115 replies to this topic

[CaliburZero]

The tin foil hat is strong with the OP and a few others here. Pretty sure this is the leftover momentum of people thinking that because the SCR and TW was nerfed, they can further kneecap clan mechs. If nothing else, this is simply a troll or trollbait.

But here, let me entertain you a bit OP:

So... your logic is "Let's further nerf clans' lasers outright to prevent negative quirks abusing and overall making things worse." Specifically, you go after the ER LL and ML. Um... the C-ERLL is trash. Almost everyone knows that, its not even a debated fact. Which leads me to believe you are lying through your teeth about what your intentions are. the ER-ML? Yeah, runs hot as hell. 1-2 damage nerf? So.. you want it to sit at 5 damage for 6 heat at worst? Get the (Insert profanity of your choice here) out of here.

Seriously, you either seriously don't know what you are talking about or your agenda of "CLAM OP NERF PL0X" is horribly showing.

And let's go a bit further. Let's say your suggestion is remotely intelligent or holds water... You mention nothing of undoing other nerfs to compensate, address any of the blatant horribleness of clans that clearly need buffing (something 90% of people on these forums like to pretend doesn't exist hence my profile status), nor pay attention to the status quo. Look at the Highlander and Victor as two examples off the top of my mind. You're a bit crazy if you think they'll undo the heavy-handed nerfing in exchange for what you suggest. And I'm 99% sure whether or not the nerfs of the TW and SCR are appropriate, they are here to stay.

Edited by CaliburZero, 29 May 2015 - 03:38 AM.

[Beastbear]

DarthRevis, on 28 May 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

They dont compare, add 10% cooldown, 15% heat gen, 15% duration cut....that alone makes the laser 40% better. thus negating this BS.

BUt to the OP, how would this help the Clan mechs that are already in trouble? It would not, Blanket nerfs get nothing done and just make more work later.




So you want Clans to suck more then IS just come out and say it, enough with the passive aggressive s*%t! Nerfing Lasers will do NOTHING to bring more diversity because Clan Ballistics still suck compared to IS. So you win and we lose...again. All you did was make one side much worse....thanks for the brilliant idea.

You agenda is showing....best tuck it in.

My only agenda is more balance, i have a stake in both sides..........

Edit: Oh, and our range advantage got the is their weapon quirks, how'd that work out for ya btw.....

Edited by Beastbear, 28 May 2015 - 10:45 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

CaliburZero, on 28 May 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

The tin foil hat is strong with the OP and a few others here. Pretty sure this is the leftover momentum of people thinking that because the SCR and TW was nerfed, they can further kneecap clan mechs. If nothing else, this is simply a troll or trollbait.

woah there. dont make fun of my tinfoil hat. its a spiffy hat



dont you like it?

and of course the only acceptable solution is to nerf all things clams till they are totally unrecognizable cuz the clams r OP and P2W so of course no amount of nerfing is enough right?

yes i took my meds today i promise.......

[Revis Volek]

Beastbear, on 28 May 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

My only agenda is more balance, i have a stake in both sides..........

Edit: Oh, and our range advantage got the is their weapon quirks, how'd that work out for ya btw.....

Our range advantage was a stupid thing for PGI to implement, one thing they should have left out. Was a bold face lie saying clans would be the same but different while this was the case. How are they the same at all of one is just blatantly better?

You need a trade off, we had range and damage, IS had nothing. I never ASKED for range, you act as if i had something to do with it lol. IF we had RANGE the Inner Sphere should have had more damage. That is balance....something you dont seem to understand at all.


You still have yet to answer my questions, how does a GLOABL nerf to lasers help diversity? The junk clan or IS mechs? Or even the good ones?

Edited by DarthRevis, 28 May 2015 - 10:52 PM.

[CaliburZero]

Mellifluer, on 28 May 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

woah there. dont make fun of my tinfoil hat. its a spiffy hat



dont you like it?

and of course the only acceptable solution is to nerf all things clams till they are totally unrecognizable cuz the clams r OP and P2W so of course no amount of nerfing is enough right?

yes i took my meds today i promise.......

It makes me sad that your sarcasm here is what a lot of people truly want and believe.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

CaliburZero, on 28 May 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

It makes me sad that your sarcasm here is what a lot of people truly want and believe.

just tryin to keep the convo lively

maybe i also do feel as tho the TW/SCR nerfs were shall we say just slightly overkill.

[Revis Volek]

CaliburZero, on 28 May 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

It makes me sad that your sarcasm here is what a lot of people truly want and believe.

If i was crazy enough to buy into tinfoils hats, id make a way cooler one then that.

Mellifluer, on 28 May 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

just tryin to keep the convo lively

maybe i also do feel as tho the TW/SCR nerfs were shall we say just slightly overkill.

and it stopped nothing....they are still to agile and too fast. They need a cut in twist distance and speed....would keep the mech fun IMO while cutting their tank-ablity to some degree.

Burn times and cooldowns are just a band aid. Not to mention i just switched my TBRs to ERPPCs and Gauss anyway....**** long beam times. SCR's to SMP laser and SRMS/Streaks.

[Vellron2005]

Please, everybody, PLEASE... just STOP with the nerf this, and nerf that threads... it's getting so old it's not even funny anymore..

Just leave the game as it is.. It's that way for a reason.. It's balanced just fine... Clans have their advantages and shortcumings, and so does the Inner Sphere..

Both sides are competative, both sides get kills and wins... so JUST STOP!

Most of these changes have no real in-game value... in the hands of a capable pilot, no amount of quirks will make any sort of difference...

Anyone who has ever played a dice table top RPG knows.. i't dosen't matter if you have +2 od +5 or -3 to a roll.. the d20 can always come up to a 1 or to a 20... Same thing in real-game situation.. you can stick your over-quirked mech in the crapper if I'm behind a hill, hiting you with LRM while my wolves are focus fireing you..

Edited by Vellron2005, 28 May 2015 - 11:32 PM.

[Khobai]

Clan laser overpoweredness is definitely responsible for this whole IS quirk mess. They shouldve just nerfed clan lasers to begin with and not given IS mechs such absurd quirks.

The problem with the clan lasers is their ridiculous range. The higher damage is offset by the longer burn duration. But absolutely nothing offsets the longer range.

Quote

Our range advantage was a stupid thing for PGI to implement, one thing they should have left out.

Yeah pretty much. Its the range on the clan weapons thats causing all the problems.

Quote

Both sides are competative, both sides get kills and wins... so JUST STOP!

Yeah if you use specific mechs with specific loadouts... thats competitive. While 3/4 of the mechs and weapons are not competitive.

Thats not acceptable.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Burktross, on 28 May 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

I haven't done anything for cERLL
But look at this.

From an objective standpoint, the cERML has a mere 10% advantage, which may be more or less depending on the weight of its advantages or disadvantages in the field of battle (duration is more important than cooldown, etc.). But consider that IS mLs are usually quirked at least 10%, the cERML get's a slight disadvantage, and that's at lower quirks. All things considered, the two simply work better in their respective niches: cERML at skirmishes, ML at brawls.

That's comparing apples and bananas, man... It may hold some merit if hardpoints were unlimited, but they aren't most of the time. Clans can do with 4 E hardpoints what IS needs ~6 to match, so you should at the very least add one more line for hardpoint efficiency and one more line for tonnage efficiency. The latter is partly offset by higher need for heatsinks but not entirely as long as it's an alpha game, then you always get more alpha / ton with clan laser vomit...

The real trouble is the clan XL engines, and that PGI choose to balance this with asymmetric balance. The PGI version of asymmetric balance in this case is that some clan chassi are nerfed to the ground with locked JJs and lack of endo/ff, (like the summoner) while some mechs are not nerfed at all (until the minor, yes minor, negative quirks lately which made the sky fall - for Timber/Crow). Soon we get a new batch of non-nerfed clan mechs too... there can never be balance between Clan and IS as long as PGI choose not to do anything to balance clan vs IS XL engines... while the weapons are different, they are not horribly unbalanced. There are pros and cons on both sides, that's OKish asymmetric balance imo.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 28 May 2015 - 11:52 PM.

[Rushmoar]

Drasari, on 28 May 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I ask this to try to prevent massive nerfs to other clan mechs that will be used more with the negative quirks being tested.

I would much rather have the c-ERL and c-ML take a 1-2pt damage hit then ending up with every clan mech with a -3per energy slot. Even a range adjustment on top of that. The advantage would still be some damage and range.

Basically I just feel the negative quirks are dealing with a symptom of the real problem.

Thoughts?


EDIT for the trolls. I own all the clan mechs and CW as Clan. I just don't want negative quirks to try to solve weapon imbalance.

No. just use negative quirks on some mechs for now. They need to redo the skill tree so Clans cannot take more of an advantage of 2X bonuses. I run Mist Links chassis and you want to nerf the 1 or 2 mediums i run on them. No

Edited by Rushmoar, 29 May 2015 - 12:07 AM.

[Aresye]

Gigastrike, on 28 May 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

The only thing about the Hellbringer that needs to be addressed is the Prime left torso.

Yup. All the popular builds with lasers generally put all of them in that left torso, with any extra in the left arm. Perhaps a zombie laser in the head, but for the most part, it's all about dat left torso.

Or players could...idk...shoot off that left torso? I mean, it's not like it's got some insane structure buffs. In fact, I don't think it's got any buffs there at all. Just a single component that, when destroyed, effectively neuters the entire mech along with its ECM coverage.

And let's not forget that Clan ER Mediums have a significantly longer duration than most of the IS laser vomit mechs (ex: STK-4N, RVN-2X, TDR-5SS, TDR-9SE), so shooting that left torso should be even easier considering they have more face time. Hell, most of the IS laser vomit mechs you can shoot your full damage on that left torso AND twist to spread their damage.

The only reason that left torso could even be CONSIDERED a problem, is when you can't hit that left torso, and I don't see how that's a balance problem. It's an easy to hit location that is pretty much an instant neuter. The only other mech I see regularly that even comes close to that, "All the eggs in one basket," problem is the WVR-6K, which has +18 additional structure, 15% faster energy cooldown, -25% LL Heat Generation, -12.5% Energy Heat Generation, +25% LL Range, +12.5% Energy Range, -15% Laser Duration, and a F****** GLORIOUS 25% FASTER TORSO TWIST SPEED TO SHIELD THAT ARM QUICKER!

So let's do a little comparison, shall we? HBR w/ 6 CERML vs. WVR-6K w/ 3 LL, 1 ML

Hellbringer:
- With frontloaded armor of 50/10, LT has 80 total HP.
- No quirks.
- 42 dmg over 1.15s duration w/ 36 heat.
- 3.65 dmg per 0.1 seconds of focused fire.
- Range: 405m
- Cooldown to Next Alpha: 3s

WVR-6K (10t lighter):
- With +18 additional structure, RA has 72 total HP.
- Massive quirks.
- 32 dmg over 0.85s duration w/ ~17 heat.
- 3.74 dmg per 0.1 seconds of focused fire.
- Range: ~619m
- Cooldown to Next Alpha: 2.76s

If the Hellbringer was shooting the Wolverine's right arm while the Wolverine was shooting the Hellbringer's left torso at the exact same time, and both of them twisted away exactly when their weapons were done firing, this would be the result:

The WVR would do 32 damage to the HBR's left torso with no lost damage, bringing its HP down to 48. The HBR would do 31 damage to the WVR's right arm with 11 lost damage (at this point the WVR twisted away), bringing its HP down to 41.

If both mechs twisted back at the conclusion of their cooldown to fire again, this would be the next trade:

The WVR would start off missing 0.24s while the HBR finished its 3s cooldown. The WVR would then do ~23 damage to the HBR's left torso with ~9 lost damage at the beginning, bringing its HP down to 25. The HBR would do ~22 damage to the WVR's right arm with 20 lost damage, bringing its HP down to 19 (notice how the gap is getting smaller).

So essentially, with 2 pilots having perfect aim and perfect timing on torso twisting, the HBR will neuter the WVR down to a single medium laser "slightly" faster than the WVR can neuter the HBR down to a single medium laser, which isn't bad considering the HBR is 10t heavier.

To say that left torso is unbalanced you would pretty much have to agree that the WVR's right arm is unbalanced.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 29 May 2015 - 01:00 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Clan ERML is still stupid hot for what you get.

With SCR and TBR nerfed, I would be alot happier with ERML heat rollback to where it started, so that lights and mediums get a little relief.

[Vellron2005]

Seriously... JUST STOOOOP....

"eyes bleeding"

[Widowmaker1981]

FupDup, on 28 May 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

At 700 meters, an unquirked IS LL will deal about 5 damage. That's Medium Laser damage for the weight of 5 Medium Lasers. It's a non-issue.

Frankly, I'd say that the IS ERLL actually is mostly better than the regular LL, because the heat difference is small and the 450m default range is kinda meh for what you pay to get it. Even then, it doesn't really feel that overpowered when I use it or get shot by it. It's an alright gun but not overwhelming or in need of nerfage.


Seriously, there is not a single Inner Sphere laser that is overpowered. Not one. Nada, zilch. You can possibly make an argument for some mechs to get their quirks bumped down, but the IS lasers themselves do not need a global nerfing.

While i agree IS lasers dont need any global nerfs, why do you discount duration as a factor? The duration is 95% of the reason when i decide to use LLs over ERLLs, the heat difference is far less of a factor tbh.

You have to remember that human reaction time from your eyes seeing something to giving your hand a command to move is around 0.5s or slower for most people (those tests where you wait for a dot to change colour and click on it give overly fast results, because they remove the 'thinking time' where you need to process what is happening and what you should do)

So a laser with a 1 second duration is 50% done by the time a normal person can even start to twist, allowing maybe 30% of the beam to be defensively spread. A C-ERLL though, the reaction time is the same, so there is still 1 second of beam left when you start twisting, allowing more like 60% of the beams damage to be defensively spread. IS pulse lasers, from a defensive twisting POV are effectively PPFLD. This also applies to offense, seeing the beam, following back to the source and shooting.

TL:DR Duration is a HUGE factor in lasers effectiveness and is underestimated by too many - a large cause of the Clan laser OP belief - if you dont think duration is important, then Clan lasers seem incredibly OP. But it is important, so much so that i consider the IS-LPL to be easily the best energy weapon in the game, clans included.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 29 May 2015 - 02:17 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Widowmaker1981, on 29 May 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

While i agree IS lasers dont need any global nerfs, why do you discount duration as a factor? The duration is 95% of the reason when i decide to use LLs over ERLLs, the heat difference is far less of a factor tbh.

You have to remember that human reaction time from your eyes seeing something to giving your hand a command to move is around 0.5s or slower for most people (those tests where you wait for a dot to change colour and click on it give overly fast results, because they remove the 'thinking time' where you need to process what is happening and what you should do)

So a laser with a 1 second duration is 50% done by the time a normal person can even start to twist, allowing maybe 30% of the beam to be defensively spread. A C-ERLL though, the reaction time is the same, so there is still 1 second of beam left when you start twisting, allowing more like 60% of the beams damage to be defensively spread. IS pulse lasers, from a defensive twisting POV are effectively PPFLD. This also applies to offense, seeing the beam, following back to the source and shooting.

TL:DR Duration is a HUGE factor in lasers effectiveness and is underestimated by too many - a large cause of the Clan laser OP belief - if you dont think duration is important, then Clan lasers seem incredibly OP. But it is important, so much so that i consider the IS-LPL to be easily the best energy weapon in the game, clans included.

<3 pulse lasers in every shape or form!

Though, it also makes clans win every stare-contest making you retreat (and don't deal damage) so there is some sort of suppression factor for fatties, while also pushing IS more towards PPFLD (non-dps) weapons more than vice versa.

Pros and cons with both, so laser-wise I think balance is quite fine.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 29 May 2015 - 03:14 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Drasari, on 28 May 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I ask this to try to prevent massive nerfs to other clan mechs that will be used more with the negative quirks being tested.

I would much rather have the c-ERL and c-ML take a 1-2pt damage hit then ending up with every clan mech with a -3per energy slot. Even a range adjustment on top of that. The advantage would still be some damage and range.

Basically I just feel the negative quirks are dealing with a symptom of the real problem.

Thoughts?


EDIT for the trolls. I own all the clan mechs and CW as Clan. I just don't want negative quirks to try to solve weapon imbalance.

Stop asking for Nerfs and grow a pair.

Thats my thoughts.

[Duke Nedo]

<- Liao, wtf? Suppose I have a Unit to drop when I get home from work?

[T0rmented]

Until every weapon is nerfed to the effectiveness of flamers the game will be imbalanced, until it takes 10+ mins of constant weapons fire on target to kill a locust, TTK will be too high. All weapons ineffective and useless = perfect game balance

[Elizander]

CERML is probably the biggest discrepancy followed by CLPL. I'm not sure how clan missiles are going under the radar with half weight but it might be next along with clan gauss. I'm not a big promoter of nerf clams but the way the quirks are being set makes it kind of silly to not have another look at the weapons themselves.

I'm more of looking at the difference rather than the weapons themselves.

Edited by Elizander, 29 May 2015 - 03:43 AM.