124 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 01 June 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

The problem isnt the height the Dire Wolf jumps with 3 jumpjets. Thats understandable.

The problem is the height the Gladiator/Highlander jump in comparison. In the case of the Heavy Metal it has almost twice as many jumpjets as the Daishi but barely jumps any higher.

When youre paying 2 tons per jumpjet you should not get zinged that hard by diminishing returns.


IF ANYTHING jumpjets should have reversed diminishing returns. The first 1-2 jumpjets should be really weak. And each additional jumpjet should get progressively stronger. That would prevent abusing the system by taking only 1-2 jumpjets and encourage players to take more jumpjets or even the max jumpjets. That would make so much more sense...

The same logic should apply to clan targeting computers. The higher level computers should be better per tonnage than the lower level computers. Instead of the level 1 computer being the most efficient in terms of gain per tonnage.

Three possible situations here:

1- PGI is not familiar with the concept of non-linear equations

2- PGI is familiar with the concept but they can not edit the MWO code... as the only people who should be able to code mwo.

3- someone went too far killing a certain dev with poptarts.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

cool, SO like Mystere, you are saying that because you liked it, everyone should have to do it? Because that is exactly where the game was, if you wanted to actually be remotely successful. (Sorry Joseph Mallon, carrying harder ain't the same as succeeding).

Had Paul done what I said, you still could poptart in big mechs.... if you invested in full JJs, and were good. And thus, the issue, it being the overwhelming complete meta, would have been solved without taking Poptarts from the hands of GOOD players. And even those would be less effective, but still viable. 5% of the population poptarting is not an issue. 90% of the population, was.

No. They nerfed the living **** out of poptarting with tons of collateral. Then they buffed the living **** out of lasers.

So now 90% of the population is vomiting rainbows with the occasional gauss slug thrown in.

And I guess you forget that Mystere and I were right there with you. And we were saying the same things you were saying.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 02 June 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Yokaiko]

....and people are still whining about guass....

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 June 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Gotta agree with ya Mystere. I had fun poking pop tarts. now when more than 2 of em were playing armed wack A mole that became challenging to deal with alone!

Well, it was challenging alright if you were alone. But then again, they couldn't exactly shoot back at you if they couldn't see you.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

cool. So because you could ***** shoot, it was better. So those that actually wanted some variety in gameplay were whiners, when there were a million BETTER fixes offered by the community and Paul chose to "fix" it in an idiotic manner.

Good to know.

I guess it was a problem if people were unable to shoot. But isn't being able to ***** shoot kinda, sorta a requirement in this game?

Snark aside ...

If I recall correctly, the "add screen shake" and "Nerf jump jets NAO!!!" crew were the loudest of them all, and hopefully we all know by now whom PGI listens to the most. Or were the recent Clan nerfs already ancient history?

Yokaiko, on 02 June 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

JJs would be fine IF they would just pull the landing damage.

Landing damage is fine. It's the Hover Jets themselves I really "dislike" (to put things ever so mildly).

[Yokaiko]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

I guess it was a problem if people were unable to shoot. But isn't being able to ***** shoot kinda, sorta a requirement in this game?

Snark aside ...

If I recall correctly, the "add screen shake" and "Nerf jump jets NAO!!!" crew were the loudest of them all, and hopefully we all know by now whom PGI listens to the most. Or were the recent Clan nerfs already ancient history?



Landing damage is fine. It's the Hover Jets themselves I really "dislike" (to put things ever so mildly).

Agreed, I keep 5 JJs on my Metal just to remind myself. For a full burn I really should get higher than waist level, I can't even clear a light.

[McMurl]

Maybe a good fix would be to give Assault mechs higher jump height, but slower jump speed. The intended effect is that you arent travelling upwards once you run out of fuel, Ie when the mist lynx continues climb after fuel runs out. you may jump higher, it would just take longer, and you wouldnt float, therefor lessening the time available to jump sniper accurately. Im hoping this makes sense. bear with me.

Assault engages jump jets, assault slowly climbs, but gets up decently high, but still suffering from JJ accuracy penalties. the moment the assault runs out of fuel, it stops dead in the air and quickly falls back to the ground due to sheer weight.

I think that this would be a good change for assault JJs, but would still help limit poptarting due to not having enough time to do anything.

Edited by grievoussmaug, 02 June 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Mystere]

Yokaiko, on 02 June 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Agreed, I keep 5 JJs on my Metal just to remind myself. For a full burn I really should get higher than waist level, I can't even clear a light.

I bought the HM precisely to practice Highlander Burials. But alas, it ain't happening ever I guess.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 June 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Having a single totally dominant meta is bad for the health of a game.

However, Jump Jets alone did not contribute to that meta.

• PPC / Gauss near synch
  
• PPC / (U)AC 5 synch
  
• High tonnage requirements for full poptart builds (which means it's not as easy a design for many clan mechs, even the TBR)
  
• No falling leg damage
  
• Overall slower gameplay (assault mechs & cataphracts poptarting travelling 71 - 73 kph) not "89 kph NASCAR" from Clan mechs that can rush your sniper perch much easier and with as much range and MORE firepower.
  
• IS XL fragility was worth the gains in "speed & firepower" over STD engines - this is no longer so clear cut with clan mechs that can often travel faster, with more firepower and better durability.
  
• No other competitive weaponry or loadouts - game was limited to IS lasers & their ranges with no quirks and Ghost heat for 3 or more LLAS/ERLLAS, shorter ranged pulse lasers with worse stats. There was no such thing as "laser vomit" alphas doing 45 to 55 damage at 450 meters. There were no 70+ alpha Gauss+Laser Dire Wolves.
  
• SRM HSR fixes implemented.

It takes more than a single factor to create a meta - and Jump Jets were a single factor, not the entire reason for that meta.


So it remains to be seen what improving JJs greatly would actually do to gameplay, Poptarting would likely make a comeback to some degree but I don't believe it would be a singular, dominant tactic.

at any point did I say otherwise? Or have I said all these things in total, all along? So not sure where you are going here.

Yokaiko, on 02 June 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

But a mech NEVER took damage for the act of jumping assuming that you passed the pilot check to not fall over, which you had to land on something that broke to need at all.

because it could just as easily be assumed that passing that piloting check implied you reserved enough thrust to cushion the fall?

"assuming" kinda works both ways.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

at any point did I say otherwise? Or have I said all these things in total, all along? So not sure where you are going here.

He is getting at if you fix a couple of things poptarting isn't going to be zOMG OP again.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

at any point did I say otherwise? Or have I said all these things in total, all along? So not sure where you are going here.


because it could just as easily be assumed that passing that piloting check implied you reserved enough thrust to cushion the fall?

"assuming" kinda works both ways.

Than you can assume that you didn't need a full burn to reach full height.

Right?

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 June 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

No. They nerfed the living **** out of poptarting with tons of collateral. Then they buffed the living **** out of lasers.

So now 90% of the population is vomiting rainbows with the occasional gauss slug thrown in.

And I guess you forget that Mystere and I were right there with you. And we were saying the same things you were saying.

Hard to remember when all your posts are simply reminiscing about the "good old days" of poptarting, and seem to skip the 6 months to a year between then and the relatively recent rise of the Large Laser meta. Perhaps if you two didn't post in such a way as to seem to be counter arguing what I am saying, it would not seem so? But since I am saying the very things you seem to be saying you were saying, not sure why the arguing?

But I will say, that even now, the current Meta is better than the height of the Poptart or the PPC/Gauss/Insert gauss replacement AC here) metas in that they are not as overpowering, and you have to be real bad to get insta cored for peeking by lasers, compared to the "peek" near aimbot accuracy 50 pt alpha, dead crap of yesteryear.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 June 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

He is getting at if you fix a couple of things poptarting isn't going to be zOMG OP again.

you mean what I have been saying since before they finally "fixed" Poptarting? Excelsior.

Yokaiko, on 02 June 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Than you can assume that you didn't need a full burn to reach full height.

Right?

You can assume you could use your burn for many things. You will notice many things are governed, or use terms like "maximum safe speed". That implies you can go beyond. So one could, using your assumption method, assume, one could use every ounce of reaction mass to jump to 100 meters height or more..... and then splat and explode when you land, or that said heights and distances were factored in having enough fuel for safe landings, and like everything else in Btech simplified for the sake of simplicity.

But feel free to keep arguing for the sake of, and get your last word in, as I have said my piece. Your "picture" of how things work, and mine are obviously diametrically different, so I see no point wasting time arguing with you.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 June 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

If I recall correctly, the "add screen shake" and "Nerf jump jets NAO!!!" crew were the loudest of them all, and hopefully we all know by now whom PGI listens to the most. Or were the recent Clan nerfs already ancient history?



Landing damage is fine. It's the Hover Jets themselves I really "dislike" (to put things ever so mildly).

Ignoring the snark (you're not as good at it as you think), at what point did the loudest of the frothing masses ever have the right idea? About the only time I have seen intelligent ideas forwarded by the majority (aka thinking through the consequences not just now, but in the future) was over 3pV. And when they removed GenDis to stop Threadnaughts protesting 3pV.

Aside from those, most of the "popular" ideas have been downright myopic.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

Ignoring the snark (you're not as good at it as you think),

It really ain't my thing, so

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

at what point did the loudest of the frothing masses ever have the right idea? About the only time I have seen intelligent ideas forwarded by the majority (aka thinking through the consequences not just now, but in the future) was over 3pV. And when they removed GenDis to stop Threadnaughts protesting 3pV.

Aside from those, most of the "popular" ideas have been downright myopic.

We don't disagree on that. But, why does PGI keep listening to them then?

As for 3PV, I was one of those very brave souls who were not opposed to it. In fact, I believe that one can be improved considerably.

Edited by Mystere, 02 June 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[McMurl]

ok, enough of the banter guys, constructive ideas is what changes the games, not peoples internet behavior.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

Hard to remember when all your posts are simply reminiscing about the "good old days" of poptarting, and seem to skip the 6 months to a year between then and the relatively recent rise of the Large Laser meta. Perhaps if you two didn't post in such a way as to seem to be counter arguing what I am saying, it would not seem so? But since I am saying the very things you seem to be saying you were saying, not sure why the arguing?

But I will say, that even now, the current Meta is better than the height of the Poptart or the PPC/Gauss/Insert gauss replacement AC here) metas in that they are not as overpowering, and you have to be real bad to get insta cored for peeking by lasers, compared to the "peek" near aimbot accuracy 50 pt alpha, dead crap of yesteryear.

Because unlike your posts of late that come off as "stock mode or bust" I actually want everything to be viable. I don't want one overpowering meta. I didn't like it when it was "gausscat or bust," I didn't like it when it was "poptart or bust," and I don't like it now that it's "timber/stalker puke or bust."

The alphas have gotten bigger and the TTKs even with all the ridiculous armor/structure buffs have dropped dramatically. Having matches that last less three minutes was unheard of during the Toaster Pastry Wars, now I see multiple sub three minute matches nightly.

Absolutely killing a playstyle is the wrong way to go. Clan laser vomit wasn't some hideous creature that emerged post PPC jumpjet nerf. It was strong since day one. It just so happened that the IS had one advantage pre-quirks, the Dragonslayer/cataphract pinpoint poptart. Then they nerfed poptarting and suddenly the IS couldn't fight back even after the first round of clan laser vomit nerfs. And you know what? I called it before it even happened. So damn near every other comp player.

If you haven't noticed the trend, it's all about which IS mechs have the best laser vomit quirks because PGI keeps listening to all the TwitterTards that blow up his Twitter with "NERF THIS, NERF THAT!" So those of us that want multiple playstyles useful get drowned out by all the vitriol stemming from the previous meta.

Protip: comp players don't give a flying **** about the meta. They know if you nerf one meta into Oblivion, another crops up that they all shift to. And that's what happened when JJs and PPCs were savaged because people bitched about poptarting. They just wanted it gone, not balanced. Which is what is happening again with laser vomit.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 June 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Because unlike your posts of late that come off as "stock mode or bust" I actually want everything to be viable. I don't want one overpowering meta. I didn't like it when it was "gausscat or bust," I didn't like it when it was "poptart or bust," and I don't like it now that it's "timber/stalker puke or bust."

The alphas have gotten bigger and the TTKs even with all the ridiculous armor/structure buffs have dropped dramatically. Having matches that last less three minutes was unheard of during the Toaster Pastry Wars, now I see multiple sub three minute matches nightly.

Absolutely killing a playstyle is the wrong way to go. Clan laser vomit wasn't some hideous creature that emerged post PPC jumpjet nerf. It was strong since day one. It just so happened that the IS had one advantage pre-quirks, the Dragonslayer/cataphract pinpoint poptart. Then they nerfed poptarting and suddenly the IS couldn't fight back even after the first round of clan laser vomit nerfs. And you know what? I called it before it even happened. So damn near every other comp player.

If you haven't noticed the trend, it's all about which IS mechs have the best laser vomit quirks because PGI keeps listening to all the TwitterTards that blow up his Twitter with "NERF THIS, NERF THAT!" So those of us that want multiple playstyles useful get drowned out by all the vitriol stemming from the previous meta.

Protip: comp players don't give a flying **** about the meta. They know if you nerf one meta into Oblivion, another crops up that they all shift to. And that's what happened when JJs and PPCs were savaged because people bitched about poptarting. They just wanted it gone, not balanced. Which is what is happening again with laser vomit.

I have never posted stock mode or bust, so TBH, I stopped reading your post right there. Closest I have ever come is 1) to support adding a stock mode, and 2) to suggest basic quirks should be around stock loadouts. If you can't tell the difference between the two extremes, that's on you.

When feeling like posting objectively, and not with your knickers in a twist, get back to me.

[Khobai]

Quote

....and people are still whining about guass....

and why wouldnt they be? high damage, long range, practically no heat, and charge-up is a joke... gauss is still one of the best weapons in the game. especially for mechs like the gridiron.

honestly I would be surprised if players WERENT whining about that...

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[DONTOR]

2 JJs on a DW can get me up to some pretty rediculous places that a DW probably shouldnt be, 4 on a 95 ton mech will be plenty of height.
But damn is it SLOW to get up to the max height in an assault...

[Wildstreak]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 June 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

This isn't about resurrecting poptarting, its about fixing 2-ton Class 1 jump jets that are used for little more than navigating over small rocks that normally trip you up.

It is not just the Class 1 JJs needing a looking.

In the Class 5, a Mist Lynx with 6 JJs dances through the air in ballerina moves while 2 Panthers, one with 4 JJs and one with 8, both struggle in the exact same way. I find the same in every JJ Class, the heavier Mechs within a JJ class do worse than the lighter ones.

I do not understand why every listing I see for JJs has a tonnage overlap.
Class 1, 90-100 ton Mechs
Class 2, 80-90 ton Mechs
Class 3, 60-80 ton Mechs
Class 4, 40-60 ton Mechs
Class 5, 20-40 ton Mechs

Why are the Class 3 & 4 given preferential treatment in vertical lift while Class 5 has the worst?

Whole system seems broke.

I wonder if JJ quirks are possible.