133 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

Honestly, if I can not have to lead the target by any appreciable amount at and below 350 meters, I don't care about the specifics. The AC/2 is not effective on its own even if lightened unless you can bring 4+, and needs lasers to complement it. As such, they should sync rather nicely with those lasers around whatever their forté range is. If LAC/2 can't sync with lasers and Machine Guns at close-medium range, there's very little point in using it at all on something like the Arrow, which is precisely the type of 'Mech to which Light AC/2 provide the largest boost in utility.

I think I pretty much agree with that, I just don't think it would be very fair if the LAC2 still had extremely high projectile speed (as opposed to just high projectile speed) despite being lighter and meant for shorter ranges, and I don't think that something like a 1500 m/s projectile speed would make it impractical to use at ~350m ranges.

[YueFei]

Make weapon impact impulse real, not just cosmetic shake. Make it actually shove a mech's torso and feet around, and don't auto-correct back to the original point of aim, leave the reticule where it ends up after being hit, leaving it up to the victim to re-adjust their aim point.

In Mechwarrior 4 the weapon impacts actually shoved your point-of-aim off. One of the sweetest things to see was an enemy triggering every weapon he had into the dirt because you smacked him just a split second before he pulled the trigger.

AC2 is a long-range gun, it can't trade with big-alpha long-range guns unless it can actually rattle them enough that accurate return fire is near impossible. If the AC2 user gets the first hit in, he should be able to juggle a target at long range so badly that the victim can't return fire accurately with direct-fire weapons and must seek cover.

Instead of the current situation where the dude with Gauss/PPC/LLs gets hit first in the face by AC2's, laughs at it, calmly aims and drops a big alpha strike on the AC2 user, and then twists/turns and steps back into cover.

[Pjwned]

YueFei, on 22 June 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

Make weapon impact impulse real, not just cosmetic shake. Make it actually shove a mech's torso and feet around, and don't auto-correct back to the original point of aim, leave the reticule where it ends up after being hit, leaving it up to the victim to re-adjust their aim point.

In Mechwarrior 4 the weapon impacts actually shoved your point-of-aim off. One of the sweetest things to see was an enemy triggering every weapon he had into the dirt because you smacked him just a split second before he pulled the trigger.

AC2 is a long-range gun, it can't trade with big-alpha long-range guns unless it can actually rattle them enough that accurate return fire is near impossible. If the AC2 user gets the first hit in, he should be able to juggle a target at long range so badly that the victim can't return fire accurately with direct-fire weapons and must seek cover.

Instead of the current situation where the dude with Gauss/PPC/LLs gets hit first in the face by AC2's, laughs at it, calmly aims and drops a big alpha strike on the AC2 user, and then twists/turns and steps back into cover.

1. I think that's a stupid idea because being able to "juggle" somebody from ~800m away is too good since you're already at long range and much less susceptible to return fire in the first place; if you get hit by bigger long range weapons then whining that the smaller long range weapon should be able to essentially stunlock a mech is not the answer.

2. If that wouldn't herald the return of ghost heat on AC2 then nothing would.

3. What about other weapons? If only the AC2 were capable of disorienting a mech so badly then the game would turn into an AC2 simulator.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 June 2015 - 01:57 AM.

[Destoroyah]

yeah the heat is the biggest thing holding the AC2 back. It generates the same heat as a ac5 so it generates heat twice as fast as a AC5 and has a slower DPS to a AC5 to boot. If the heat was reduced to .5 or .4 the weapon would be so much better as you can layer in other sources of damage without overheating yourself insanely fast. A slight velocity buff would also be a nice addition as it's the lightest slug in the AC family so leading isn't as necessary for a AC2 as it is with other ACs and would help allow it to take advantage of it's longer reach better.

[YueFei]

Pjwned, on 22 June 2015 - 09:12 PM, said:

1. I think that's a stupid idea because being able to "juggle" somebody from ~800m away is too good because you're already at long range and much less susceptible to return fire in the first place; if you get hit by bigger long range weapons then whining that the smaller long range weapon should be able to essentially stunlock a mech is not the answer.
2. If that wouldn't herald the return of ghost on AC2 then nothing would.
3. What about other weapons? If only the AC2 were capable of disorienting a mech so badly then the game would turn into an AC2 simulator.

People can take cover if they're being shot at. If the Gauss/LL/PPC user gets the first shot, the AC2 user still comes out worse in that trade, because he probably takes it on the chin first before peppering the other guy all over his mech.

If someone's butt is hanging in the wind out in the open, and the AC2 user pops him first, the DPS-oriented weapon should have the advantage.

No need for ghost heat on AC2, it'd be working as intended: a long-range suppression weapon. Currently it cannot suppress against other long range weapons precisely because it doesn't rattle the target, so even if the AC2 user gets the first shot, if he continues firing to try to press his advantage he'll catch a big return shot on the chin.

Lasers could be set to have no impulse on target, as they currently are. Tune impulse on other weapons as an extra dimension to balance with.

The AC2 doesn't have to deliver a massive impulse. A small deviation induced in the target's aimpoint would be enough to prevent accurate return fire at long range. Brawlers and mid-range fighters would not be neutralized by AC2 fire, because they'd be closer and wouldn't need the precision.

Edited by YueFei, 22 June 2015 - 09:27 PM.

[Pjwned]

YueFei, on 22 June 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

People can take cover if they're being shot at. If the Gauss/LL/PPC user gets the first shot, the AC2 user still comes out worse in that trade, because he probably takes it on the chin first before peppering the other guy all over his mech.

If someone's butt is hanging in the wind out in the open, and the AC2 user pops him first, the DPS-oriented weapon should have the advantage.

So it's fine if you catch somebody with their "butt hanging in the wind out in the open" but it's not fine the other way around because you have "[a] dps-oriented weapon" and who cares about things like tonnage and heat disparity and other factors with those bigger weapons.

This is just stupid.

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No need for ghost heat on AC2, it'd be working as intended: a long-range suppression weapon. Currently it cannot suppress against other long range weapons precisely because it doesn't rattle the target, so even if the AC2 user gets the first shot, if he continues firing to try to press his advantage he'll catch a big return shot on the chin.

The answer is to adjust your tactics against enemy mechs equipped with more powerful long range weapons

"I brought a knife to a gun fight and I lost, please buff the knife so that the gun is rendered useless;" this is what you sound like.

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Lasers could be set to have no impulse on target, as they currently are. Tune impulse on other weapons as an extra dimension to balance with.

This is such a vague answer that it makes me think you didn't consider in the least the impact this sort of change would have on the game.

Quote

The AC2 doesn't have to deliver a massive impulse. A small deviation induced in the target's aimpoint would be enough to prevent accurate return fire at long range. Brawlers and mid-range fighters would not be neutralized by AC2 fire, because they'd be closer and wouldn't need the precision.

It seemed like you wanted a more exaggerated effect with this quote:

Quote

If the AC2 user gets the first hit in, he should be able to juggle a target at long range so badly that the victim can't return fire accurately with direct-fire weapons and must seek cover.

But even then it's still dumb because why should you be able to render a mech unable to return fire just because you hit them first? If you're sitting there exposed while pelting the enemy with shots, you should expect to take return fire (if their weapons are capable) just like with every other damn weapon in the game.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 June 2015 - 01:53 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

even with out the Heat being cut in half,
i think -28% cooldown, 0.72 to 0.52, would greatly help,

[Y E O N N E]

It would help on larger 'Mechs that could bring heat-sinks to cool them, but lower heat is essential for smaller 'Mechs like the Blackjack.

[Water Bear]

well....yes. I ran...certain AC/2 builds before the nerf to their ROF and routinely breached 1000 match damage.

[FupDup]

I'm not able to understand the "heat boggeyman" that people keep talking about, because according to Smurfys you can fire 2 AC/2 for 2 minutes and 5 seconds uninterrupted without overheating (if you have 10 Trudubs).

AC/2 Heat Tester

If you add a 3rd AC/2, you can fire them full auto for 32 seconds before you overheat, using just the 10 default DHS in your engine.

The fatal flaw of the AC/2 isn't heat, the fatal flaw is not being able to inflict any appreciable level of damage relative to the amount of tonnage you have to invest in the damn thing. If you made the AC/2 generate outright zero heat, it would still be crappy.

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 23 June 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not able to understand the "heat boggeyman" that people keep talking about, because according to Smurfys you can fire 2 AC/2 for 2 minutes and 5 seconds uninterrupted without overheating (if you have 10 Trudubs).

AC/2 Heat Tester

If you add a 3rd AC/2, you can fire them full auto for 32 seconds before you overheat, using just the 10 default DHS in your engine.

The fatal flaw of the AC/2 isn't heat, the fatal flaw is not being able to inflict any appreciable level of damage relative to the amount of tonnage you have to invest in the damn thing. If you made the AC/2 generate outright zero heat, it would still be crappy.

remember with my suggestion you would be firing 28% faster(0.52(3.84DPS),
with Elite(5%) & CD Module(12%) you would be firing 45% faster(0.43(4.65DPS),
with 2 AC2s your looking at -28% on that 2 minutes, so a minute and a half,
and 2 AC2s Elite'd/mod'd, -45% on that 2 minutes, so a minute 8 seconds,

so how would it be too hot when it takes you a min to over heat?
also if you have enough Tonnage for 3 why not AC5/AC10?

[Graugger]

The AC/2 used to have a cooldown of .52 and the gauss / ppc spammers qq'd about not being able to step out and zap 2 salvo kill mechs cause they couldn't see what they were shooting at and that the AC/2 was OP.

Basically the metaphobes won't allow any other weapon to be buffed to a level that can effectively piss them off at an equal distance. That's also why they nerfed the range by 30% leaving the gauss the only weapon with a range on par with the ER PPC.

Wonder why the weapon diversity isn't that great -.-

I'm truely surprised the AC/2 is the ONLY AC that hasn't had a velocity nerf to the point of needing to be renamed a auto sling.

Of course something I've noticed is that the paper doll only flashes EVERY OTHER SHOT -.- so I'm almost guessing only 50% of the hits are registering (this was the case in testing grounds as well)

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 23 June 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not able to understand the "heat boggeyman" that people keep talking about, because according to Smurfys you can fire 2 AC/2 for 2 minutes and 5 seconds uninterrupted without overheating (if you have 10 Trudubs).

AC/2 Heat Tester

If you add a 3rd AC/2, you can fire them full auto for 32 seconds before you overheat, using just the 10 default DHS in your engine.

The fatal flaw of the AC/2 isn't heat, the fatal flaw is not being able to inflict any appreciable level of damage relative to the amount of tonnage you have to invest in the damn thing. If you made the AC/2 generate outright zero heat, it would still be crappy.

AC/2 do not play nice with lasers. Since I can only bring two on my Blackjack and they don't do a lot of damage at once, I need them to play nice with lasers. They do okay, heat-wise, on the BJ-1DC with six small lasers but are miserably hot on the Arrow with only three mediums and with what should actually be a fairly competent brawler build with 4x MG thrown in. Give me light AC/2 and that allows me to bring three tons of AC/2 ammo and 2 tons of MG ammo with a decently quick STD 220, but it doesn't solve the heat problem. XL or further dropping engine sizes are unreasonable solutions; the Arrow is a ballistic 'Mech. It needs options besides MG or XL AC/20 pop-boomers.

Edit: word duplication.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 23 June 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 June 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

AC/2 do not play nice with lasers. Since I can only bring two on my Blackjack and they don't do a lot of damage at once, I need them to play nice with lasers. They do okay, heat-wise, on the BJ-1DC with six small lasers but are miserably hot on the Arrow with only three mediums and with what should actually be a fairly competent brawler build with 4x MG thrown in. Give me light AC/2 and that allows me to bring three tons of AC/2 ammo and 2 tons of MG ammo with a decently quick STD 220, but it doesn't solve the heat problem. XL or further dropping engine sizes are unreasonable solutions; the Arrow is a ballistic 'Mech. It needs options besides MG or XL AC/20 pop-boomers.

Edit: word duplication.

When we mix in lasers, we can't really blame the heat on the AC/2 anymore.

I'd have fun with the AC/2, it's basically what the original AC/2 should've been since 3025. It has about the same level of reward/output as it older cousin, but with a massively lower opportunity cost...which was the original problem to begin with (AC/2 is high risk + low reward, LAC/2 is medium/low risk + low reward).

Also Magshots, because Magshots.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 09 June 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

I did propose that the AC5 heat to be increased to 1.5, on top of AC2 heat buff, so all ACs have the same DPH, but the AC5 lovers didn't like the idea. Thanks to PGI, the word "normalize" seems to be a taboo to the bigoted mass in these forums. Nevermind that the last normalizing of the Pulse Lasers turned out to be great.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of increasing AC5 heat (well, the UAC5 would have to be suffering in the same manner), but I have seen the dakka Dragons overheat on a hot map... so it might be something worth looking into.

For the AC2, the heat needs to be halved AND it's DPS needs to be restored to the times before the Paulconomist nerfed it to death... I mean... "normalized" it.

FupDup, on 23 June 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not able to understand the "heat boggeyman" that people keep talking about, because according to Smurfys you can fire 2 AC/2 for 2 minutes and 5 seconds uninterrupted without overheating (if you have 10 Trudubs).

AC/2 Heat Tester

If you add a 3rd AC/2, you can fire them full auto for 32 seconds before you overheat, using just the 10 default DHS in your engine.

The fatal flaw of the AC/2 isn't heat, the fatal flaw is not being able to inflict any appreciable level of damage relative to the amount of tonnage you have to invest in the damn thing. If you made the AC/2 generate outright zero heat, it would still be crappy.

You're making the mistake of using the current AC2's data.. instead of what it was before ghost heat was added to the AC2. That version of the AC2 was at least worth boating 4 to 5 of them (some people went crazy with 6, but that's another matter).

Now, it's just a terrible poke thing.

[Pjwned]

FupDup, on 23 June 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not able to understand the "heat boggeyman" that people keep talking about, because according to Smurfys you can fire 2 AC/2 for 2 minutes and 5 seconds uninterrupted without overheating (if you have 10 Trudubs).

AC/2 Heat Tester

If you add a 3rd AC/2, you can fire them full auto for 32 seconds before you overheat, using just the 10 default DHS in your engine.

The fatal flaw of the AC/2 isn't heat, the fatal flaw is not being able to inflict any appreciable level of damage relative to the amount of tonnage you have to invest in the damn thing. If you made the AC/2 generate outright zero heat, it would still be crappy.

I think the problem is that without a lightweight version of the AC2, it's not very desirable in a lot of builds and its extra long range is pretty much wasted. The thing is, by "a lot of" builds I don't mean "all" builds either because it makes for a pretty nice long range pea shooter as I've found trying to grind out some Blackjacks very recently, and one of my first few matches with my BJ-1 I got 5 kills and 650+ damage without even full basics let alone full elites, so I have a new appreciation for the AC2 as a sniper weapon along with some quirks to make it not as terrible.

The AC2 would be used considerably more if the Light AC2 was an option for players who really do not need such long range (which means a lot of players) on such a weapon yet would still like a smaller ballistic weapon that isn't only 120m range, and of course if the heat generation was considerably lower as well.

Edited by Pjwned, 24 June 2015 - 04:02 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 23 June 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

When we mix in lasers, we can't really blame the heat on the AC/2 anymore.

We can when all of the other ACs play nice with lasers!

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I'd have fun with the AC/2, it's basically what the original AC/2 should've been since 3025. It has about the same level of reward/output as it older cousin, but with a massively lower opportunity cost...which was the original problem to begin with (AC/2 is high risk + low reward, LAC/2 is medium/low risk + low reward).

Also Magshots, because Magshots.

Magshots and LAC/2 would be awesome, but LAC/2 still need a heat reduction. The problems with my Arrow and AC/2 are both heat and weight. Weight denies me speed and ammo, forget even trying to figure heat into the equation. The Blackjack is also already inherently squishy.

I do not want Magshots on the Blackjack, that's a different role and style than what I'm interested in. I want AC/2.

[Y E O N N E]

Edit: I hate it when I accidentally make a double post, especially a redundant one.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 23 June 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 June 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

Edit: I hate it when I accidentally make a double post, especially a redundant one.

its ok, we all do it sometimes computer Error or human Error,

still though 0.52 with 3.8DPS(with 2 AC2s) thats roughly 8 damage a sec for 39 seconds,
which could be amazing, better damage but at Full Face Time, i think it would reinvent the Weapon,

Why? decreasing heat is ok but really who stands out in the open for 39 seconds,
faster fire but the same heat will allow you to pop out hose down an Enemy then hide for cooling,
also at 3.8DPS(or 4.6DPS(Elite'd/Modded) its just shy of the 5DPS the AC20 has,
so your trading Shoot&Hide(AC20) with FullFaceTime(AC2), so a new role,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 24 June 2015 - 07:46 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

You play the Arrow at all? Because I certainly engage a target face-to-face for 39 seconds.

Assuming he doesn't get rescued, it usually turns out okay.

If I do it with my STD200 AC/2 build, it always runs slightly too hot to really finish a target, even at the reduced rate of fire. If you increase the rate of fire without reducing the heat, the 'Mech won't even get off the same number of synchronized laser blasts, possibly resulting in a loss of damage dealt despite an increased maximum damage rate on paper. It'll be overly toasty.

The Arrow should make an excellent close-range, constant damage 'Mech. That's its calling. Like all Blackjacks, It has excellent speed and payload for the percentage of its mass spent on a standard engine, its cooling is typically just enough to run most builds adequately, and it has some pretty decent hit-boxes. But, the Arrow has a lot of ballistic hardpoints. If you dedicate them all to MGs, it's always undergunned. Best DPS you can get without a huge hit in durability or speed is with 2x MPL, 1x LPL, and 6x MG on a STD 225 engine. That puts you up at around 12. XL can get you to 14, but you are no longer durable. Small engine can do the same, but you lose out on ammo and speed. Twin AC/2 can get you past 13, but you are hot and short on ammo. Twin LAC/2 with a general heat reduction on 2-class ACs would fix the problem.

87.1 kph, 2x LAC/2 with 225 rounds, 4x MG with 4000 rounds, 3x Medium Laser, 286 points of armor. 13-15 DPS for ~30 seconds. That would be competitive with the Shadowcat in terms of firepower, a good place to be.