124 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well, it was most certainly better for me. But then, instead of whining on the forums, I instead chose to deal with those poptarts as if they were clay pigeons -- by shooting them in the back.

But now, we have Hover Jets. Those are without doubt absolutely fantastic. I'm sure Executioner buyers will be very happy with their JJ-equipped purchase.

And the best experience of it all was the time I almost involuntarily regurgitated lunch because of a specific "fix" certain segments of this "wonderful community" demanded and which PGI then chose to implement. Surely, that was the best of times.

JJs would be fine IF they would just pull the landing damage.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well, it was most certainly better for me. But then, instead of whining on the forums, I instead chose to deal with those poptarts as if they were clay pigeons -- by shooting them in the back.

But now, we have Hover Jets. Those are without doubt absolutely fantastic. I'm sure Executioner buyers will be very happy with their JJ-equipped purchase.

And the best experience of it all was the time I almost involuntarily regurgitated lunch because of a specific "fix" certain segments of this "wonderful community" demanded and which PGI then chose to implement. Surely, that was the best of times.

cool. So because you could ***** shoot, it was better. So those that actually wanted some variety in gameplay were whiners, when there were a million BETTER fixes offered by the community and Paul chose to "fix" it in an idiotic manner.

Good to know.

[C E Dwyer]

MechaBattler, on 01 June 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

I think the concern is that it would give Assaults, with all their firepower and armor, too much mobility and the potential for jump sniping.

So they reduce the gravity of the planets, reduce the fine control you have on the jets, and make them more powerful, think skyrocket, not Saturn V rocket, so you could in theory try to jump snipe, but your hang time would be so long its probably not a good idea.

That way JJ's get to be what they are for, covering ground fast, and Death from above, not whack a mole pop tart

Edited by Cathy, 02 June 2015 - 08:43 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Scout Derek, on 02 June 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

Makes me think:

Shouldn't clan JJets be better than IS???


Oh wait I forget, there's no logic in technology wise, we're already in mechs with fusion reactor engines that don't blow up even with the mech being blown up...

Fusion engines aren't supposed to blow up (or "go critical"). It was made up for the video games and was never in the Battletech lore (as far as i know).

Also, clan and IS JJs were always identical. (However, Clan Wolf in Exile does start making "improved Jump jets" in 3070)

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 02 June 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

JJs would be fine IF they would just pull the landing damage.

no, they wouldn't be. And the landing damage was one of the few things Paul did that made sense in principle. The nerfed heights and egregious lift speed of most mechs is the issue. One that could have been solved by simply extending the current reticle shake between .5 and 1 second after thrust was cut.

MechaBattler, on 01 June 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

I think the concern is that it would give Assaults, with all their firepower and armor, too much mobility and the potential for jump sniping.

easily countered. see above.

[Bishop Steiner]

Juodas Varnas, on 02 June 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Fusion engines aren't supposed to blow up (or "go critical"). It was made up for the video games and was never in the Battletech lore (as far as i know).

Also, clan and IS JJs were always identical. (However, Clan Wolf in Exile does start making "improved Jump jets" in 3070)

Warrior Trilogy, Warrior: En Garde, by Michael Stackpole, the Solaris 7 fight against Billy Wolfson. Hence the term "Stackpoling".

[Gas Guzzler]

I seriously doubt helping the Assault JJs a bit is going to somehow reignite poptarting. The Highlander build runs too hot, slow, XL engine, and slow PPCs. The Executioner would also run very hot with ER PPCs. And the Dire Wolf... that thing is so slow, you are still probably more deadly with dakka or gauss/pew.

[Joseph Mallan]

LordBraxton, on 02 June 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

Im just really hoping you read the sarcasm in my posts right now. Russ in interviews reminds me of the very beginning of Bladerunner.

I did read it... but felt it required a serious response cause Well The DEVs have a problem with words sometimes.

Attempting to softball double sinks not being double by trying to sneak in that they are Dual Heat sinks.

Quote

du·al
ˈd(y)o͞oəl/Submit
adjective
1.
consisting of two parts, elements, or aspects.
"their dual role at work and home"
synonyms: double, twofold, binary; More

[MechaBattler]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

no, they wouldn't be. And the landing damage was one of the few things Paul did that made sense in principle. The nerfed heights and egregious lift speed of most mechs is the issue. One that could have been solved by simply extending the current reticle shake between .5 and 1 second after thrust was cut.


easily countered. see above.

Yeah I guess that would work. In regards to pop tarting.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well, it was most certainly better for me. But then, instead of whining on the forums, I instead chose to deal with those poptarts as if they were clay pigeons -- by shooting them in the back.

But now, we have Hover Jets. Those are without doubt absolutely fantastic. I'm sure Executioner buyers will be very happy with their JJ-equipped purchase.

And the best experience of it all was the time I almost involuntarily regurgitated lunch because of a specific "fix" certain segments of this "wonderful community" demanded and which PGI then chose to implement. Surely, that was the best of times.

Gotta agree with ya Mystere. I had fun poking pop tarts. now when more than 2 of em were playing armed wack A mole that became challenging to deal with alone!

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

no, they wouldn't be. And the landing damage was one of the few things Paul did that made sense in principle. The nerfed heights and egregious lift speed of most mechs is the issue. One that could have been solved by simply extending the current reticle shake between .5 and 1 second after thrust was cut.

Yes they would you would be able to actually jump full height.

The landing damage was fine when a mech with full jets could leap halfway arcoss the map, now you need every once of burn on a Highlander to get to head height, which means big damage.

Yes or no, in TT Jumping mechs had reinforced structure to cushion the landings.

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 02 June 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Yeah I guess that would work. In regards to pop tarting.

Poptarting was the only real issue. Paul killed the VTRs and HGNs ability to flank and brawl first...... despite the fact that all the complaining was about poptarting, and only some masochists like myself actually were brawling. JJ mobility was NEVER an issue in the game, until the CTF-3D, HGN and Dragonslayer got turned into Toaster Pastries.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yokaiko, on 02 June 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Yes they would you would be able to actually jump full height.

The landing damage was fine when a mech with full jets could leap halfway arcoss the map, now you need every once of burn on a Highlander to get to head height, which means big damage.

Yes or no, in TT Jumping mechs had reinforced structure to cushion the landings.

Some Mechs were drawn with what looked like shock absorbers. But I never remember reading anything about reinforced structure.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I loved poptarting and I miss it. I found it far more entertaining than laser and laser/gauss vomit. TTK was higher because the alphas were 35. With laser and laser/gauss vomit the alphas are between 48 and 84.

I guess I'll just stick to poptarting in my Novas and Vindis while the rest of my mechs with JJs, expecially especially towards the fatty scale get Hoverjets™.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 02 June 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Yes they would you would be able to actually jump full height.

The landing damage was fine when a mech with full jets could leap halfway arcoss the map, now you need every once of burn on a Highlander to get to head height, which means big damage.

Yes or no, in TT Jumping mechs had reinforced structure to cushion the landings.

never spelled out in TT rules, as on a board game it is irrelevant. In lore, (which is no the same) it was inferred they had both reinforced legs AND used JJs to cushion landings. Doesn't matter how much you reinforce something, 30 tons dropping 100 meters takes damage. No unobtainium used in Battletech construction. (well, maybe a little)

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 01 June 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

IF ANYTHING jumpjets should have reversed diminishing returns. The first 1-2 jumpjets should be really weak. And each additional jumpjet should get progressively stronger. That would prevent abusing the system by taking only 1-2 jumpjets and encourage players to take more jumpjets or even the max jumpjets. That would make so much more sense...

... same with TCs.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 June 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Been playing MW4 a bit lately. I like how in MW4 you check a box taking all the JJs or none. Then the JJs perform great. And a key difference between MW4 and MWO JJs is the gravity. In MWO, you let off the jets and begin falling, and falling fast. In MW4, there's hang time and realistic downward acceleration.

The movement code in MWO is just "blech" altogether.

Indeed - MWO has almost four times normal gravity - 36.3m/s². There was a lot of discussion in chat during this live stream and it spilled over into the Reddit thread when the stream ended: http://www.reddit.co...some_uac_nerfs/

Problem is - the wrong value was integrated way early in the development process, so we can't change it now because all the animations are hard coded to work with it. Restore gravity to its proper value and all the mech animations will appear weightless and floaty, they'd have to be completely rekeyed, and that's a LOT of work.

... work that I think they should do.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

yes, because the game was better when it was all stationary toaster pastries?

Having a single totally dominant meta is bad for the health of a game.

However, Jump Jets alone did not contribute to that meta.

• PPC / Gauss near synch
  
• PPC / (U)AC 5 synch
  
• High tonnage requirements for full poptart builds (which means it's not as easy a design for many clan mechs, even the TBR)
  
• No falling leg damage
  
• Overall slower gameplay (assault mechs & cataphracts poptarting travelling 71 - 73 kph) not "89 kph NASCAR" from Clan mechs that can rush your sniper perch much easier and with as much range and MORE firepower.
  
• IS XL fragility was worth the gains in "speed & firepower" over STD engines - this is no longer so clear cut with clan mechs that can often travel faster, with more firepower and better durability.
  
• No other competitive weaponry or loadouts - game was limited to IS lasers & their ranges with no quirks and Ghost heat for 3 or more LLAS/ERLLAS, shorter ranged pulse lasers with worse stats. There was no such thing as "laser vomit" alphas doing 45 to 55 damage at 450 meters. There were no 70+ alpha Gauss+Laser Dire Wolves.
  
• SRM HSR fixes implemented.

It takes more than a single factor to create a meta - and Jump Jets were a single factor, not the entire reason for that meta.


So it remains to be seen what improving JJs greatly would actually do to gameplay, Poptarting would likely make a comeback to some degree but I don't believe it would be a singular, dominant tactic.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 June 2015 - 09:02 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 June 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

I loved poptarting and I miss it. I found it far more entertaining than laser and laser/gauss vomit. TTK was higher because the alphas were 35. With laser and laser/gauss vomit the alphas are between 48 and 84.

I guess I'll just stick to poptarting in my Novas and Vindis while the rest of my mechs with JJs, expecially especially towards the fatty scale get Hoverjets™.

cool, SO like Mystere, you are saying that because you liked it, everyone should have to do it? Because that is exactly where the game was, if you wanted to actually be remotely successful. (Sorry Joseph Mallon, carrying harder ain't the same as succeeding).

Had Paul done what I said, you still could poptart in big mechs.... if you invested in full JJs, and were good. And thus, the issue, it being the overwhelming complete meta, would have been solved without taking Poptarts from the hands of GOOD players. And even those would be less effective, but still viable. 5% of the population poptarting is not an issue. 90% of the population, was.

[Gas Guzzler]

This isn't about resurrecting poptarting, its about fixing 2-ton Class 1 jump jets that are used for little more than navigating over small rocks that normally trip you up.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

never spelled out in TT rules, as on a board game it is irrelevant. In lore, (which is no the same) it was inferred they had both reinforced legs AND used JJs to cushion landings. Doesn't matter how much you reinforce something, 30 tons dropping 100 meters takes damage. No unobtainium used in Battletech construction. (well, maybe a little)

But a mech NEVER took damage for the act of jumping assuming that you passed the pilot check to not fall over, which you had to land on something that broke to need at all.