387 replies to this topic

[xX PUG Xx]

Dimento Graven, on 30 May 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

HOWEVER, after your comment I just have to point out, the 'stereotypical self-centric egotism' of the average citizen of the United States is not without some merit, so get over your jealousy and learn to work with us instead of hating us, then bitching we aren't helping you enough when times get tough...

I'll apologise for going off topic but after more than a decade of putting up with Xbox live "attitudes" to the world from Americans, writing it off due to the prominence of teenagers on that games platform. Then I come across the exact same level of BS amongst the more "mature" players in MWO, it riles me up.

I realise you are proud of your country, guess what? I am too and the only thing I can say I am jealous of is the lack of sunshine here compared to certain parts of the US. As for "asking for help" no idea what you're talking about but pretty sure Scotland hasn't required aid or bailouts from the US,

Anyway - politics, naff subject, each to their own and since this is a game played worldwide definitely the wrong place to discuss it.

But I do agree there is a certain "knack" to playing/using LRM's effectively and sitting hiding 1000 metres away from your target and 700-800 metres behind your team is not that "knack". Especially since Artemis is more effective with direct LOS and the LRM user can better assess whether to keep on target or switch.

[Dimento Graven]

xX PUG Xx, on 30 May 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'll apologise for going off topic but after more than a decade of putting up with Xbox live "attitudes" to the world from Americans, writing it off due to the prominence of teenagers on that games platform. Then I come across the exact same level of BS amongst the more "mature" players in MWO, it riles me up.

I realise you are proud of your country, guess what? I am too and the only thing I can say I am jealous of is the lack of sunshine here compared to certain parts of the US. As for "asking for help" no idea what you're talking about but pretty sure Scotland hasn't required aid or bailouts from the US,

Well, not a bailout here's a link to a recent event, probably wouldn't be hard to google up a few other examples:

http://rt.com/uk/221...e-mod-scotland/

Quote

Anyway - politics, naff subject, each to their own and since this is a game played worldwide definitely the wrong place to discuss it.

Well... True that. Anyway, if anyone were to ask me what nationality I was I'd respond, "Texan", anyway...

Quote

But I do agree there is a certain "knack" to playing/using LRM's effectively and sitting hiding 1000 metres away from your target and 700-800 metres behind your team is not that "knack". Especially since Artemis is more effective with direct LOS and the LRM user can better assess whether to keep on target or switch.

Absolutely agree, I've said it in this thread before I'll say it again, while it requires less skill to use LRMs than most other weapons, to utilize their true potential requires significant skill.

Unfortunately MOST people who use LRMs ARE NOT using much 'skill'. It's mostly lazy play:

Put little circle in big square.
Wait for big circle.
Pull trigger.
***** about people not holding locks for you.

[Pjwned]

DukeRustfield, on 29 May 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

LRMs are indirect fire super long range. It is ridiculous to think a weapon platform with a minimum range greater than some max preferred ranges on some weapons should be up front sharing armor. Because then it won't be using its main weapons effectively. When/if the enemy gets super close, he will indeed be a waste of a slot. If someone is a gauss sniper or AC/2 sniper, they're going to snipe. Not every build is going to comply with the "huddle up in a giant ball and barf on them when they come." Lots of mechs do, but there are, amazingly, different roles within the game.

It's not ridiculous at all to think that LRM mechs should be up front (or at least near the front) sharing some of the damage with their teammates, that's a really terrible scrubby attitude to have. You don't need to be super close to share some damage either, so if you see a good target but you don't fire because you're afraid of getting your paint scratched then play another mech and stop being bad.

I would also like to mention that using LRMs as super long range weapons is often a pretty bad idea because it gives the enemy so much time to take cover, and that should never be considered their primary purpose just because you can fire that far away. There are times where you can get a lock on a slow mech out in the open on a map like Tourmaline Desert or Caustic Valley or Alpine Peaks and it's fine to let it rain even if the enemy is pretty far away, but that happens less often than not and otherwise you should not be firing LRMs from super far away.

Edited by Pjwned, 30 May 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[AvatarofWhat]

DukeRustfield, on 29 May 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

LRMs are indirect fire super long range. It is ridiculous to think a weapon platform with a minimum range greater than some max preferred ranges on some weapons should be up front sharing armor. Because then it won't be using its main weapons effectively. When/if the enemy gets super close, he will indeed be a waste of a slot. If someone is a gauss sniper or AC/2 sniper, they're going to snipe. Not every build is going to comply with the "huddle up in a giant ball and barf on them when they come." Lots of mechs do, but there are, amazingly, different roles within the game.

#facepalm

If you think im advocating lrm mechs standing in the front of the group I dont really know what to say to you. LRM's may have a large max range, but travel time and incoming missile warning suggests that to get more damage you need to be closer otherwise you are giving the enemy too much time to react and go back into cover. Not in the front, but not way in the back. To do meaningful damage you need to guarantee they hit, and at least use tag to make sure that they are not spreading out too much.

Play at least another 5k matches and then come talk to me. Im sure you will figure out why lrms from super long range are innefective against any skilled player, and im sure your teammates will love you in the meantime for staying in the back and not sharing armor.

Edited by AvatarofWhat, 30 May 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Ragtag soldier]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

The M-16 had to be given a 3 round burst mode cause to many soldiers were spraying and preying. It is Standard Military Operation to put ordinance on the target till it stops twitching. Learn to fight.

your post contradicts itself. if it were standard military operation to spray and pray, they wouldn't have to add a burst-fire mode to restrict the ability to spray and pray.

it's standard operation to place ordinance into a target accurately and efficiently. it's animal reflex to keep pouring on the pain until it stops twitching. this playerbase needs to learn to fight like a soldier instead of some sun-baked "insurgent" and check your fire.

[Ragtag soldier]

AvatarofWhat, on 30 May 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

Play at least another 5k matches and then come talk to me. Im sure you will figure out why lrms from super long range are innefective against any skilled player, and im sure your teammates will love you in the meantime for staying in the back and not sharing armor.

LRMs are ineffective in MWO at long range because they have the slowest projectile flight times and an additional lock time requirement that restricts their usefulness in any capacity to "balance" them against the fact players hate indirect fire weapons.

also, it's better to shave off armor on a LRM boating 'mech than speed or weapons, since being too slow or being unable to fire back ensures you're killed much faster than being lightly armored. can't share what they don't have, you know.

[AvatarofWhat]

Lightfoot, on 30 May 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

I keep up with the team firing over their heads at whatever the target is, hitting it with my TAG laser, but once you start shooting LRMs you become the main focus-fire target so standing in the open with a weapon that has indirect fire capability is beyond dumb. Going one on one at range with direct-fire LRMs is good, what you want really, but you have to set up those opportunities and avoid focus-fire because once those LRMs go up it's like a giant shoot-me Flare.

BTW, Clan Artemis is broken. Or not worth using. Inner Sphere Artemis is still worth using, but is also bugged. Not what it used to be.

First of all, claiming you are the target that is going to be most focused is a cop out. People like to say that whatever they are driving is most focused to justify their passive weak tactics. You think your lrm mech is going to be focused harder then a timberwolf brawler in the enemies face? how about a 2 gauss 6 erml direwolf raining pain? please.

If you are indeed using tag then that is enough. You are exposing yourself and splitting the enemies attention so that NOT ALL OF THE ENEMY FIRE is put upon your front line mechs. If you are showing yourself to the whole enemy team then clearly you are going to get shot at a lot. Learn to work corners, learn to get angles.

If thats what you are doing, thats not a problem. The problem is when you have an lrm timberwolf with all its armor intact sitting out at 700+ meters waiting for his/her team to get locks. Your missiles are going to miss as much as they hit, when they hit they are going to be spread amongst not only torsos but arms and the ground as well, and you are not even doing your teammates the courtesy of sharing armor at all. The point is not to expose yourself to death, the point is to make sure that you have more mechs alive with weapons then the enemy team, because as long as you aren't stripped or dead you can contribute firepower as if you were fully armored.

[AvatarofWhat]

Ragtag soldier, on 30 May 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

LRMs are ineffective in MWO at long range because they have the slowest projectile flight times and an additional lock time requirement that restricts their usefulness in any capacity to "balance" them against the fact players hate indirect fire weapons.

also, it's better to shave off armor on a LRM boating 'mech than speed or weapons, since being too slow or being unable to fire back ensures you're killed much faster than being lightly armored. can't share what they don't have, you know.

The first part i agree with, its pretty much what i was getting at. The second part is so bad im not even sure what to say.

There are plenty of mechs where you can fit enough ammo and weapons to pack a punch, and go fast, while still being fully armored in all critical components. Jesus man, i mean you are also carrying explosive ammunition all through your mech! What are you going to do if you get flanked or if you get a light on your butt? Without armor you wont survive long enough to retreat to your team, have them come help, or even fight back with secondary weapons.

Is this what low elo is like? Coz suddenly im not even sure why i bothered.

[Ragtag soldier]

AvatarofWhat, on 30 May 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Is this what low elo is like? Coz suddenly im not even sure why i bothered.

low ELO is all the assaults trying to help the lone spider do a long flank, your front line trying to avoid targeting anything in the hopes the other side will run past them and they can get sweet backshots and any sort of support 'mech getting ambushed because literally noone mentions "hey we let 8 'mechs rush past us then decided we'd try to gang up on this enemy ice ferret they left behind"

i've never ones been able to "retreat" to my team because they let the enemy run right past them and our force in half. gotta hug that cover!

[Weeny Machine]

AvatarofWhat, on 30 May 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

First of all, claiming you are the target that is going to be most focused is a cop out. People like to say that whatever they are driving is most focused to justify their passive weak tactics. You think your lrm mech is going to be focused harder then a timberwolf brawler in the enemies face? how about a 2 gauss 6 erml direwolf raining pain? please.

If you are indeed using tag then that is enough. You are exposing yourself and splitting the enemies attention so that NOT ALL OF THE ENEMY FIRE is put upon your front line mechs. If you are showing yourself to the whole enemy team then clearly you are going to get shot at a lot. Learn to work corners, learn to get angles.

If thats what you are doing, thats not a problem. The problem is when you have an lrm timberwolf with all its armor intact sitting out at 700+ meters waiting for his/her team to get locks. Your missiles are going to miss as much as they hit, when they hit they are going to be spread amongst not only torsos but arms and the ground as well, and you are not even doing your teammates the courtesy of sharing armor at all. The point is not to expose yourself to death, the point is to make sure that you have more mechs alive with weapons then the enemy team, because as long as you aren't stripped or dead you can contribute firepower as if you were fully armored.

Obviously you haven't played an LRM mech for a long time. TAG someone and watch how several mech suddenly are drawn to you like flies to ****

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

So keeping the weapon using the mechanic it was designed to be used as, indirect fire support..and one that is legit in any combat game is a "crap mechanic"?

I guess ARMA shouldn't allow mortars or Grenade launchers, either? I don't really care if you like them or not, but I find your logic on it,........ fuzzy.

LRMs were never designed for fire support and in a MOBA FPS it's a crap mechanic. Even in ARMA it would be a terrible mechanic in a straight moba setup, though again apples to oranges - a mortar is not a weapon but a static weapon in a location and GLs are as direct fire as SRMs are. They have a bit of an arc but they work, in many ways, like I think LRMs should work.

LRMs should be a direct fire weapon. Give them a bit of an arc, sure. Faster travel time as well.

Indirect fire in a game like MW:O however is bad. One of the real strengths of MW:O vs other FPS/MOBA games is the tactical complexity it has the potential for. Indirect fire skews that and strongly rewards bad habits. The 'deathball' is the most primitive and simplistic aspect of it but more firepower concentrated on fewer targets is the ideal situation. LRM boats are trying to play the role of field artillery; the problem is that in truth all they're doing is robbing your team of 1 of its 12 fighting units. You want to create static Long Tom or Arrow IV positions that have to be, in some way, 'manned' that's awesome. I'd be all for it.

LRMs however are not somehow more destructive than other weapon loadouts. Playing an LRM boat largely involves you NOT being part of the firing line. That's no big deal - if you're a light or striker medium. Honestly I don't have an issue with a LRM Treb as a given rule. The 'Horse Archer' concept as it doesn't take a full fighting mech off the line. Still functionally inferior to direct fire but at least it's not hamstringing its team.

A heavy/assault LRM boat however is pulling 65, 80, even 100 tons off its firing line in order to do slightly *less* damage than it would from the firing line but take*no* damage from enemy fire - so long as its teammates eat the fire that it would have to keep targets. Also that the other team is bad enough to not counter the LRMs.

Indirect fire as its place. Spent hours this morning in ARMA 3 WLA and having a *blast* by taking a factory, creating 2 Scorcher mobile arty and 2 Sandstorm MLRS then going covert, sneaking behind enemy lines and calling in the explosive rain. Also found out that you can take an airport, build a Wipeout CAS aircraft and put an NPC in it who I can then direct to specific targets. Like the gift that keeps on giving.

That's not MW:O though. It's a large battlefield with expendable and fungible units in deployment. MW:O is a 12 v 12 MOBA and a indirect fire LRM setup functions, quite literally, by one guy sacrificing his team to try and get himself a better score. The whole team would do better if he put that tonnage into direct fire unless the other team is bad; in which case they'd still be winning with direct fire. In MW:O it's a crap mechanic.

[KuroNyra]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Having a LRM centric build is already being down a useful player.
They are terribly inefficient weapons that are so easy to completely neuter.

My Catapult is sad.

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

They are generally a waste of a player slot.

Is that a stealth insult against LRMS players?

Heck, I have been saved/ruined by some of theses guys, a good LRM player can ruin your day. Let's not mention if there is multiple ones.


I like how people tend to critic LRMS because it feel like "Point"n"Click", but what do they do with Laser vomit? Ho yeah, they point... And click.

Beside, you forget another aspect of the LRMS.
The Psychological one, NOBODY like to stay in the open receiving LRMS.


Heck, it's like the Maus in World of Tank, Once it appear, people usually stop and go back

Edited by KuroNyra, 30 May 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[Sixpack]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Having a LRM centric build is already being down a useful player.

They are terribly inefficient weapons that are so easy to completely neuter.


They often can't keep up with the deathball, and I'm not about to kill myself trying to support him, while he can't even damage the enemy.
Down a player, without saying a single thing.


I won't insult them when asking for locks; I'll just ignore them. I lock targets when I shoot them. I will not not get locks out of spite, but I won't stop torso twisting so he can pad his stats with useless damage.

They are generally a waste of a player slot.

Depends a lot on the gameplay and people you are together with. I did have a match where a premade with lots of ECM cover got LRM'ed to death by an organised defense. But generally speaking a lrm boat is not very effective in CW. Now if clan LRM's had no damage falloff....

Note: Was talking about CW.

Edited by Sixpack, 30 May 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[Raggedyman]

Aloha, on 29 May 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Honestly, if you dislike LRM as a weapon system, then don't use it, but to tell your own team mate to leave the match is a disservice to your own team.

TBH I think a fair chunk of that exchange is that people are feed up with hearing a request for locks.

The average PUG player is fully aware that missiles exist, and that people with missiles like locks. It's like going in and saying "shoot the bad guys" or "don't get killed", but as it's PUG life its got the added sense of "play this way so I can get my scores!". You're going to get as much kickback as anyone else on the PUG who starts making demands because you decided to PUG, so deal with it.

If you're upset that the PUG is PUGGING then Don't PUG, go and find a team that will give you all your locks. And if your build only works with locks then change your build so it'll work in the PUG queue. Don't spend your time (as I've seen on a number of occasions) going "OMG Y U NO LOCK 4 MEH!!!" because the answer is 'PUG team so we don't care!' and if we could we would batter you with your keyboard for not getting with the program.

Also if you are going to PUG don't quit a game if someone tells you to. I've been told to quit for LRMs, SRMS, lasers, ballistics, mech, camo pattern, warhorn, game name, and where my mech was dropped by the RNG. You just suck it up and go 'nah, I'm here to kick ass' then do ass kicking because it's a PUG and screw that jerk and his dirtball opinions.

So the TL:DR is PUG HARDER!!

Edited by Raggedyman, 30 May 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[BellatorMonk]

The people who say LRMs are a waste in general are just simply bad team players. They don't understand the usefulness of a good LRM build/player and obviously don't LRM themselves or are just bad at it.

The simple fact is when a LRM player can sh!t out 400-1000 points of damage a round, and you say that's a waste, then you are simply ignorant. How is that any worse than the pilot who scores sub-100 points of damage in a round no matter what mech they are driving.

If you have a good LRM player/build, and don't know how to utilize that fire power (spotting/locking), then you are the weak link in the team.

That is not the say LRMs are useful in every situation and map, anymore than a laser boat is on a hot map. Almost every weapon combo is situational and most times depends the pilot skill and actual teamwork that allows a pilot to make use of their weapons.

[Unit47]

BellatorMonk, on 30 May 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

The people who say LRMs are a waste in general are just simply bad team players. They don't understand the usefulness of a good LRM build/player and obviously don't LRM themselves or are just bad at it.

The simple fact is when a LRM player can sh!t out 400-1000 points of damage a round, and you say that's a waste, then you are simply ignorant. How is that any worse than the pilot who scores sub-100 points of damage in a round no matter what mech they are driving.

If you have a good LRM player/build, and don't know how to utilize that fire power (spotting/locking), then you are the weak link in the team.

That is not the say LRMs are useful in every situation and map, anymore than a laser boat is on a hot map. Almost every weapon combo is situational and most times depends the pilot skill and actual teamwork that allows a pilot to make use of their weapons.

lol

[Johny Rocket]

MischiefSC, on 30 May 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

LRMs were never designed for fire support and in a MOBA FPS it's a crap mechanic. Even in ARMA it would be a terrible mechanic in a straight moba setup, though again apples to oranges - a mortar is not a weapon but a static weapon in a location and GLs are as direct fire as SRMs are. They have a bit of an arc but they work, in many ways, like I think LRMs should work.

LRMs should be a direct fire weapon. Give them a bit of an arc, sure. Faster travel time as well.

Indirect fire in a game like MW:O however is bad. One of the real strengths of MW:O vs other FPS/MOBA games is the tactical complexity it has the potential for. Indirect fire skews that and strongly rewards bad habits. The 'deathball' is the most primitive and simplistic aspect of it but more firepower concentrated on fewer targets is the ideal situation. LRM boats are trying to play the role of field artillery; the problem is that in truth all they're doing is robbing your team of 1 of its 12 fighting units. You want to create static Long Tom or Arrow IV positions that have to be, in some way, 'manned' that's awesome. I'd be all for it.

LRMs however are not somehow more destructive than other weapon loadouts. Playing an LRM boat largely involves you NOT being part of the firing line. That's no big deal - if you're a light or striker medium. Honestly I don't have an issue with a LRM Treb as a given rule. The 'Horse Archer' concept as it doesn't take a full fighting mech off the line. Still functionally inferior to direct fire but at least it's not hamstringing its team.

A heavy/assault LRM boat however is pulling 65, 80, even 100 tons off its firing line in order to do slightly *less* damage than it would from the firing line but take*no* damage from enemy fire - so long as its teammates eat the fire that it would have to keep targets. Also that the other team is bad enough to not counter the LRMs.

Indirect fire as its place. Spent hours this morning in ARMA 3 WLA and having a *blast* by taking a factory, creating 2 Scorcher mobile arty and 2 Sandstorm MLRS then going covert, sneaking behind enemy lines and calling in the explosive rain. Also found out that you can take an airport, build a Wipeout CAS aircraft and put an NPC in it who I can then direct to specific targets. Like the gift that keeps on giving.

That's not MW:O though. It's a large battlefield with expendable and fungible units in deployment. MW:O is a 12 v 12 MOBA and a indirect fire LRM setup functions, quite literally, by one guy sacrificing his team to try and get himself a better score. The whole team would do better if he put that tonnage into direct fire unless the other team is bad; in which case they'd still be winning with direct fire. In MW:O it's a crap mechanic.

You do realize all of that is opinion.

[Kenoshi]

Not sure why the hate. LRMs are binary for sure but then again I hate being on the receiving end of one.

I actually go after ecm enemies first cause having LRM boats on your side is a good thing if the enemy has no stealth. It's funny watching mechs get vaporized by a couple of LRM 60s...

Hehe someone already mentioned this but since lots of peeps do low damage in pugs they must all be useless too.

[Weeny Machine]

Kenoshi, on 30 May 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Not sure why the hate. LRMs are binary for sure but then again I hate being on the receiving end of one.

I suppose there are several reasons why they are hated:
1. They were pinned to a place by LRMs
2. They were killed by LRMs while being unable to retaliate / A guy they fought got LRM support and they died
3. The forum pros said LRMs are N00b weapons and they just got killed by N00b weapon which is also suckage according to the forum...so what does make the guy who got killed by that? Correct: oversuckage. Result: Flaming on the forums

And actually that's the problem. Despite everyone says how much they suck (and lately they really do because of the ECM inflation) they can easily ruin a team's day.

The indirect fire ability is just brutal and cannot be balanced. Either it shuts down the enemy team or the LRM mech just sucks thanks to multiple layers of ECM.

Speaking of...ECM is the next catastrophe.

Both, LRMs and ECM mechanics need an overhaul. I don't follow Twitter so I wonder if anyone has asked Russ if they consider to rework those mechanics or if they are "working as intended".

Edited by Bush Hopper, 30 May 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[xX PUG Xx]

Dimento Graven, on 30 May 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Well, not a bailout here's a link to a recent event, probably wouldn't be hard to google up a few other examples:

http://rt.com/uk/221...e-mod-scotland/

LMAO, I stand humbly corrected. I'll just go sit over here with my Irn Bru and Whiskey *tips hat*