384 replies to this topic

[Averen]

Bilbo, on 29 May 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

If you use your whole team to do it, you are doing it wrong. Likewise, if your whole team is cowering behind rocks waiting for the rain to end, you are doing it wrong.

Strange things happen in pugcountry. :^)

LRMs have a lot less purpose in premades. They benefit a lot by the difficulties of pugplay, and especially when it comes to lowerskilled players who have trouble efficiently supporting their teammates (mwo is quite good at making that one harder than it needs to).

Edited by Averen, 29 May 2015 - 05:23 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 May 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Only in your own world I'm afraid. Let me explain how TAG works to you because it seems like you don't understand.

A tag laser is just as effective if it is pointed at a leg as it is pointed at a head or a CT. You can put it anywhere and have the same effect, or you can drag it all around a mech and it does the same thing. In order to be effective with lasers, you actually have to hold on to ONE component (CT or ST, depending on mech) and keep it there, and repeatedly shoot that same spot, in order to destroy it. TAG on the other hand, just needs to touch the mech, it doesn't matter where, and you don't have to point it at the CT to do damage to CT. Do you understand the difference now???

I know how TAG works. The point is the thread is lasers take as little or less skill to use than LRMs. Nothing about using them well, which as Bishop so kindly pointed are two entirely different stories for both weapons. You were stating LRMs are as easy as pointing a TAG laser at the target. Simply put, you are stating that one weapon is as easy to use as using a different weapon to facilitate the ease of use. If a weapon requires another weapon to be used more easily it is safe to say the former is more difficult to use than the latter.

LRMs are a low skill floor weapon with a high skill ceiling. Lasers are an even lower skill floor. No locks required, no minimum range, instant travel. Lasers are a see target, shoot target weapon where the only skill involved is keeping them on a target location. LRMs on the other hand, require locks in most situations (effective use of dumbfire LRMs against any kind of target is one of the most demanding weapon skills in the game), require range limitations be met, are the slowest traveling weapon in the game, and require a lock be maintained. Maintaining a lock may require less skill than keeping a laser on a target location (keeping a laser on target is a near trivial matter), but effectively using the lock requires a good deal of skill in positioning and use of available information lest one waste missiles on terrain or a target well screened by AMS.

The hit location accuracy is entirely moot as the only control the player has is the direction from which the LRMs come. Lasers give the player full control over the hit location for the weapon. Since there can never be a comparison in this aspect, one should never be made.

Personally, when it comes to LRMs I have gotten sadly rusty. I used to be able to break locks and reacquire them just to curve my missiles around vertical terrain like buildings. I can no longer do so reliably.

Funny thing about all this skill nonsense arguments between both lasers and LRMs, the only things the weapon systems have in common is they are weapons for 'Mechs, generate heat, and do damage. The weapons use different skill sets and have different tactics associated with them.

[Evan20k]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. People claim streaks or LRMs require no skill, but they turn around and use laser vomit and gauss vomit builds which are just as brainless to pilot. The argument that looking at someone requires more skill than knowing how to position yourself to maximize the amount of time you can keep a lock on someone doesn't hold water with me.

[Gut]

In lrms: you hold your mouse over a box that someone else provides for you (or you get for yourself, better, but not difficult to keep)
In streaks: the same, but you have to get your own box and have to move a little faster with the mouse
In lasers: you have to hold the mouse on a specific spot
In ballistics: you have to lead the shot

Yes, it's easy to just paint a mech with lasers.

Yes it's easy to click once and shoot someone who's standing still then get back in cover

But in order to do the most effective damage with them against targets who are moving, you have to be better than lock on.

Positioning for all of these to be most effective is almost the same. If you disagree, you haven't played top tier play.

Edited by Gut, 29 May 2015 - 05:30 PM.

[Evan20k]

I contend that SRM4s (and 2s) are the most skill intensive weapons in the game. You have to carefully position yourself to get into range while not getting torn up, and unlike SRM6s which are basically shotguns that hit the enemy's entire mech, SRM4s are far more precise allowing you to put all of that damage onto a single component if you're careful.

Edit: That said, the skill floor between all of the weapons isn't really that high. What makes or breaks a player is their positioning.

Edited by Evan20k, 29 May 2015 - 05:27 PM.

[oldradagast]

Remember:

LRM's "lack skill" because:

1) They have more hard counters than any other weapon in the game.

2) They are the only weapon to give a warning when you're under fire.

3) They travel slowly and scatter damage like crazy.

4) They have a huge minimum range.

Meanwhile, we're to believe that laser vomit is "real skill" because it requires no leading, no ammo conservation, no need to sync the flight speeds of different weapons, and no need to worry about minimum ranges.

Just more try-hard nonsense. Just how CW is the "land of real skill" - a land full of point-and-click laser vomit and free wins handed out to teams rolling PUG's... right... so much "skill."

Edited by oldradagast, 29 May 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Well by the time you manage to Tag your way through 3-4 ECM targets to launch your volley of Flying buckshot, you've already eaten about 3-4 Gauss rounds and maybe a PPC or two and some laser vomit.
And then at the last second you lose lock and miss that 1 single volley you nearly died to launch.
Why bother?

[oldradagast]

Mister D, on 29 May 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

LRM's are a "I'm going to sit back like a big puss while you do all the work" weapon.

Laser vomit, while you may dislike it, is much more honorable IMO because you are risking exposure to get your shots off with LOS smack in the face of the enemy.

I love laughable assumptions like this. "LRM's are bad because there are bad LRM players."

Newsflash: there's no shortage of dimwit gauss "snipers" hiding 1 km away and shooting 1 round per minute, achieving nothing. There's no shortage of laser vomit failures tapping things at near max range while overheating and thinking that they are "doing damage." There's no shortage of bad players, period. Just because LRM"s are the easiest weapon to - in theory - provide a hit on the target means absolutely nothing in reality because of the billion ways to counter LRM's and the skill required to actually DO something useful with them vs. just splatter a few hundred points of damage around per match.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Just for debate.

I hear all the time, that because of Lock On, LRMs are a no skill weapon.

I submit, because of hitscan, and accuracy percentage being shown as a "hit" even if the laser only brushed the target for a tick, is just as no skill, or more.

The sheer amount of people out there swinging their no skill Large Lasers around the map like Lightsabers is pathetic. Yes, they hit. A little bit, and usually spread all over the enemy mech. A blind, deaf chimpanzee could hit with lasers in MWO. What skill does that take?

Ah, but wait!

"To focus damage on one component takes mad skill" says the Tryhard.

And I agree. For those few who are able to do that, at anything but point blank range.

And I submit, to paint all LRM Users as new skill newbs, is just as inaccurate and disingenuous.

There is no single weapon with as many counters, and weaknesses, as LRMs.

Counters:
-Cover.
-AMS.
-Radar Derp Module.
-ECM.

Weaknesses:
-180 meter Minimum Range. Shorter maximum range than almost any other "long range" weapon.
-Inefficient damage spread, like an LB-X.
-Requires TAG, BAP and Artemis (and preferably a teammate with NARC and UAVs)to achieve maximum potential, removing crits, and hardpoints and tonnage, when already needing huge amount of ammo to justify in the first place.
-160 m/s projectile speed. Not only do acquiring locks, even with TAG take quite a while, exposed to PP-FLD return fire, but maintaining the lock is required, and at max range it requires that lock to be held fo 6.8 seconds, or the shot is wasted. Nearly 7 seconds for the enemy unit to brush off the lock. Even at shorter range, it take near 3 seconds AFTER acquiring a lock, to bring ordinance on target.

Fact is, for LRMs to be optimal, requires the LRM Mech to be 300.500 meters away, requiring over 2-3 seconds of exposure from time of seeing the target, to acquiring lock (IF the enemy isn't shielded by ecm) and Missiles arriving on target. And that only works if the enemy can't break LoS (particularly with Target Derp) or grab cover.

I submit, for arguments sake, that in all but Comp Tiers (LRMs are simply too slow and clumsy to be useful against mass lazer/gauss zerg rushes) to EFFICIENTLY and EFFECTIVELY use LRMs requires as much, if not more skill, as our Lazor Overlords.

Simple truth is, 90% of LaserSpammers are just as bad as 90% of LRMboats.


Argue away.

I support your argument. LRM's are primarily newb destroyers who have yet to learn the arts of "How not to be seen," "Shoot that big, glowy thing up in the sky called an enemy UAV," and "Own up to your own ******* mistakes."

In my experience, my LRM stats have the lowest hit percentages. Like you said, there's many factors involved and that can change inbetween the time from trying to gain a lock-on, launch, flight time, and contact. I average about 33% with IS missiles, and around 40% with Clan only because of <180 range launching. Piloting my A1 taught me how not to suck with missiles, so I don't just launch them every single chance I get... but even with a great situation to launch, not all hit the target... so there's that too.

I would also argue further that most people who use the fallacy of "<insert weapon name> needs nerfed" is either trolling, or needing Preparation H after being butthurt by said weapon because they lack the ability to learn from their errors. With people like this, it's clearly not because people can be better than them, it always has to be the mech or the weapons. Sure, getting pounded by missiles may cause a sudden outburst of profanity, but experience is the best teacher. Negative reinforcement made me more aware of cover, and how exposed each of my mechs could be, and average Time to Cover if caught out in the open with certain speeds during relocations.

Sadly, PGI can never quirk enough to compensate for stupid, so you'll always here people saying a weapon needs nerfed to compensate for their lack of ability or tactics.

[John80sk]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Argue away.

Simply put, LRM's take away 1 skill based mechanic (aiming) and do not add any additional skill based mechanics. Laser vomit builds suffer if a player has poor aim, LRM's do not. Your argument appears to be that low skill players use laser vomit, therefor laser vomit does not require skill. This does nothing to support your conclusion.

[Eider]

Its more about risk/reward. In my lrm boat the general rule of thumb is.. use up all lrms before i risk actually using lasers. Usually win that way and yes i never pure lrm.

[LordKnightFandragon]

LOL, i love how tryhards try to pass off holding the beam on target as taking mad skill...

Laser vomit is so easy a cat can do it......Tryhards try to pass this game off as so hard, it takes thousands of games to learn and get gud.....naw.. Its just as easy as any other shooter. It really boils down to who you get on your side....whether they are window lickers or not.

Laser vomit is a joke in terms of use and skill......why do we all think its so popular?

[El Bandito]

In the current reward system where kills are much better rewarded than assists, LRMs are poorer choice compared to lasers. The amount of "Most Damage Done" assists in my Lurm mechs is too damn high. Mostly because I think of the team, not myself.

[Wintersdark]

LRM's and Lasers both are ridiculously easy to use poorly, in low end play. LRM's because your foes just don't know how to counter them, and Lasers because you practically can't miss.

Lasers are easy to use as moderately - as your aim improves, they improve. Still, all you're doing is clicking on pixels; how hard lasers are to use is directly related to your manual dexterity and knowledge of where to point them. LRM's, however, at this point in play become extremely difficult to use - you can't just point at obscured red boxes and hold the trigger down anymore; players know how to negate LRM's.

At the high end, lasers are still not particularly difficult to use - you long ago learned where to fire, so it's just a matter of holding your beam where you want it to be. A good mouse is key, after that, just a bit of practice.

LRM's are *extremely* difficult to use effectively here. It requires multiple interacting weapons systems and utilities - UAV's, NARC, TAG, Artemis, careful range knowledge and positioning because your opponents WILL use complex cover. They won't just cower behind a rock, they'll use overhangs, pillars, they'll cause your LRM's to arc higher or lower by controlling engagement range in order to negate them.


So, yeah, it's easy to do really well with LRM's against new players. But once you're facing experienced pilots (not even necessarily "high elo"; just decent pilots) LRM's are extremely difficult to use effectively. Particulary, difficult to get their tonnage's worth.

Also: Yeah, as per another poster: Stop bringing 2500 rounds of LRM ammo. You don't need that much. If you're even able to use all that in a match and aren't getting 8+ kills, you're doing it horribly, horribly wrong.

[Eider]

oldradagast, on 29 May 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

I love laughable assumptions like this. "LRM's are bad because there are bad LRM players."

Newsflash: there's no shortage of dimwit gauss "snipers" hiding 1 km away and shooting 1 round per minute, achieving nothing. There's no shortage of laser vomit failures tapping things at near max range while overheating and thinking that they are "doing damage." There's no shortage of bad players, period. Just because LRM"s are the easiest weapon to - in theory - provide a hit on the target means absolutely nothing in reality because of the billion ways to counter LRM's and the skill required to actually DO something useful with them vs. just splatter a few hundred points of damage around per match.

Hate to say it but doing a pinpoint shot is way harder than using lrms where you get a giant reticle and only need to pass the target reticle once every 2 seconds to hit them. I have literally played lrm boat with one hand while reading, its that easy.

press R to lock on.. press fire weapons.. press r to lock on.. maybe adjust reticle slightly.. yep still behind mountain. If not for the swarm of ecm it would be brainless mode.

Edited by Eider, 29 May 2015 - 05:56 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Argue away.

Behind cover. Don't have to leave cover to shoot [and hit]. Leeches off others' target locks. Only has to keep reticle inside giant red box.

Yes, much skill required.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Just for debate.

I hear all the time, that because of Lock On, LRMs are a no skill weapon.

I don't call them no skill weapons as much as low skill floor weapons. Same as lasers actually. Actual gunnery skill in this game comes from the guys that are pegging the same component shot after shot after shot with PPCs and ballistics or are melting a hole in the same spot with their lasers.

Quote

The sheer amount of people out there swinging their no skill Large Lasers around the map like Lightsabers is pathetic. Yes, they hit. A little bit, and usually spread all over the enemy mech. A blind, deaf chimpanzee could hit with lasers in MWO. What skill does that take?

Ah, but wait!

"To focus damage on one component takes mad skill" says the Tryhard.

And I agree. For those few who are able to do that, at anything but point blank range.

The skill involved is actually just a lower mouse sensitivity. But the player being able to at least move the cross-hair over the enemy is a good start, which is rare trait in the vast majority of this user base.

Which is why LRMs and Streaks are good for low skill gunnery players, they don't have to pick a component to hit or even the mech itself, they just need to keep the small circle in the large square long enough for the large red circle to turn red and pull the trigger and do damage.

It's simply harder to keep landing a bullet in the same consecutive spot than it is to keep lasers on target than it is to keep the cross-hair in the box.

Quote

Fact is, for LRMs to be optimal, requires the LRM Mech to be 300.500 meters away, requiring over 2-3 seconds of exposure from time of seeing the target, to acquiring lock (IF the enemy isn't shielded by ecm) and Missiles arriving on target. And that only works if the enemy can't break LoS (particularly with Target Derp) or grab cover.

IS laser vomit requires between a 0.5 to 1.25 sec minimum window for a full burn and that's not accounting them taking the time to acquire the target and line up the shot. Clan laser vomit is essentially between 0.8 and 1.75 sec for a full burn time not accounting the time it takes to acquire the target and line up the shot.

And a bad with Lasers is going to get a partial burn on the enemy, so his 54 damage LOLpha is cut to 27 spread across the CT, LT, and LA with the rest wiffing completely.

Quote

I submit, for arguments sake, that in all but Comp Tiers (LRMs are simply too slow and clumsy to be useful against mass lazer/gauss zerg rushes) to EFFICIENTLY and EFFECTIVELY use LRMs requires as much, if not more skill, as our Lazor Overlords.

It's the speed meta. The team that wins is the one that gets the initiative first and can keep it. So it's all about speed.

Quote

Simple truth is, 90% of LaserSpammers are just as bad as 90% of LRMboats.

I'd say that most "Mechwarriors" are significantly worse at video games than any other player from any other PvP shooter I play.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 29 May 2015 - 06:02 PM.

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Simple truth is, 90% of LaserSpammers are just as bad as 90% of LRMboats.

No

First, laser users have the brains to not take LRMs so they are smarter right off the bat.

Second, lasers actually take aim. This doesn't make you a better player in terms of positioning but it does make you a player that is skilled mechanically.

I have only ever seen 1 good LRM player. If it's anyone but Jman5 in a 4J it's pretty much assumed it's a useless mech.

[MischiefSC]

LRMs are bad because they work by getting your teammates to take damage and get rekt so you can do damage at no risk. It's indirect fire that makes LRMs bad. You need teammates who are good for you to do well and enemies who are stupid for you to do well. There is a LOW skill ceiling with LRMs; you pick up a few basic skills, a bit of positioning and such but largely it's a fraction of the effort that, for example, rocking a consistent success with direct fire does.

LRMs work well because your team is good and the other team is bad. Your skill has a bit of an impact on that but not much. Direct fire (lasers or otherwise) are far more driven by the player skill.

That's the source of the rage. Sure there's some skill to use LRMs well. There is skill to making a frozen pizza vs making the whole thing from scratch. You still need to get it out of the plastic and on something that won't catch fire, then remember to take it out of the oven.

Similar concept. LRMs require and benefit from some skill. They certainly do. However, end of the day, indirect fire is a tool that rewards getting your teammates to go soak damage (often outnumbered, as you're not there) so you can do damage without taking return fire. That is entirely their benefit and 'advantage'. You can sacrifice teammates to avoid taking fire while doing scattered and imprecise damage.

That's why LRMs are bad.

[Ragtag soldier]

Fate 6, on 29 May 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

No

First, laser users have the brains to not take LRMs so they are smarter right off the bat.

Second, lasers actually take aim. This doesn't make you a better player in terms of positioning but it does make you a player that is skilled mechanically.

I have only ever seen 1 good LRM player. If it's anyone but Jman5 in a 4J it's pretty much assumed it's a useless mech.

lasers dont take aim. most laservomit starts long before anyone sees a dorito. "hey, enemies sometime go through those trees *BAAAAAAAARFFFFF* oh hey, we're on HPG, they have to come out of that that doorway, right? *BLLUUUUUUURRRFFFF!*

is laservomit took aim, i wouldn't have gotten hugged by the enemy in nearly every match. lasers are the weapon of choice for not aiming, since you just need to hit the alpha button when the enemy is more or less in the middle of the screen. you could teach a dog to play the game with lasers.