318 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Since there's some heated discussion going on about the chart, I figured I should show the other ones. Tennex added the pink line, that's not my doing. He only showed one of my charts, the one that emphasis under-scaled mechs because he's particularly adamant about the Stalker being underscaled (even though it's not one of the worst overall offenders, imo)

Here is the same chart organised slightly differently, I much prefer this version:



Here is a similar chart that is only front profiles, no side profile incorporated:

---

To those saying it's just flat out "wrong", I remind that that it's at least empirical. It's obviously not the end-all metric for evaluating mech scale nor is it absolutely accurate/precise, but it's definitely interesting to look at.

[Lily from animove]

Eldagore, on 13 July 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with the Adder, never was, you fools all play it wrong and then cry.

Lol this, Adder is my highest single game damage mech so far in CW, its a great mech, given people know how to play it, but too many players stick wiht their habits and try to slap them on every mech instead of trying to find every mechs own unique playstyle. With PPC's in the Torsi, Adder is th king hillpeaking mech, and on Grim portico, LOL there are some areas where you can shoot below the crystals and hit opps before they notice you and disappear.

The adder is perfect as it is, especially after it got mobility quirks

Eldagore, on 13 July 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Making the CT shed dmg to the ST like a stalker means it would not support the XL engine that is part of 100% of every loadout for it ever since beta(except the short stint when we put AC40 in it because we didnt have Jagers yet). So, no, it isn't so easy as "copy the Stalker" because "lolXLstalker" means it would be "lolXLcatapult" which also means it loses about ten tons of weapon space to move at the same speed it does now.

And this is why IS failed at Tukayyid, as long as you slap XL's everywhere, much failing, a damn non XL mech that has hitboxes to spread damage is the worst pain for a clanner you can imagine, because he has to destroy 3 sidetorsi. which is HP wise very annoying especially with those hot Energyboats most clanners use. And ammo dependen weapons on CW is even more a pain if you have STD Engines to destroy. I would prefer shooting at a clan-XL-stalker, than a STD stalker, because even with a clan XL the stalker would die faster (2 torsi lost = dead).

But as long as you IS players do not understand this, you will always cry. So better go and ask those in your IS, that know how to play your mechs, because the IS has very good pilots, unfortunately not enough for CW to turn the table.

Nathan K, on 13 July 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Proof that the only "rescaling" the Cat needs is a slimmer CT hit box. (STOP VOTING FOR IT!)

fixed version

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 July 2015 - 01:33 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Lily from animove, on 14 July 2015 - 01:29 AM, said:

-snip-

I love when clanners think that IS STD engines are somehow better than Clan XL engines.
I can never understand are they really that stupid or just really good at pretending to be that stupid.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 14 July 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Juodas Varnas, on 14 July 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

I love when clanners think that IS STD engines are somehow better than Clan XL engines.
I can never understand are they really that stupid or just really good at pretending to be that stupid.

So how it comes that there are very potent players doing it right with STD engines? How about you look at your good pilots and not your crappy ones. To improve, lern from the masters and your mistakes. your STD engine allows you to tank with both Sidetorsi, and after this 50% damage transfer to the CT, thats a ton of HP, and I wish we clanners could change our engines to STD's, because some mechs would be very epic with STD's. Play with and vs the good IS units and you gonna get a clue of whats possible. Or stick to the mainstream mass doing half decent crab.

[Juodas Varnas]

Lily from animove, on 14 July 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

So how it comes that there are very potent players doing it right with STD engines? How about you look at your good pilots and not your crappy ones. To improve, lern from the masters and your mistakes. your STD engine allows you to tank with both Sidetorsi, and after this 50% damage transfer to the CT, thats a ton of HP, and I wish we clanners could change our engines to STD's, because some mechs would be very epic with STD's. Play with and vs the good IS units and you gonna get a clue of whats possible. Or stick to the mainstream mass doing half decent crab.

Well, i can't wait to see how many Clanners will run STD engine IIC mechs.
I'm guessing...
NOBODY

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 14 July 2015 - 01:54 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

from this graph, nova, catapult and kit fox seem the worst offenders
hopefully nothing will drastically change and they 3 will get into the top 5

[Blunt_Object]

How is the quickdraw not winning this? it was DOA when they first released it with people screaming it was too big and cumbersom. I mean it only 5 ton bigger than a griffin??

[bad arcade kitty]

BluntObject, on 14 July 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

How is the quickdraw not winning this? it was DOA when they first released it with people screaming it was too big and cumbersom. I mean it only 5 ton bigger than a griffin??

it's in the top five

[Inflatable Fish]

we need more votes for the Centurion. how people can vote for the KFX is beyond me and just shows that people are biased and play favourites instead of caring for actual balance.

(I voted CN9 because the AWS and QKD were also on my list and they're already well ahead, which I'm content with.)

Lily from animove, on 14 July 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

So how it comes that there are very potent players doing it right with STD engines? How about you look at your good pilots and not your crappy ones. To improve, lern from the masters and your mistakes. your STD engine allows you to tank with both Sidetorsi, and after this 50% damage transfer to the CT, thats a ton of HP, and I wish we clanners could change our engines to STD's, because some mechs would be very epic with STD's. Play with and vs the good IS units and you gonna get a clue of whats possible. Or stick to the mainstream mass doing half decent crab.

this only applies to mechs above 60 tons, really.

[bad arcade kitty]

Inflatable Fish, on 14 July 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

how people can vote for the KFX is beyond me and just shows that people are biased and play favourites instead of caring for actual balance.

see the graph above

compare the green circle to the orange one



who is biased now?

[Juodas Varnas]

bad arcade kitty, on 14 July 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

see the graph above

compare the green circle to the orange one



who is biased now?

Well, i mean, you're comparing an oversized (Uller) with normal (or even under)sized mechs (Urbie, Spider) and an oversized (Black Hawk/ Nova) with other oversized mechs (Centurion, Trebuchet).

[El Bandito]

I voted for Awesome.

Inflatable Fish, on 14 July 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

we need more votes for the Centurion. how people can vote for the KFX is beyond me and just shows that people are biased and play favourites instead of caring for actual balance.

Centurion is more popular though. KFX does need some help to see more use.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 July 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[Lugh]

Fleeb the Mad, on 13 July 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

I stand by what I said. Despite their size the Kit Fox and the Nova don't need as much help. The Kit Fox in particular sporting its ECM makes it vastly more survivable than any scaling changes would. It is too big and too slow for people who try and play it like an IS light, though that's not going to change. Most particularly Novas and Kit Foxes are common. Whatever their problems are it's not enough to keep them off the field.

The mechs that desperately need help but didn't get votes do so are phantoms, quietly haunting the hangar bays because there's not enough people playing or even seeing them to give them a voice.

As for Tukayyid, I played both sides. Keep in mind the IS had a 10 ton advantage on the drop deck that's since been rolled back. Also keep in mind that the results on their face don't mean very much to Clan v IS balance because team makeup is vastly more important than mechs. IS PUGS were in general better than the ones I was in on the Clan side, but that didn't stop organized units from utterly steamrolling no matter what.

There are only 4 clan mediums compared to the 12 on the IS side.

[Lily from animove]

Sry but the graph is badly analysed. (wiht the line)

First thing: why is the KGC the "top" base point and not the Atlas or Direwolf? all 3 are 100t mechs.
second thing counts for the locust, since the line now implies the locust is in the right size, while it does not consider if being too big or small.

third to make it visible whats wrong:, Raven, Panther, Firestarter and jenner are all 35t mechs. so the analysing graph should be on the same height at their point, But instead the graph has different heights for the same tonnages. Thats very incorrect and only looks "ok" because you aligned equal tonnage mechs by their values. But would you scramble them and exchange the raven with the jenner (all 2 are 35t mechs), it looks suddenly off. (Could also have used the adder to make it look even more extreme.)



suddenly, the jenner looks too small, and the raven too big, The Adder looks fine, while in fact not too far from the raven.

but since all 3 mechs play in the same tonnge league a crrect alaytics would have been their median



and suddenly, we see a bit more clear, that the raven is well sized, KFX (only 30tons) and ADR a bit too big and Jenner and panther too small. This explains why the KFX is such a loser in this race. it's nearly 40% more easy to hit than a jenner.

You need to stack graphs of the same tonnage to show this correctly.

similar to these 2

Spoiler

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 July 2015 - 04:02 AM.

[Mechteric]

There are far more medium mechs than any other weight class that need sizing updates (I'll go ahead and throw in the Quickdraw into the medium mech resizing bucket though)

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I just hope the Cent doesn't overtake the Kfx again.

[Luscious Dan]

Tough poll, as I'd say about 10 of the mechs in the top 12 actually need the re-scale.

Raven and Adder are fine, it's the Spider (too small) and Kit Fox (a little too big) that needed attention from the Lights. The rest of the weight classes seem pretty close I guess in terms of who's winning. But the 80 tonners do need some love, they aren't as heavily armed as the bigger assaults and aren't nearly as mobile as the heavies, so the oversized models do them a great disservice.

Victor needs more aesthetic tweaks than just a re-scale, so in some ways I hope it doesn't make the top 5. I'd rather wait and pray it gets a redo to match the concept art better. (Yes I always say this, but it's worth repeating... the Victor concept art is some of the best for all of MWO, but the game model is way too bulky and derpy)

Edited by Luscious Dan, 14 July 2015 - 07:58 AM.

[DAYLEET]

Tarogato, on 13 July 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

Since there's some heated discussion going on about the chart, I figured I should show the other ones. Tennex added the pink line, that's not my doing. He only showed one of my charts, the one that emphasis under-scaled mechs because he's particularly adamant about the Stalker being underscaled (even though it's not one of the worst overall offenders, imo)

Here is the same chart organised slightly differently, I much prefer this version:



Here is a similar chart that is only front profiles, no side profile incorporated:

---

To those saying it's just flat out "wrong", I remind that that it's at least empirical. It's obviously not the end-all metric for evaluating mech scale nor is it absolutely accurate/precise, but it's definitely interesting to look at.

If all mech had the same geometry and the same quirks this chart wouldnt be a complete pile of...

[Rushmoar]

Lily from animove, on 14 July 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

Sry but the graph is badly analysed. (wiht the line)

First thing: why is the KGC the "top" base point and not the Atlas or Direwolf? all 3 are 100t mechs.
second thing counts for the locust, since the line now implies the locust is in the right size, while it does not consider if being too big or small.

third to make it visible whats wrong:, Raven, Panther, Firestarter and jenner are all 35t mechs. so the analysing graph should be on the same height at their point, But instead the graph has different heights for the same tonnages. Thats very incorrect and only looks "ok" because you aligned equal tonnage mechs by their values. But would you scramble them and exchange the raven with the jenner (all 2 are 35t mechs), it looks suddenly off. (Could also have used the adder to make it look even more extreme.)

Pixels are a bad representation of volume in general. What would have more pixels, mapping a sheet of paper or a tennis ball? Which one would have more volume? it's really based on design of the object only. But the chart gives a base to start with so I like it for that reason.

[Sjorpha]

Those graphs seem to support what I've been saying all along, the grasshopper isn't actually oversized. People are just obsessed with height and don't look at the actual size and volume of the model.

I voted for Victor, but I hope the kit Fox, Centurion and Nova makes it as well.