98 replies to this topic

[Triskelion]

Gryphorim, on 09 June 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

True, but in TT the RAC is a more advanced AC that can spool up to fire at up to 6 times the RoF of a standard AC.
Imagine firing 3 UACs chained to fire each of the 3 guns, then fire their second round, all perfectly synchronised into a stream of continuous death.
Downside: vastly increased jam chance.

I'm hoping that when they actually get around to RACs, they ditch the jamming entirely and simply work with an overheat mechanic. Those things were utterly frustrating to use in older MW games and there really isn't any reason to gimp them.

Plus it'd be nice to, you know, have different mechanics. I'd save the spool up/overheat for RACs and work with a different system for UACs, like widening COF for rapidly spammed shots (which I realize is something a lot of people are opposed to, but it's a hell of a lot less frustrating than having something jam).

[TheCharlatan]

Yes please!

Would love to be able to have control other the jam. It would make UACs more balanced and skill based.
As they are, sometimes they jam right away, or never seem to jam, and both feel unbalanced (you either suck or own faces).

[Gattsus]

LordNothing, on 09 June 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

balance based on optimal usage profile. slow tapping to avoid jams but underutilized the gun's damage potential limiting you to non ultra dps, while spamming will send your jam chance so high that every shot jams, thus lowering your dps. somewhere in between the two there needs to be a happy medium where dps reaches its peak. its likely at double or tripple tap depending on class.

for that to work the gun has to ramp up on a non linear curve. the curve may be more or less agressive depending on technology and class. lets also assume that every shot fired requires an equal length of time to reduce the chance to zero. were assuming this curve is for a uac5.

fire count, jam chance, damage adjusted for jam
shot/burst 1: 0% 5
shot/burst 2: 4% 9.6
shot/burst 3: 11% 13.35
shot/burst 4: 33% 13.2
shot/burst 5: 99% 0.25

were taking the damage the burst should cause, and multiplying it by (100-jamchance)/100. this is true so long as the ratio between fire time and cd time is 1:1. you might have a shorter or longer cooldown vs refire rate, or you might even have a jam time penalty curve on top of this to penalize spammers with additional jam time. if you do that you might have to factor in cycle time to get a more fair result.

clearly this curve favors 3 round bursts. so you balence according to that. you could balence it on some median between optimal (3 shot) and safe (1 shot), but i have a feeling that would result in blatant exploitation by more elite players and the resultant nerfs that make it worse for everyone else. though it would be nice to see more acs in cw.

seems reasonable

[LordKnightFandragon]

Khobai, on 09 June 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

UACs should have a spool up time and a jam bar instead of random jam chance

the purpose of the spool up time would be to prevent them from being outright better than regular ACs.

They burst and jam, they are already worse then regular ACs.

[Sjorpha]

Jabilac, on 09 June 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

It would be nice to see each double tap increase the jam chance instead of having a set jam chance. Like 2% as a base then double it each time the second shot is utilized within a set timer. So 2% -> 4% -> 8% -> 16% ect. Numbers are just examples

I like this suggestion better, there needs to be a chance of random jamming IMO, but having it be small and increase with each tap sounds great.

I'm also ok with the current mechanic to be honest, they are great powerful weapons and fun to use.

[Tahribator]

We'll have a MASC bar too. Introduce all the bars!

[LordBraxton]

No, because UACs would lose their main disadvantage; face time. Not knowing when your guns will stop firing is the only reason dakka whales, crabs, and the like, cannot distribute damage well. Imagine a dakka whale that can alpha you 3 times, twist away to recharge like a PPFLD mech, and then alpha you again 3 times with no cannons jammed. Take the risk out and the UAC becomes another peek and poke weapon that can be optimized to never jam and trade DPS bursts for longer cooldowns at will. It might make them far too strong, and it certainly would make them lose their unique flavor. (that random chance to jam right away is a huge psychological factor, as well as the rush you get from an 'unending' barrage.)

Edited by LordBraxton, 10 June 2015 - 03:36 AM.

[LordNothing]

you could adjust the curve so that jam chances are applied earlier on in the volley. put the 'bend' around shot 2. you can opt for the safe single shot, in which case you are probibly better off packing a regular ac, you can double tap for optimal dps vs jam. or you can tripple and quad tap to gamble for additional dps.

i dont think a bar is a good idea, that just makes the weapon too easy to use. if you are kept unaware of the current jam chance then that adds to the skill needed to use the weapon. you must keep time to make sure you are giving the gun time to reduce its jam chance, which translates to face time. poke and spam means you are spending way too much time waiting for your guns to unjam.

[Joseph Mallan]

No. If we always know when a weapon will jam we would prevent it before it happens. We should NEVER know that.

[EvilCow]

The jam bar worked great in MWLL.

This random approach frankly sucks.

[LordBraxton]

The random approach seems to divide the community on the UACs, for the longest time a lot of people hated UAC5s and never used them, even when they were meta on the Ilya back in the day. A 'jam-bar' (sounds like a tasty snack) is easy to gauge and therefore a preperatory system, making it a plan-peek-poke-hide\twist just like everyother weapon. Random jam chance makes UACs a rewarding reactionary weapon. Just adapt, set yourself up in a position where you can get some clear shots but be on the way to cover so you can dip when you jam.

Edited by LordBraxton, 10 June 2015 - 04:15 AM.

[Richard Hazen]

I support the OPs suggestion.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

LordBraxton, on 10 June 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

No, because UACs would lose their main disadvantage; face time. Not knowing when your guns will stop firing is the only reason dakka whales, crabs, and the like, cannot distribute damage well. Imagine a dakka whale that can alpha you 3 times, twist away to recharge like a PPFLD mech, and then alpha you again 3 times with no cannons jammed. Take the risk out and the UAC becomes another peek and poke weapon that can be optimized to never jam and trade DPS bursts for longer cooldowns at will. It might make them far too strong, and it certainly would make them lose their unique flavor. (that random chance to jam right away is a huge psychological factor, as well as the rush you get from an 'unending' barrage.)

Well if you're going to go this route of reasoning, then why not just have random overheating too. Screw the heat bar everyone "abuses," make it similar to old school TT battletech heat effects table? That'd solve more than PPFLD, rite? Or is the heat bar acceptable in this game? Since I don't see dozens of threads about it, it must not be an issue, so why not get rid of the UAC jam chance roll to accommodate the current heat bar?

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 10 June 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Jam bar = better than dice roll any day.

[Lugh]

Burktross, on 09 June 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Yes, yes, yes! I like this! Like in the old Call of Duties! I recall the German Mg42 overheating from sustained fire.

However, I think the delay should be 4 seconds at a rate of 3, but keep an 8% chance of jamming on a shot.

The actual mathematical chance of jamming from the table top rules ( in 10 seconds turns) is 2.9%

The crap they have going on here is way too high of a jam chance. It should only be .29% per second. And should rarely and I MEAN RARELY ever happen.

If I were to propose a weapon TODAY that jammed at the rate these UACs jam I would be OUT OF BUSINESS before the first one rolled off the line.

[CDLord HHGD]

A creep bar would be cool, though I imagine the thing will be pulsing like the base bar on an equalizer for the chance to jam it needs to have...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Ah, yes, lets remove the one thing that makes the uACs not straight up OP across the board, because it's not fun to have a non-OP weapon system!

There is a reason it jams, the chance of jam could use some work, but a bar that shows EXACTLY when it will jam removes the entire point of jams in the first place.

Why not just make ACs do double taps in that case, do away with uACs all together!

[CDLord HHGD]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 June 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Ah, yes, lets remove the one thing that makes the uACs not straight up OP across the board, because it's not fun to have a non-OP weapon system!

There is a reason it jams, the chance of jam could use some work, but a bar that shows EXACTLY when it will jam removes the entire point of jams in the first place.

Why not just make ACs do double taps in that case, do away with uACs all together!

That's technically the purpose of the UACs...... They replace standard ACs... Just because it can double tap, you don't have to...

[Lugh]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 June 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Ah, yes, lets remove the one thing that makes the uACs not straight up OP across the board, because it's not fun to have a non-OP weapon system!

There is a reason it jams, the chance of jam could use some work, but a bar that shows EXACTLY when it will jam removes the entire point of jams in the first place.

Why not just make ACs do double taps in that case, do away with uACs all together!

And any weapon that is limited by ammunition count can never ever be OP. Especially in CW. Especially when you give NO OPTION FOR RESUPPLY when in the engagement, yet today I can have a resupply drop done as requested IRL.

Now I may not be able to get to the ordinance dropped if I call for it in a derp location, but it will get dropped.

[LordBraxton]

00ohDstruct, on 10 June 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

Well if you're going to go this route of reasoning, then why not just have random overheating too. Screw the heat bar everyone "abuses," make it similar to old school TT battletech heat effects table? That'd solve more than PPFLD, rite? Or is the heat bar acceptable in this game? Since I don't see dozens of threads about it, it must not be an issue, so why not get rid of the UAC jam chance roll to accommodate the current heat bar?

ok... my point was that all the other weapons already use that system, so that's what made UACs unique... I like having a heatscale. I just don't want a sub-heatscale for UACs.