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Consumables Destroy Tactics And Mech Builds/roles


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#121 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 05:55 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 June 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Neg, they're good as they stand and are better than consumables in a lot of other games.

A bad idea being better than a worse idea has never carried much merit with me. I would prefer a justification that addresses why everything in this game is balanced in limited resources (tonnage, crits, HP), except consumables.
Why is narc 3 tons, projectile, single target, ammo dependant; while uav is a free add
-on (if you don't think it is free, it is because you don't monitor your chill rewards)

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 08 June 2015 - 05:58 PM.


#122 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 05:59 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 June 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

A bad idea being better than a worse idea has never carried much merit with me. I would prefer a justification that addresses why everything in this game is balanced in limited resources (tonnage, crits, HP), except consumables.
Why is marc 3 tons, projectile, single target, ammo dependant; while uav is a free add
-on (if you don't think it is free, it is because you don't monitor your chill rewards)


Every F2P game has consumables. This one's system is a lot better than others. Griefing about it is pointless; they're here to stay. Deal with it. A lot of people like them and would like to see them expanded with such things as air drops for light tanks or infantry, strafing fighters (or bombers, VTOLs, or choppers), smoke, flares, new drones, decoys, etc. They all add to the depth of the game.

I really don't see why people grief so much over consumables. They're a lot of fun and add much needed gameplay diversity.

#123 Mystere

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:06 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 June 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

Can't you simply let something be? Everyone has equal access. Not everything has to have significant negatives associated with it. Frankly, I think the Consumables are fine as they are. Pilot skill remains the primary driver of the matches.


It seems some people's idea of balance is a zero-sum game.

#124 MechWarrior3671771

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:10 PM

"They need to cost tonnage, crit slots, and hardpoints to be adequately balanced"

That will just penalize lights. Since there is no true scouting or information warfare role for us, its all I can do make my Raven 3L fun and interesting to play. Its bad enough that my best alpha builds are 23 pinpoint with pulse, or 32 spread with 3MLs and 8 SRM artemis.

#125 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:17 PM

View PostFenrisulvyn, on 08 June 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

"They need to cost tonnage, crit slots, and hardpoints to be adequately balanced"

That will just penalize lights. Since there is no true scouting or information warfare role for us, its all I can do make my Raven 3L fun and interesting to play. Its bad enough that my best alpha builds are 23 pinpoint with pulse, or 32 spread with 3MLs and 8 SRM artemis.


Bingo!

Best way to balance them is exactly the way PGI has already done it; give Lights and Meds more that Heavies or Assaults, and allow them to equip more Mech and Weapon Modules too.

#126 Mystere

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:19 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 June 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

Consumables as designed are a horrible throwback to the IGP thoery of game design. They need to cost tonnage, crit slots, and hardpoints to be adequately balanced


No they don't. Balance can be as simple as equal access. It does not have to be a zero-sum calculation.

#127 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:37 PM

View PostMystere, on 08 June 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

No they don't. Balance can be as simple as equal access. It does not have to be a zero-sum calculation.

This is a zero-sum game, based on construction rules, this has been demonstrated by PGI refusal to implement asymmetrical clan warfare.
Buy definition zero-sum means balance, there is no reason why UAV cannot cost (tonnage/20) and Arti cost a flat 5.0 (favoring heavy chassis), and maybe air is only 2.5 but 14 crit slots.

Nothing for fee, balance and counterbalance.

#128 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:46 PM

View PostMystere, on 08 June 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:


No they don't. Balance can be as simple as equal access. It does not have to be a zero-sum calculation.


Bingo!

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 June 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

This is a zero-sum game, based on construction rules, this has been demonstrated by PGI refusal to implement asymmetrical clan warfare.
Buy definition zero-sum means balance, there is no reason why UAV cannot cost (tonnage/20) and Arti cost a flat 5.0 (favoring heavy chassis), and maybe air is only 2.5 but 14 crit slots.

Nothing for fee, balance and counterbalance.


That's not balanced. Normally, strikes are called in by radio, something every Mech has. Your suggestion would kill it for Lights and Mediums.

Also, 14 crit slots? As much as Ferro or Endo??? You're out of you mind!

#129 Mystere

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:51 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 June 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

That's not balanced. Normally, strikes are called in by radio, something every Mech has. Your suggestion would kill it for Lights and Mediums.

Also, 14 crit slots? As much as Ferro or Endo??? You're out of you mind!


That's because he does not really want balance. He just wants consumables totally eliminated. Why else would he ask for such ridiculous "balance" criteria?

#130 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:55 PM

View PostMystere, on 08 June 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:


That's because he does not really want balance. He just wants consumables totally eliminated. Why else would he ask for such ridiculous "balance" criteria?


True words those...

#131 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 07:02 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 June 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:


That's not balanced. Normally, strikes are called in by radio, something every Mech has. Your suggestion would kill it for Lights and Mediums.

Also, 14 crit slots? As much as Ferro or Endo??? You're out of you mind!

Science and pseudo science are dressings outside of the game mechanics, the means of calling an air/artillery/orbital/death star attack, can be explained later, like unlimited range smoke canisters in zero atmosphere.

The values are arbitrary, but designed to represent an opportunity cost. That cost must come from the limited resourced available, and must impact the decision making process.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 08 June 2015 - 07:04 PM.


#132 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 07:03 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 June 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

That cost must come from the limief resourced avsilbe, and must impact the decision making process.


Are you posting drunk?

#133 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 07:08 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 June 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Are you posting drunk?

Sadly from my phone, which fights me at every turn. I have fixed the post in question

#134 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 07:19 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 June 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

Sadly from my phone, which fights me at every turn. I have fixed the post in question


Still doesn't improve your argument, lol,

#135 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 08:56 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 June 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Still doesn't improve your argument, lol,


Is that the definition of perfection? the point at which something cannot be improved.

Your praise is appreciated, but I would love to hear a compelling argument opposing the integration of consumables into the existing model of game balance.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 08 June 2015 - 08:57 PM.


#136 Kiiyor

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 09:16 PM

View Posthappy mech, on 06 June 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

i think game would be better without consumables, unless they are a major revenue for pgi

what you think?


I think UAV's and coolshots are fine. UAV's are a great tactial tool, with a nice counter (everyone can see and shoot it). Coolshots, while offering a more definitive personal advantage, aren't spectacularly effective, they're just handy to squeeze out another alpha.

Artillery and Airstrikes though, I loathe, with every fiber of my being. ***'s far too easy to drop them in places where enemies can't even see the plume, and the damage they do is ludicrous. I'd much rather be killed by a canny and worthy foe than a mouse click and run.

#137 Escef

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 09:43 PM

View PostCarrioncrows, on 08 June 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Fun. Fun would be gained.


Fun is subjective. Some of us like Strikes being here. You want to take our fun away, you oppressive s***lord.

View PostMoldur, on 08 June 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Ok, you're right. You win. Mechwarrior is a lot better with artillery, airstrikes, and UAVs. If we could remove mechs altogether, that would make it a truly great game.


Straw man and hyperbole? Is that the best you've got at this point? So far the best argument anyone has made for the removal of consumables is "I don't like them." Which is an abnormally s***ty argument.

Edited by Escef, 08 June 2015 - 09:46 PM.


#138 Anjian

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 12:12 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 June 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:


Every F2P game has consumables. This one's system is a lot better than others. Griefing about it is pointless; they're here to stay. Deal with it. A lot of people like them and would like to see them expanded with such things as air drops for light tanks or infantry, strafing fighters (or bombers, VTOLs, or choppers), smoke, flares, new drones, decoys, etc. They all add to the depth of the game.

I really don't see why people grief so much over consumables. They're a lot of fun and add much needed gameplay diversity.



War Thunder doesn't.

Air strikes, artillery strikes, are free but earned by performing certain acts in battle (a kill for instance).

Edited by Anjian, 09 June 2015 - 12:14 AM.


#139 Nightmare1

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 04:41 AM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 June 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

I would love to hear a compelling argument opposing the integration of consumables into the existing model of game balance.


There have been several from various pilots, but you remain steadfastly opposed, so you ignore them and discount them. It kind of reminds me of flat-earthers, "We don't like or agree even though it's probably true, so we're sticking with our viewpoint while ridiculing the other one!"

There is no sense in discussing this with you further. Head-in-the-sand types never listen.

#140 Nightmare1

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 04:53 AM

View PostKiiyor, on 08 June 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:


I think UAV's and coolshots are fine. UAV's are a great tactial tool, with a nice counter (everyone can see and shoot it). Coolshots, while offering a more definitive personal advantage, aren't spectacularly effective, they're just handy to squeeze out another alpha.

Artillery and Airstrikes though, I loathe, with every fiber of my being. ***'s far too easy to drop them in places where enemies can't even see the plume, and the damage they do is ludicrous. I'd much rather be killed by a canny and worthy foe than a mouse click and run.


I agree with you on UAVs. On strikes, I disagree. It's not that hard to avoid them; they're really only effective against a death ball or a static enemy who's too dumb to move around. They also don't deal that much damage anymore since their nerfs. I got caught in three separate strikes in one match with my HBK and they didn't open any armor. In fact my armor only turned the icky yellow color that's not quite orange but not fully yellow anymore either. I remember thinking, "Shoot, strikes are annoying to get hit by but sure aren't very scary any more."

That being said, I've run experiments with them and determined that they are really only dangerous if you have exposed components. Case in point, I stripped the armor of my CN9-YLW's cockpit for the Leaderboard event. I often run through a strike to get at an opponent; the amount of damage dealt by a strike is usually pitiful enough that it is worth incurring the damage to take down a fleeing foe. Though my Mech suffered only minor damage, the cockpit was critted from the splash damage and I died. I decided to test this a few more times. Each result was the same; minor damage but a critted cockpit. I also tested this with other exposed components. Results were the same. If I had armor, it tickled. If I had an exposed component, it was devastating.

Strikes are really only dangerous because of their high crit values on the dice roll. So long as you have armor, you're okay because the armor protects you from crit rolls. Otherwise, you're sunk. I think that's reasonable for a strike. Also keep in mind that these strikes are supposed to be high-yield, anti-Mech ordinance. In the books, they blew Mechs apart. Just be grateful that we broke from lore to make them game-friendly.


View PostAnjian, on 09 June 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:



War Thunder doesn't.

Air strikes, artillery strikes, are free but earned by performing certain acts in battle (a kill for instance).


Don't know what War Thunder is, but I know that Star Trek Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Ghost Recon: Phantoms, and Planetside 2 all use consumables. GR:P is notorious for its grenades while STO has combat pets and special, one-off abilites you can buy. All of them have a worse (in my opinion) consumable system than MWO. MWO's is the best I've seen to date.





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