96 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

masCh, on 29 May 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

How about no split queues (population is already bad).. however do something like this:

There can be no 12-mans. Maximum 8-man premade and you only drop with 8-man against 12 pugs.
But then what if you have a 6-man premade, then you should have a 10-man team or something against 12 pugs.
Ah well I hope PGI has better ideas.

The entire split queue system is just a crutch that makes average players far worse. They should just get rid of the system entirely now that they have implemented the tools for players to easily form groups so that we can see the quality of matches start to head back up. I could understand splitting the queue when there was no comms in-game, because that did give a premade a decisive advantage, that advantage is now removed so there is no more need to split any queue.

The only single reason left to have a separate queue is for new players to get acquainted with the game for 50-100 matches, after you have the controls and basic concepts down you don't need it anymore and should be developing your skills to compete with the rest of the players.

[CyclonerM]

BearFlag, on 27 May 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

Not the point. But since you brought it up, they 'wrecked' us through a common CW exploit and frequent CW complaint. Spawn Camping - which should not EXIST. No commander would order, no pilot would fly and no mech driver would drop into an enemy firing circle.

I could not agree more with you. On the other hand, i see far too many people who, instead of blaming PGI and ask/hope for a fix to the drop system, blame the units spawncamping. In the flow of the battle, spawncamping is the natural conclusion of a successful counterattack from the defenders or a successful push from the attackers (Wow, those drop zones right in the middle of the objectives, nice). It should not exist, but the way the game currently works, there is no reason for a team (which might not even be a 12men, even in pugs vs pugs there is always a better coordinated team) to hold back and patiently wait instead of trying to seize victoy..

Which is kind of the point of every battle, quiaff?

Quote

tired of choke point carnage, tired of repetitious goals on repetitious maps.

I could not agree more with these three. I have always said CW needs more modes, at least 3 48vs48 and 1 4vs4 and/or 8vs8. I even wrote a thread about it and a LOT of other things..

Issue #1: in a team game, you do not want to penalize actual organized teams.
Issue #2: If there was a queque separation, it would be much harder for premades to find opponents. We tried it a while ago with the 12men queque, i still kind of remember it.

Tywren, on 28 May 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Like i said, this is for the entire community, it's not some clubhouse for a bunch of elitest douchbags!

Actually, neg. CW was always intended to be the "hardcore roleplaying mode" and to cater to units, while still allowing pugs (which is something other games like WoT do not do). Words by Russ.

Edited by CyclonerM, 29 May 2015 - 07:19 AM.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

CyclonerM, on 29 May 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Actually, neg. CW was always intended to be the "hardcore roleplaying mode" and to cater to units, while still allowing pugs (which is something other games like WoT do not do). Words by Russ.

Please do the math for yourself: Take all the Units, divide them by the number of factions and by the number of timezones.
Do you still have enough to fill CW?

If not, I highly suggest you let the Pugs into your esteemed treehouse.

How do you attract them?
I don't know. I leave that up to PGI, but I do know that you will not attract Pugs by letting trained and coordinated 12-man groups beat them up again and again. This ain't really fun for either party, you know?

Edited by Sthtopokeon, 29 May 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Tywren]

sycocys, on 29 May 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

Having a gate that prevents new and inexperienced players from engaging in a part of the game that is too hard for them is not a bad thing.

A gate that prevents the low elo casual players from participating, while frustrating for those particular players, is also good for the life of CW - because these are the players most likely to leave a match that they are obviously not prepared for and ruin it for the other 23 players.

Its not only good to keep those players out of that queue until they gain some much needed experience with the game, but it is also good for all the players that have crossed that gate to not have the people dropping that instantly think the match is too hard because they simply haven't made themselves ready for more of a challenge yet.

So the solution to fixing a terminally underpopulated game mode is to throw up roadblocks to keep people from coming in? I'm trying to think of words to discribe how bad of an idea this is, but stupid, idiotic, imbicilic, ********, moronic, brain dead, none of these words fully cover it. I honestly don't think the engilsh language has a word for it.

CyclonerM, on 29 May 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Issue #1: in a team game, you do not want to penalize actual organized teams.
Issue #2: If there was a queque separation, it would be much harder for premades to find opponents. We tried it a while ago with the 12men queque, i still kind of remember it.

Actually, neg. CW was always intended to be the "hardcore roleplaying mode" and to cater to units, while still allowing pugs (which is something other games like WoT do not do). Words by Russ.

It may have been intended to be that initialy, but that was predicated on the organized units being able to provide CW with a population high enough to maintain it, and 13.5% of the game population (also Words of Russ) isn't cutting it. That means it's time to put the hardcore part to bed, and shift development focus to a wider audience that can. The organized groups have already proven that they couldn't keep the 12 man que going, and they sure as hell can't keep CW going.

Sthtopokeon, on 29 May 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

Please do the math for yourself: Take all the Units, divide them by the number of factions and by the number of timezones.
Do you still have enough to fill CW?

If not, I highly suggest you let the Pugs into your esteemed treehouse.

How do you attract them?
I don't know. I leave that up to PGI, but I do know that you will not attract Pugs by letting trained and coordinated 12-man groups beat them up again and again. This ain't really fun for either party, you know?

This! Exactly this!

[LordNothing]

they should make it so dead players can spawn in abandoned mechs. of corse you have to use someone else's loadout but hey spare mechs. of course any additional score you gain wouldn't count. this is just to make sure disconnects and intentional rage quitters dont ruin the game for everyone else.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 May 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[sycocys]

Actually if you divided up the several hundred units in the game there's plenty to go around all the factions, participation varies and slow development of the mode hinders participation.

Sthtopokeon, on 29 May 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

How do you attract them?

This is really a good question.
How do you attract people into wanting to learn how to play the game better?
Rewards don't seem do that.
The split queue in standard mode has dumbed down the gameplay to a ridiculous degree - so that obviously doesn't work.

The only thing I can think of is letting them face stiff competition until they make the choice on their own that they want to be better players and learn how to work as a 12 person team.

[sdsnowbum]

Instead of attracting people to factions that need more folks, I am for capping factions that don't necessarily need the 'help'.

Perhaps offer less contract options if a faction is already highly populated, only leave permament contract as an option for true blue loyalists, but leave the other contract options un-selectable until the faction population goes down.

Basically dynamically disable a few of the buttons on a few of the factions for the current faction selection UI. Then if you change factions again 2 weeks later those same options might be enabled again.

[sycocys]

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

So the solution to fixing a terminally underpopulated game mode is to throw up roadblocks to keep people from coming in? I'm trying to think of words to discribe how bad of an idea this is, but stupid, idiotic, imbicilic, ********, moronic, brain dead, none of these words fully cover it. I honestly don't think the engilsh language has a word for it.

When CW goes live, you should fully expect there to be a gate to cross before you are allowed in. Why, because that gate gives you time to gain the necessary experience to engage in higher level content without getting stomped into the ground.

Almost every single game with a raid type mode has a gate system, and there is absolutely no reason to be throwing new players into a mode where your skill level actually matters until they have actually gained some experience in the game. All that does is frustrate them and all the players they drop with.

Not having a gate right now is fine, it's beta and it well let PGI figure out where to set a gate by seeing what skill/elo/match counts and so forth have the worst go at CW. Takes time and tracking, and we can clearly see that low elo players tend to not have such a good time in CW because the crutches are gone - and removing the crutches is also a good thing because otherwise low elo players never see that they are indeed low elo players. They stay stuck in low skill matches and have a 50/50 chance of winning without ever really seeing that they are under the bar in terms of skill level.

[Tywren]

sycocys, on 29 May 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Rewards don't seem do that.

Sure they do, they just have to be insanely over the top rewards, like those seen in special events.

Quote

The split queue in standard mode has dumbed down the gameplay to a ridiculous degree - so that obviously doesn't work.

I actually have more fun in standard que. I like games where i don't feel compeled to chase the flavor of the month meta, or get bitched at for not doing so; where radar derp, 10 AMS, and 4 layers of overlaping ECM haven't made LRM's useless 100% of the time; where i don't instantly know that the other team is going to build a murder ball, in a sheltered nook, before rushing alpha, the second i see the map name is Sulphurous Rift.

You say it's dumbed down, i say it's more fun.

Quote

The only thing I can think of is letting them face stiff competition until they make the choice on their own that they want to be better players and learn how to work as a 12 person team.

If you think they're going to do that, then you need to see a doctor about getting a crainialanalectomy. No, what they are going to do, is take their money, and find another game to play. Hell as it stands now, even as much as i love the Battletech/Mechwarrior nostalgia, i found myself spending more time playing Elite Dangerous in the weeks leading up to Tukk, and when Star Citizen hits, forget about it.

sycocys, on 29 May 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

When CW goes live, you should fully expect there to be a gate to cross before you are allowed in. Why, because that gate gives you time to gain the necessary experience to engage in higher level content without getting stomped into the ground.

PGI has that now, it's called Elo

Quote

Almost every single game with a raid type mode has a gate system, and there is absolutely no reason to be throwing new players into a mode where your skill level actually matters until they have actually gained some experience in the game. All that does is frustrate them and all the players they drop with.

This isn't an MMO, there is not a "raid type mode" here; this game is an FPS. Name me one FPS that gates palyers from droping on any map they want, any time they want, in any game mode they want.

Edited by Tywren, 29 May 2015 - 09:31 AM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

I actually have more fun in standard que. I like games where i don't feel compeled to chase the flavor of the month meta, or get bitched at for not doing so; where radar derp, 10 AMS, and 4 layers of overlaping ECM haven't made LRM's useless 100% of the time; where i don't instantly know that the other team is going to build a murder ball, in a sheltered nook, before rushing alpha, the second i see the map name is Sulphurous Rift.

You say it's dumbed down, i say it's more fun.

I agree, the design for the maps in CW inspires predictable and abhorrent behavior and rather stale gameplay. To me this boils down to the map design as the approaches are extremely limited. You are funneled into the engagement instead of allowing to choose your own approach.

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

If you think they're going to do that, then you need to see a doctor about getting a crainialanalectomy. No, what they are going to do, is take their money, and find another game to play. Hell as it stands now, even as much as i love the Battletech/Mechwarrior nostalgia, i found myself spending more time playing Elite Dangerous in the weeks leading up to Tukk, and when Star Citizen hits, forget about it.

Not sure dishing out insults is really needed, it's a difference of opinion.

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

This isn't an MMO, there is not a "raid type mode" here; this game is an FPS. Name me one FPS that gates palyers from droping on any map they want, any time they want, in any game mode they want.

I have to disagree here on one point.

MWO is an MMO. It's an online only experience where you're directed to interact with other players. Much the same as World of Tanks and Warthunder are also MMOs. They're taking on the role of MMOFPS which has been a popular trend for the last decade. Even Counter-Strike Global Offensive falls into the category.

There are lessons to be taken from other successful MMOs in regards to that, and it's difficult at times to compare MWO to other high population MMOFPS titles as they have drastically higher populations.

[sycocys]

The event rewards are based upon clearing a goal of "I kind of participated in the match, then did it 19 more times" - really not sure how that encourages anyone that's not at the very lowest skill level to improve.

elo is a gauge of your skill level, not a gate.

And its alright if you want to keep throwing insults out there, I now have a better idea of where you are in the elo system and why you'd be worried about having to get better to get access to CW. It's all cool man, you'll get better and you'll start to understand why these things are needed.

[Tywren]

Mirkk Defwode, on 29 May 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

I agree, the design for the maps in CW inspires predictable and abhorrent behavior and rather stale gameplay. To me this boils down to the map design as the approaches are extremely limited. You are funneled into the engagement instead of allowing to choose your own approach.

Really, somthing i'd like to see some time is CW palyed out on some of the big pub maps, like Tourmaline Desert, or Alpine Peek. No MOBA stile attack lanes, or choak points, just a big map with lots of room to maneuver.

Quote

I have to disagree here on one point.

MWO is an MMO. It's an online only experience where you're directed to interact with other players. Much the same as World of Tanks and Warthunder are also MMOs. They're taking on the role of MMOFPS which has been a popular trend for the last decade. Even Counter-Strike Global Offensive falls into the category.

There are lessons to be taken from other successful MMOs in regards to that, and it's difficult at times to compare MWO to other high population MMOFPS titles as they have drastically higher populations.

When i say MMO, i'm talking about MMORPGs like WoW, just to clarify. Beyond that my question holds, What MMOFPS gates their new players from taking part in a game mode, or map? I can't think of any; not even freemium MMOFPS like Planetside 2 do that.

The whole concept of "end game content", including gates to keep new players out, is something that comes form level based MMORPG.

[sycocys]

Level based MMOs lean much harder on a level cap before a skill cap to separate players.

MWo relies almost entirely on skill to separate players.

If you can't comprehend why you wouldn't want to throw low skill players directly into the pool with higher skilled players without first giving them some competency checks to clear I really don't think there's much hope in you ever understanding the purpose of a gating system. Its not a system built out of malice for low skillers, its built to get them prepared to engage in harder challenges that they wouldn't enjoy - a la many of these QQ threads "My unorganized team that refused to engage in teamwork couldn't beat a team that engaged in teamwork therefore teamwork is OP and I shouldn't have to play against it!!!"

Not really a hard concept to understand why you wouldn't just throw unskilled players against vets without making them gain some experience first so they can comprehend their mistakes.
---
And no I don't play other MMOFPS because they tend to be full of COD kids, where this game's population is in my age range. But if you really insist I can check into them and tell you why they went the routes they went, my first guess is that most of them the skill gap is a very narrow range between beginner and elite player.

Edited by sycocys, 29 May 2015 - 11:42 AM.

[Tywren]

sycocys, on 29 May 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Level based MMOs lean much harder on a level cap before a skill cap to separate players.


MWo relies almost entirely on skill to separate players.

Yes, and Elo is already doing that, so there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Or in this case inventing the pogo stick, when the wheel is getting the job done.

Quote

If you can't comprehend why you wouldn't want to throw low skill players directly into the pool with higher skilled players without first giving them some competency checks to clear I really don't think there's much hope in you ever understanding the purpose of a gating system.

I do understand, and Elo is already keeping low skill players facing other low skill player in the public que, so i don't wee why it wouldn't also work in CW. What i can't understand is how you plan to get the numbers in CW up by actively keeping new players out, which is what a gate does.

Quote

Its not a system built out of malice for low skillers

It may not be built that way, but that's how the players will use it. Reference your deleated comment about my supposed skill level to illustrate my point.

Quote

its built to get them prepared to engage in harder challenges that they wouldn't enjoy - a la many of these QQ threads "My unorganized team that refused to engage in teamwork couldn't beat a team that engaged in teamwork therefore teamwork is OP and I shouldn't have to play against it!!!"

And as they slowly work their way up the Elo brackes they'll figure this out, no gatekeepers needed.

Quote

Not really a hard concept to understand why you wouldn't just throw unskilled players against vets without making them gain some experience first so they can comprehend their mistakes.

Also not hard to understand that vets that are trying to bring in new players, wouldn't care for being blocked from droping with them in CW, because their new recrute isn't through the magic gate yet.

---

Quote

And no I don't play other MMOFPS because they tend to be full of COD kids, where this game's population is in my age range.

Well, i hope you've braced yourself for the Steam release, because as someone who was an admin on the top rated ZPS server, i can tell you now, they're coming. In great, uncounted hoards, they're coming. And if PGI wants to succeed on Steam, that's who they're going to have to build their game around, not the old hands like you or me, who've been around sense closed beta.

Quote

But if you really insist I can check into them and tell you why they went the routes they went, my first guess is that most of them the skill gap is a very narrow range between beginner and elite player.

That's very possible, as i don't think there are any other FPS out there right now with things like permanent damage, limited respawn, or such a wide range of loadout variability. Less complex games i think would tend to a narrower skill band, and make it one that tends to transfer from one game to the next at that. Something worth considering.

Edited by Tywren, 29 May 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[Kdogg788]

LordNothing, on 29 May 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

they should make it so dead players can spawn in abandoned mechs. of corse you have to use someone else's loadout but hey spare mechs. of course any additional score you gain wouldn't count. this is just to make sure disconnects and intentional rage quitters dont ruin the game for everyone else.

This is a novel idea, but how does it ever prevent spawn camping? If a team is camping they will shred the dropping mech no matter who is at the controls. A few drops like this and these players never opt for CW again.

-k

[Rebas Kradd]

I think a lot of 12-mans are pretty smug and cocky in their behavior and tactics...

But in this case, I can't fault 228. If you join the CW queue, you need to understand the risks. Teams are fighting for territory; they're going to be ruthless and use every available tactic. If you're a pug, you're automatically disadvantaged. So if you get into the game and disconnect because you see a 12-man you don't want to fight, you walked into the kitchen without being willing to stand the heat. And now you've stranded everyone else on your team with an impossible fight.

This little "silent protest" isn't impressing anyone. Not a single member of 228 is going to go "Oh, okay, we feel so bad for being a 12-man now" and disband or play differently or suddenly find themselves the pariahs of the community. So stop it. If you're going to play CW, be prepared to face anyone you find with your head held high. Don't strand your teammates.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

Really, somthing i'd like to see some time is CW palyed out on some of the big pub maps, like Tourmaline Desert, or Alpine Peek. No MOBA stile attack lanes, or choak points, just a big map with lots of room to maneuver.




When i say MMO, i'm talking about MMORPGs like WoW, just to clarify. Beyond that my question holds, What MMOFPS gates their new players from taking part in a game mode, or map? I can't think of any; not even freemium MMOFPS like Planetside 2 do that.

The whole concept of "end game content", including gates to keep new players out, is something that comes form level based MMORPG.

You're correct, the point still stands. Part of this is outside my expertise but I can cite a few examples as I've seen them from either MMOFPs or large scale FPS titles. Beyond Warthunder or WoT which have a tiered exclusion system for content they don't really have restrictions immediately.

Battlefield used a gating system for getting access to classes beyond rifleman inside their level ups associated with the accounts for Battlefield 3 and 4

Planetside gated users away from mechanized combat by having to unlock the vehicle tokens through combat experience and level up system.

Destiny required you to complete 3 rounds in each of it's PVP modes in succession upon launch. Though this has a myriad of RPG elements from the get go.

Star Conflict gates you from anything other than their tutorial experience until that is completed, which walks you through basic combat, a game mode, and how to upgrade your ships. Once completed you get access to most everything gameplay wise but still have a tiered system for ships and experience.

[sycocys]

^ Well look at that, someone that has played a few of these FPS and it appears they indeed have some gates to cross. Craziness.


Also I don't recall deleting anything about your skill level, so I'll restate what I believe I said.
I am starting to get a picture of where you (Tyrwren) are at on the elo scale. You will begin to understand why gating is a good thing once you start becoming a better player.

And since you also seem to be short on comprehension skills - I believe with the information you have been posting about your experience with this game that you are on the low end of the elo/skill side of the game and should start improving your skill at this game. - just so there's no misunderstanding to what I am stating. You are however very good at doing multiple quote posts in an attempt to make yourself appear smarter than you actually are! Well Done. +1 forum troll skill.

It may happen naturally with the elo system over hundreds or thousands of games, but if you don't actually have any indicators (like getting smoked in CW and having 11 other players vastly out perform you) that you are not a very good player the elo system is designed to put you in favorable conditions to keep you from realizing that you are not a very good player.

Its a good system for generating revenue from players that aren't (or aren't yet) very good at this game, not very good at helping players to get better at the game itself.

[Threat Doc]

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

So the solution to fixing a terminally underpopulated game mode is to throw up roadblocks to keep people from coming in?

No, the way to fix this terminally underpopulated game mode -CW- is to build the game the way it was meant to be built in the first place, with objective-based warfare, with a means of gauging individual 'Mechs and the overall value of the pilot in that 'Mech -HINT: Elo does NOT do that, right now-, and then running one hell of a smash-bang marketing campaign to get back the veteran's of this game. And it needs to be done BEFORE this game goes to Steam, so there's a way to keep absolute utter stupidity and chaos from ensuing within, and chasing off EVERYONE else who was not just here, in the first place, to play the game a little bit, and then go do something else. Steam will be a nice little revenue boost... for a little while... until this game is just one of the many dozens to hundreds of games gathering virtual dust on Steam's virtual shelves. Once this game hits Steam, I give it six months before everyone who has ever wanted to try this game is done with it, and then all of us are up a crick without a paddle.

Quote

It may have been intended to be that initialy, but that was predicated on the organized units being able to provide CW with a population high enough to maintain it, and 13.5% of the game population (also Words of Russ) isn't cutting it. That means it's time to put the hardcore part to bed, and shift development focus to a wider audience that can. The organized groups have already proven that they couldn't keep the 12 man que going, and they sure as hell can't keep CW going.

No, if PGI wants this game to survive beyond my predicted six month time table after joining Steam, it has to go entirely the opposite direction. I am so very sick and tired of games being cornered into molds because the "large population" cries and whines and [...] and moans and complains until something is done. That ALWAYS, INEVITABLY, leads to the finality of the game, PERIOD. This time, PGI has to [get back its courage], and develop the game for the veterans and the hardcore crowd so that, when the Steam crowd goes away, the game can still survive.


Of course, will any of that be heard? No. Russ and the gang will not listen to people who actually have common sense and would pay -now that I have an amazingly well-paying job- gobs of money to play the game we paid for, initially, anyway.

sdsnowbum, on 29 May 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Instead of attracting people to factions that need more folks, I am for capping factions that don't necessarily need the 'help'.

I laid out a plan along this line two years ago, where all units would have a cap of so many people and, until the cap was met across the board, that cap couldn't raised to the next level, and so on...

Quote

Perhaps offer less contract options if a faction is already highly populated, only leave permament contract as an option for true blue loyalists, but leave the other contract options un-selectable until the faction population goes down.

I heartily disagree with this, actually. PGI needs to completely develop BattleTech-based contract options from Mercs Handbook and MH: 3055, and make those contracts actually worth something, rather than a unit pledging itself wholesale to ONE liege lord, they could take diverse contracts, as long as they weren't fighting themselves. Leave the weak "Company Store" contracts for the smaller units and force them to recruit more folks before they can move up to bigger and better.

Another thing I'm really tired of is dumbing down a game that should never have to be dumbed down. If someone's not intelligent enough to play a contracting and/or logistics portion to the game, they still have a place as a MechWarrior, right? (shrug) Why do I want to allow window lickers to run a unit in this game, when their entire purpose in life should be to fight for any other person who can actually fill the role of commander in this game?

Elitist? Maybe. True? Definitely.

Edited by CyclonerM, 30 May 2015 - 04:44 AM.
language

[Clementine]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

228 is one of the best units in the game, and wreck pretty much 95% of their opposition, whether they are pugs or dropped as 12 mans

LOL no they are not wtf?