is to make the 'something' truly crippling.

In turn, however, CW folks need to remember that Puglandia is still a thing, and that the SCR is significantly less problematic there. The sort of horrifying soul-destroying kill-it-with-fire supermegaultranerfs they want to apply to the Stormcrow would utterly ruin it in Puglandia, and that isn't fair to us. A compromise needs to be reached in which the 'Mech is rendered less omnidestructive in CW, but not hit so hard that it becomes as pointless as the Nova in the regular queue.

PGI needs to change the drop weight or make other mechs more appealing for CW. These blanket nerfs are annoying because they are intended to to limit the scr's use in CW, a mode most people don't play.

[Yokaiko]

On man where to start.

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Clans have 13 OmniMechs, which is about the same as having 39 Mechs. IS has 36 BattleMechs, which not including Heros and assorted 4th/5th variants is 108 Mechs.

The Clans have 2 goto Mechs for ANY and ALL situations, SCrow and Timby.

The IS has..well...hells, depends on who you ask and what it's being used for as the goto choices, you list some of the most common CW choices, and that's all, they fit the CURRENT laser vomit meta best, and that's always a fluid thing.

Load. of. crap.

IS laser vommit because lasers don't run out of ammo, and PPCs suck. Particularly in CW tossing a good mech because you have no ammo left isn't a good thing. Lights don't generally use balistics (specially IS lights), and heavier IS mechs pay a real penatly for using XLs (also required with a lot of heavy ballistic builds) The meta for CW isn't going to be very fluid unless they do something drastic with ammo counts or allow reloaded.

Same thing with the clans. I can run a dual UAC5 Bringer or dual UAC10 Timber out of 6 tons of ammo halfway through a 6 minute PUG game, so what would I do in CW when I need that mech online for 8 minutes?

Quote

Oddly enough, the SCrow and Timby have been the God Tier Clan Mechs since day 1 of their introduction, not a single Clan generic nerf or even the OmniPod/Chassis specific nerfs applied to them have changed that. They haven't been knocked down at all.

And you don't see the problem here?

You know WHY there's more IS players than Clan players? No, obviously you don't, why did I ask that? Silly of me, sorry. Let me explain WHY there's more IS players.

Cost

Yep, that's it, cost. New players can see that a single Clan Mech will run them the same as 2 to 3 or even 4 IS Mechs! Well, hell, they'll buy the IS Mechs because they are cheaper, and after all, it's an online PvP game, EVERYONE assures them there is NO Pay2Win in MWO, so the Clan stuff obviously can't be better, so spend less cbills to get more toys!

I know, silly right? Cost for 3 Clan Mechs is the same as buying 3 IS Mechs of the same class/tonnage and upgrading them, but you can save a bit by swapping engines with IS, so it's SLIGHTLY cheaper, sometimes. New players don't see that though, they don't understand how upgrades and what comes stock on a Mech all factor into the amount you finally spend, so, they go with the cheap option and get IS Mechs.

Now, since you failed so far to understand multiple basic aspects of the game as it stands RIGHT NOW, why, exactly, are your opinions to be regarded as anything but uninformed and biased?

Frankly, you don't understand a damn thing.

Cost really? The Single most expensive mech in my 141 mech stable is a Banshee, IS lights are (average) about 4 mil more than clan lights once built, mediums average around 13mil for me, the heavies are a bit cheaper....in the case of the Phracts.

Hell the Resistance package cost me over 40 mil to get into semi working condition.