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Size Comparisons Redux

Balance BattleMechs

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#21 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 06:29 PM

View PostDomenoth, on 30 June 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Understood, but including 40 tonners rendered at the same distance as the lights would help with perspective. Sort of like including the tiny man in one of the corners.

It makes for an extremely long picture. That is part of the reason for splitting it up. I will still be doing the full picture just because it is interesting to see and easy to do, just saying there isn't a huge reason to compare between classes unless PGI is willing to adjust a whole class because there do exist gaps in size.

#22 Tennex

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 06:32 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 30 June 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

It makes for an extremely long picture. That is part of the reason for splitting it up. I will still be doing the full picture just because it is interesting to see and easy to do, just saying there isn't a huge reason to compare between classes unless PGI is willing to adjust a whole class because there do exist gaps in size.


Well it is easier to say hey look this medium mech is scaled like an assault mech if they are scaled together

#23 TyphonCh

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 06:37 PM

View PostTennex, on 30 June 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Wish they would put up that poll tho i'm very curious what people will vote


-Yoink-
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Close enough

#24 Tennex

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 06:43 PM

View PostTeam Chevy86, on 30 June 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:



Quickdraw is the winner. Can't say i'm suprised.

Do wish they would look over the kit fox and some of the miscaled mediums tho. Since the entire medium class is where scaling is the worst

#25 Hit the Deck

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 06:52 PM

View PostTennex, on 30 June 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Do you have a way to enclose the models and calculate volume to compare the mechs ?

I have an idea: 3D print them and then dip 'em in water. After you are done with the these junk don't throw them away but just send them to me. I'll cover the delivery cost.

:ph34r:

#26 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 07:16 PM

Updated with a view of all the mechs lined up.

#27 Hit the Deck

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 07:31 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 30 June 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

Updated with a view of all the mechs lined up.

Thanks a bunch!

#28 Kiiyor

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 07:40 PM

View PostTennex, on 30 June 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Do you have a way to enclose the models and calculate volume to compare the mechs ?


I was trying to do this using the silhouettes picture, but I might start again with these, which are magnificent. If you use the selection tool in Photoshop there's a selection volume option... somewhere. It's something you absolutely have to take into account when looking at the height of mechs.

I'm quite interested in torso volume - from both the front and sides. While the frontal cross-section to me is the most important, side hitboxes are still a contributing factor to performance.

Well done OP, these are fantastic.

#29 Tennex

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 07:49 PM

View PostKiiyor, on 30 June 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:


I was trying to do this using the silhouettes picture, but I might start again with these, which are magnificent. If you use the selection tool in Photoshop there's a selection volume option... somewhere. It's something you absolutely have to take into account when looking at the height of mechs.

I'm quite interested in torso volume - from both the front and sides. While the frontal cross-section to me is the most important, side hitboxes are still a contributing factor to performance.

Well done OP, these are fantastic.


The 2d area would be good too. But ideally a 3d model volume would be the best way to compare. I think theres a program somehwere that has an enclose function or something

#30 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 07:52 PM

View PostTennex, on 30 June 2015 - 07:49 PM, said:

I think theres a program somehwere that has an enclose function or something

The problem is there are multiple meshes embedded in it, that's why enclosing isn't an appropriate solution.

#31 Tennex

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 08:23 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 30 June 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

The problem is there are multiple meshes embedded in it, that's why enclosing isn't an appropriate solution.


I think Ghogiel was the one who did it before for the stalker and the catapult. But he hasn't been active in a few years

Ghogiel said:

Here are 2 mechs, that aren't the same weight class, but are whacky in size, that were assembled from the in game geometry (not the fat torso catapult model that is never used in game you see often).
Posted Image



These numbers should be fairly accurately measured. It's not completely 100% exact, as making the enclosed model in the space of 5mins instead of possible hours brings in a small inaccuracy of the surface, this is the level of inaccuracy >



Posted Image

#32 Wildstreak

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 08:29 PM

Sorry but your OP pics are inaccurate.
The Grasshopper is taller than a number of Heavies but you make it look to be similar height to a number of them.
The Awesome is wider than a number of Mechs like the Zeus yet here it doesn't look too bad.

Better off getting in game screenshots and doing the thing PGI does now during Mech releases, show one, morph it into another or at least next to each other. Example, I once did a screenshot comparison of Adder vs Panther, the Adder is not bad off, it looks a little worse due to the torso size. Kit Fox nor any other Light really needs work.

View PostQueek Head Taker, on 30 June 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

this is why we can't have nice things... cause people cant be happy with what they got. So instead of making new cool content maybe finish destructable crap lets resize mechs!

I know we have enough nice things, some older stuff still needs work. If that delays new stuff, then so be it. That is how many good online games do this, they fix things in game before giving you new content, keeps a majority of the playerbase happy.

View PostLORD TSARKON, on 30 June 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

Thank you for not mentioning my favorite Mech in the game that has the greatest benefit of being too small...

The Stalker...

The CAtapult is larger than the Stalker... a Mech that is 20 tons heavier (yes I understand Volume has nothing to do with Mass and Tonnage).

I think the minis were closer, Catapult had a smaller body and ears but long legs.Sorry but your OP pics are inaccurate.

Edited by Wildstreak, 30 June 2015 - 08:30 PM.


#33 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 08:42 PM

View PostWildstreak, on 30 June 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

Sorry but your OP pics are inaccurate.
The Grasshopper is taller than a number of Heavies but you make it look to be similar height to a number of them.
The Awesome is wider than a number of Mechs like the Zeus yet here it doesn't look too bad.

Did a simple search for Hopper comparisons threads back when it was released, my pics seem pretty accurate. Keep in mind, these are pulled directly from the game files and are without rigs so their stance may not be quite the same as in-game but still fairly close.
http://mwomercs.com/...ize-comparison/
Posted Image

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 30 June 2015 - 08:45 PM.


#34 SirLankyIII

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 09:02 PM

These would be mine, based on being too tall or too wide, or both

Centurion
Trebuchet
Nova
Catapult
Awesome

Honourable Mentions: Kitfox, Quickdraw, Blackjack, Vindicator

Edited by SirLankyIII, 30 June 2015 - 09:03 PM.


#35 Juodas Varnas

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 09:40 PM

The ones that really stick out like a sore thumb are definitely the Quickdraw, Centurion, Trebuchet and the Vindicator.

#36 kapusta11

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 09:50 PM

I can't see the difference, Catapult, Awesome, Orion, Quickdraw, Dragon, Kintaro and some others are still big, Ryoken appears to be smaller, wtf? Cauldron Born still too small. Highlander got bigger for some weird reason, like it's not bad enough already. It's times like this I think it's good that PGI don't read their forums.

Edited by kapusta11, 30 June 2015 - 09:56 PM.


#37 jay35

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:50 PM

View PostMitsuragi, on 30 June 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

My votes are... Kit Fox (L), Trebuchet (M), Quickdraw (H), Orion (H), Victor (A)


Why those... ?

Kit Fox: this mech is wider than other mechs and taller than a Jenner (which is 5 tons heavier and infinitely faster).

Trebuchet: as tall as a 55 ton mech and much taller than the hunchback (which is the same weight).

Quickdraw: Taller than similar weight mechs and very blocky for a highly-mobile archetype.

Orion: Taller than similar weight mechs and HUGE legs. This mech is easy to leg (seriously, legs are 2x as wide!).

Victor: Very wide and tall for a mech that relies on a highly-mobile archetype. This is a Quickdraw that ate too many pies.

This guy gets it.

#38 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 03:45 AM

If a few mech were going to get "shrunk" a bit, I'd pick...

1. Catapult. It is too big for a 65 tonner and the size of a Stalker. I'd make it's torso closer in size to the Ebon Jaguar.

2. Vindicator. Again, a bit large for a lighter Medium with limited hard points. Maybe shrink it toll it is as tall as s Black Jack.

3. Victor. Looking at that chart it just seems too big for what it can carry and the speed it can supposedly go. I'd bring it more in line with the Zeus.



P.s. Forgot the Grasshopper. It's too tall, let's shrink it a bit as well.

#39 Sjorpha

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:26 AM

While I agree that scaling could be much better and more consistent, I feel like a lot of the complaints look too much at height and front profile instead of considering the actual volume of the models. If a mech has a bulky side profile like the stalker or king crab it increases volume a lot and thus reduces height and front profile, which makes perfect sense. Same with things like thick legs etc, and on the other hand slim designs naturally gets very like the grasshopper. I'm not saying these scales are correct, but it might not always be as off as you think or in the way you think.

For example the grasshopper compared to the Cataphract, everyone is obsessed with the hopper being "too tall", but when I look at them from different angles it seems to me that the volume is pretty similar. The cataphract model might even have have more volume for all I know.

In my opinion the grasshopper isn't "too tall", that's just a unique thing about it, tall and slim, I like that. And even if they were to reduce the size of it I would prefer they made it slimmer instead of shorter. The problem is rather that it's not agile enough, which is the problem with tall mech in general in MWO, if it was more of a ballerina to drive the height would just feel like a cool feature, and it would actually be a good mech then.

I wish they would just base scaling on a fixed algorithm based on model volume, and assuming increasing density the lighter a mech is.

Assuming similar density for different weights would result in light mechs being a lot larger than they are now, and that wouldn't work very well in MWOs metagame so I think the lighter mechs need to stay relatively dense (small). It also makes sense realistically that smaller machines are more dense, because it is the way it usually is in the real world, a motorcycle is much denser than a car which is denser than a bus and so on.

The result would be a more consistent scaling where that largest difference would be high end mediums and low end heavies getting much smaller.

If you take the locust and the atlas as an example, I would guess that the locust model is at least 3x times as dense as the atlas right now. Since it costs 8x the weight to double the size of a real life 3d object, an equally dense atlas, since it weighs 5 times more and has a bulkier design, would only be 1.4x the height of a locust, or something like that... Which would clearly feel like a too small difference to most people, which is why the small mech need to be much more compact, but it should be done in a consistent way.

Edited by Sjorpha, 01 July 2015 - 04:35 AM.


#40 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:33 AM

Yea, the Cataphract is the goto comparison for trying to prove a heavy is too tall. The Cataphract I'd an odd shaped mech. Sort of humanoid, but with it's head planted in the center of the torso and chicken walker legs.

The combination of the chicken walker legs lowering the profile combined with "no head on it's shoulders" means the Cataphract always makes other heavies look tall.

Still, I do feel the Grasshopper is a bit tall. Maybe just shrink the leg's length a tiny...tiny bit.

I do agree volume is not taken into account as much as it should. That Catapult vs Stalker graphic above does show how "large" the Catapult is for a 65tonner, but I also think it demonstrates how small the Stalker really is. I want to shrink the Catapult's torso more in line with the Ebon Jaguar, but I also would like to see the Stalker grow in size as well.





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