88 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Kiiyor, on 07 June 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

I'd love it, but PGI in the past have been pretty adamant that they aren't touching it. Nope. Nuh-uh.

Oh dear god, that must have been a hilarious question...what did they answer....I now wonder.

[Alan Davion]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh dear god, that must have been a hilarious question...what did they answer....I now wonder.

[1453 R]

I recall reading somewhere that, sometime after the Project Phoenix TRO went active, Harmony Gold started Kerfuffle 2.0 and went back to fighting whoever-holds-the-TT-license-whenever-HG-feels-litigious over the Phoenix redesigns, claiming them to be in violation of HG's copyright on grounds of, as I recall, basically pure spite.

What it means is that while the other Reseens are generally considered perfectly acceptable (legally, anyways), the Macross designs are still on shaky enough ground as to be dangerous for companies like Piranha to mess with. Again, because Harmony Gold is basically the Devil. This, in fact, is why HG is often considered the Devil - they've gone back on the Phoenix deal and are fighting the BattleTech property holders/licensees on images they do not have any proper legal grounds to raise a stink over.

But they do because Macross. And then they don't even do anything worth doing with Macross. Which means that anything with a connection to Macross, however tenuous, gets HG's goat up and their demonic army of attack lawyers descends upon the offender like a Biblical plague, stripping flesh from bone until naught but broken fragments remains.

...I may be just a little upset at HG. Given that they're as bad as Disney with the horrible twisting and mutilation of copyright laws except without even a tenth of even the bad justification. It is in no way cool, and I consider it well beyond acceptable. Unfortunately there's nothing you, me, or Piranha can do about it.

[Alan Davion]

1453 R, on 09 June 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

I recall reading somewhere that, sometime after the Project Phoenix TRO went active, Harmony Gold started Kerfuffle 2.0 and went back to fighting whoever-holds-the-TT-license-whenever-HG-feels-litigious over the Phoenix redesigns, claiming them to be in violation of HG's copyright on grounds of, as I recall, basically pure spite.

What it means is that while the other Reseens are generally considered perfectly acceptable (legally, anyways), the Macross designs are still on shaky enough ground as to be dangerous for companies like Piranha to mess with. Again, because Harmony Gold is basically the Devil. This, in fact, is why HG is often considered the Devil - they've gone back on the Phoenix deal and are fighting the BattleTech property holders/licensees on images they do not have any proper legal grounds to raise a stink over.

But they do because Macross. And then they don't even do anything worth doing with Macross. Which means that anything with a connection to Macross, however tenuous, gets HG's goat up and their demonic army of attack lawyers descends upon the offender like a Biblical plague, stripping flesh from bone until naught but broken fragments remains.

...I may be just a little upset at HG. Given that they're as bad as Disney with the horrible twisting and mutilation of copyright laws except without even a tenth of even the bad justification. It is in no way cool, and I consider it well beyond acceptable. Unfortunately there's nothing you, me, or Piranha can do about it.

Yeah I remember reading about that.

Oh for crying out loud, what was their argument? Something-Evolution-Something... I think it mostly applied to the Crusader because out of all the designs, it was the one that still resembled its original design the most out of all the others.

1453 R, on 09 June 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

And then they don't even do anything worth doing with Macross.

Actually you're wrong on this point. They've created their own tabletop wargame now. Robotech RPG Tactics. So all those designs are pretty much now firmly under their thumb again.

But, I can pretty much guarantee you that a lot of people will be using those pieces in BT/MW TT games, just to spite HG right back.

[Ovion]

Alan Davion, on 09 June 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Actually you're wrong on this point. They've created their own tabletop wargame now. Robotech RPG Tactics. So all those designs are pretty much now firmly under their thumb again.

But, I can pretty much guarantee you that a lot of people will be using those pieces in BT/MW TT games, just to spite HG right back.

Nope.

That's Palladium, who managed to negotiate with Harmony Gold to be able to do it, not Harmony Gold doing anything with the IP themselves anyway.

Edited by Ovion, 09 June 2015 - 04:16 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alan Davion, on 09 June 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Yeah I remember reading about that.

Oh for crying out loud, what was their argument? Something-Evolution-Something... I think it mostly applied to the Crusader because out of all the designs, it was the one that still resembled its original design the most out of all the others.



Actually you're wrong on this point. They've created their own tabletop wargame now. Robotech RPG Tactics. So all those designs are pretty much now firmly under their thumb again.

But, I can pretty much guarantee you that a lot of people will be using those pieces in BT/MW TT games, just to spite HG right back.

Which literally, people only buy to get tabletop variations of the original mechs we want in battletech.

Trust me when I saw, very very few people ACTUALLY play the tabletop macross game. Most people simply eat up the mini's for Battletech uses anyway. Before the tactics RPG thing, Harmony Gold LITERALLY just sat on the Macross IP, releasing the occasional collectable for people to consume, but that was IT.

[Gryphorim]

Flash Frame, on 09 June 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Which literally, people only buy to get tabletop variations of the original mechs we want in battletech.

Problem is, this means people are paying HG for access to these minis, one way or another. IMHO, people need to be boycotting the Robotech minis, so the venture will go bankrupt and HG ditch their claims on the art. /Idealist

[Alan Davion]

Gryphorim, on 09 June 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

Problem is, this means people are paying HG for access to these minis, one way or another. IMHO, people need to be boycotting the Robotech minis, so the venture will go bankrupt and HG ditch their claims on the art. /Idealist

Given the way HG had been sitting on the Robotech franchise for three decades since the original release, until the release of the TT game, I very seriously doubt that they will ever let it go.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alan Davion, on 09 June 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Given the way HG had been sitting on the Robotech franchise for three decades since the original release, until the release of the TT game, I very seriously doubt that they will ever let it go.

Pretty much this.

HG doesn't care, they are a real estate firm first and formost, which means they have a metric TON of cash to sit on this IP with.

[Zeusus]

1453 R, on 09 June 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

But they do because Macross. And then they don't even do anything worth doing with Macross. Which means that anything with a connection to Macross, however tenuous, gets HG's goat up and their demonic army of attack lawyers descends upon the offender like a Biblical plague, stripping flesh from bone until naught but broken fragments remains.

My understanding is Macross won't have anything to do with them actually, and just can't be bothered to sue HG. So HG doesn't do anything with Macross as they can't. Sadly because of Robotech they have enough claim to the unseen to cause a stink PGI can't afford, and larger companies don't feel like dealing with.

[Anjian]

cdlord, on 09 June 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

You mean like this?

I have that in my collection. Its a Warhammer that is a Unique, which in the Dark Age sets, is roughly the equivalent to a Hero mech in MWO. The Uniques are made in more limited numbers than the regular ones. This one looks like a Liao.

[TheArisen]

Alan Davion, on 07 June 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

I knew someone would eventually bring up this topic again. I just didn't think it would be this soon.

Thank you BigBenn for proving the theory I posted in some of the recent "Project Phoenix" threads to be true.

Just a couple weeks ago PGI asked if they could re-sell the Locust, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, Griffen and Wolverine again.

This sparked a rather vicious response from both sides of the community, and while I still believe that the poll should have been disregarded due to a large number of people saying they voted no purely out of spite, the nays won.

As far as the Warhammer and others. Those specific mechs are almost 'persona non grata' due to their use in the Robotech/Macross anime, which Harmony Gold tries to protect with a vengeance.

PGI has 3 options before them with regard to the Warhammer and others.

1. They can negotiate a deal with both HG and the movie studio currently working on a supposed Robotech live action movie, which would likely require someone from HG to supervise the art process.

2. They can just go ahead and make the Warhammer and others, and hope they survive the inevitable fallout from HG.

or 3. They can do absolutely nothing.

I, and many others, believe at this point that number 3 is the most likely answer at this point, given the collective outcry over the attempt to bring back the first wave of Phoenix mechs.

Ask yourself this, if you were in control of PGI, and you saw the fallout over the attempt to bring back the first run of Phoenix mechs, would you then, in all honesty, try to bring in a 2nd wave of the Phoenix mechs with the level of forum fallout seen over the first wave looming over your head?

You forgot option 4! They could introduce mechs that are similar but different. For example, PGI could bring in the Hammerhands as a Warhammer stand in.

[Anjian]

Should note that the Reseens are with Topps, which owns the right to the tabletop BT franchise as well as figures related to it. The Reseens came out in the MW Dark Age and Age of Destruction sets, by Wizkids and owned by Topps. Topps is now under an investment company owned by Michael Eisner. There are some heavyweights there that HG doesn't want to step their toes.

If PGI wants to use the Dark Age Reseen designs as a basis, they might need to talk to Topps.

TheArisen, on 09 June 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

You forgot option 4! They could introduce mechs that are similar but different. For example, PGI could bring in the Hammerhands as a Warhammer stand in.

Can still be subjected to a look and feel lawsuit like Apple suing Samsung for the "square corners".

[CoolLew]

Man I would love to see the Warhammer!

[Anjian]

You know, if you take the Unseen, make somewhat similar designs and call them different names, they will likely pass on the game.

But if you make dissimilar designs, and call them by the Unseen names, the lawyers will still fall upon you.

[SilentSooYun]

I'm reasonably certain Alex has given PGI a full spread of Macross redesigns ages ago, BUT...

As soon as they're announced, they will undergo microscopic scrutiny by the HG legal team, so whether or not they're similar or dissimilar, there's going to be a legal cost associated with their release.

And yeah, the Phoenix Mechs have nominally passed muster, but popular opinion is that most of them kinda suck, with the "Cobra Commander Hawk", "Anorexiahammer", and "Popeye the Crusader Mech", to name a few. Opinions vary, of course, but that brings up the second problem: in addition to the legal battle of "like or not like", they would have to deal with a passionate yet intensely divided community on how far they can alter the Macross Mechs and still find them acceptable incarnations.

Personally, I'm of the opinion they should release their initial treatment to public scrutiny with the understanding that these designs will most likely change. Yes, there will be a few loudmouths that will accept nothing less than exact translations, but I like to think most of us are at least smart enough to accept that change is inevitable if we want these Mechs. If we don't like them, all they've spent is a bit of Alex's time. If they come up with something we do like, they're comfortably in bank, because a Macross package will sell like UrbanMechs.

[reign]

SilentSooYun, on 11 June 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

I'm reasonably certain Alex has given PGI a full spread of Macross redesigns ages ago, BUT...

As soon as they're announced, they will undergo microscopic scrutiny by the HG legal team, so whether or not they're similar or dissimilar, there's going to be a legal cost associated with their release.

And yeah, the Phoenix Mechs have nominally passed muster, but popular opinion is that most of them kinda suck, with the "Cobra Commander Hawk", "Anorexiahammer", and "Popeye the Crusader Mech", to name a few. Opinions vary, of course, but that brings up the second problem: in addition to the legal battle of "like or not like", they would have to deal with a passionate yet intensely divided community on how far they can alter the Macross Mechs and still find them acceptable incarnations.

Personally, I'm of the opinion they should release their initial treatment to public scrutiny with the understanding that these designs will most likely change. Yes, there will be a few loudmouths that will accept nothing less than exact translations, but I like to think most of us are at least smart enough to accept that change is inevitable if we want these Mechs. If we don't like them, all they've spent is a bit of Alex's time. If they come up with something we do like, they're comfortably in bank, because a Macross package will sell like UrbanMechs.

I really like the following redesigns from them though
Longbow - this thing is sweet


Long bow Primitive



Wasp Primitive



Warhammer "Litch"



I have all but the "Litch" figurine.. Probably will pick one up at Gencon though

Edited by reign, 11 June 2015 - 04:29 AM.

[Jetfire]

I need a PhoenixHawk so very badly.

[CDLord HHGD]

I prefer the primitive Longbow.....

[Juodas Varnas]

reign, on 11 June 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

Warhammer "Litch"



I have all but the "Litch" figurine.. Probably will pick one up at Gencon though

I think it's spelled "Lich", like the Undead Sorcerers in many fantasy games/stories.

But yeah, it'd love the Reseens, but PGI probably doesn't want to risk it.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 11 June 2015 - 04:46 AM.