318 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Tennex, on 10 July 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

Something to keep in mind while making these votes

can you make a count on this sololy comparing the CT profiles of the Nova vs the dragon's CT please?

[Spleenslitta]

Juodas Varnas, on 13 July 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

A madhouse. It's a damn madhouse!

Juodas Varnas, on 13 July 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Oppps....i'm dying too since i voted Cute Fox but i like the Quickdraw too....as a matter of fact it's the only heavy i really like.
The heaviest mech i've ever used in MWO as a matter of fact.

But to be honest i feel that if the Quickdraw, Centurion, Trebuchet and quite many others need a rescale badly.
I chose the Kit Fox because it's my favorite amongst those that needs a rescale i admit it.
But the ones that don't get on the list this will be rescaled at a later date. Only question is when?

Have you seen how long the beak on the Raven is Juodas?
When the Raven is lying on it's back the beak is at the same height as a Spider standing straight up.
It's just like you described it - It's a madhouse.

[Greenjulius]

Spleenslitta, on 13 July 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Have you seen how long the beak on the Raven is Juodas?
When the Raven is lying on it's back the beak is at the same height as a Spider standing straight up.
It's just like you described it - It's a madhouse.

Battletech designs were so 80's, it sometimes comes back to haunt us. The era of robots that transform into trucks and boomboxes for god's sake.

If we wanted a game with realistic looking battle bots, they'd likely look far more functional and less interesting. That's why it's important to keep those strange things in each mech... to give them personality. Hopefully we can find a good middle ground to keep that personality while still keeping the designs funtional.

[xe N on]

Bloodweaver, on 12 July 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Eh, no... The Nova is easily the most oversized 'Mech in the game.

Accordingly to the wrong and manipulative chart ... yes. According to a direct ingame comparsion of front and side profile: no

The Nova is quite short in fact. The Cent is much taller then the Nova, same goes for e.g. Enforcer and the Trebuchet, which are both 50 ton mechs. The Nova got about the same height as the 45 ton Blackjack, which is quite a small mech compared to the 45 ton Vindicator.

To compensate for it's reduced height, the Nova should be wider. And - as a matter of fact - it is wider. Although it is slightly too bulky, it definitely do not deserve the 1st place in this vote.

Edited by xe N on, 13 July 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[AdamBaines]

Not sure why everyone is complaining about the single vote. Anyhow, it seems like its panning out based on what needs to change (at least measured by the loudest complaints). The most complained about mechs are in the top 5 so far: Fit Fox, Nova, QuickDraw, Awesome and Catapult.

[TexAce]

Clan mechs shouldnt be in this polls at all. They dont deserve to be in there. IS pilots are waiting 2 FRIKING YEARS LONGER to get their mechs rescaled and now some stupid clanners think they deserve the same treamtment at the same time. No way.

Edited by TexAce, 13 July 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[Lily from animove]

xe N on, on 13 July 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Accordingly to the wrong and manipulative chart ... yes. According to a direct ingame comparsion of front and side profile: no

The Nova is quite short in fact. The Cent is much taller then the Nova, same goes for e.g. Vindicator, which are both 50 ton mechs. The Nova got about the same height as a Blackjack, which is a 45 ton mech.

To compensate for, it should be wider. And - as a matter of fact - it is wider, but slightly too much. But it definitely not deserve the 1st place in this vote.

absolute size does not matter and is rather irrelevant, people need to understand the mechs size is mostly important to their relative size between guns and cockpit. And the second part is Body coverage of the mech itself.

Bigger mechs have advantages to shoot over obstacles. If they make the Nova more squad, then much fun with the crystals on turmaline, you could basically not fire over much stuff anymore. So you just treat one pain in the butt for another.
But the cockpit to weapon ratio is what truly counts. Because it decides how many profile you have to show to fire at stuff and how easy it will be for your opponent to fire back and how early they can spot and react to your mech. Nova has a issue here, but + 20 structure to CT would have helped with all the other HP quirks together. They gave a lot leg HP's, which was not needed. I am not hyped about the Nova "rescale" because whatever PGI does it will not help the Nova to be more playbale without destroying the "Nova" in the Nova since all required changes will have to change the proportions and the mech will just not look like a Nova anymore.

The second is as said, the mech coverage itself. While the Centurion may be bigger as the Nova, it can twist to hide the CT, The Nova can't, the Nova CT is hitable form ALL angles. Thats the worst problem with the Novas current chassis, and also a heritage of the Lore design. (even if they would make the nova more squad). And a rescale will also not fix this issue, so its wasted effort at this point. The only solution is HP quirks, anything else will destroy the familarity of the Nova with the TT original (which already is screwed enough due to "forced Torso gyrotwist thingy").

So the Nova is worse in Hitbox than the CNT, yet I would rather much prefer to see the centurion rescaled, because there is still that tiny bit of Battletech in this game. And the Nova can be "fixed" with easier, less effort costing treatments (CT HP quirks as the dragon got).


And from this Point of view they should make the centurion more slim



it's too wide (especially the legs) than it's original.

cut the legs 33% slimmer and its fine, since it also allows a slimmer Upper torso able to twist then.

And further, why was there no vote for increasing scale of certain IS mechs, especially lights, some of them are too tiny. Thats why clan lights are lookig pitiful in comparison. While in fact KFX and ADR are nicely designed by visuals.

Catapult does not need a rescale either, what it needs is just a hitbox area change, pull part of the ST's across the nose as the stalker has. Tighten the "between the legs CT" part as the Stalker has.
Catas and Stalker have same a rather similar base shape, yte the stalker by its CT area is so much better, sololy due to the way how the ST's and legs hitboxes cover CT areas the Cata exposes unnecessarily.


off-topic:
And I do not like any polls in the dev outreach, they are rather much more opinions of the palyerbase then proper quality feedback. And most votes will not lead to a improvement for the greater good of the game.

the Quirk like/dislike pols for example, is not proper feedback you get there, it's what people like and dislike. But some are necessary for balance, even if disliked.

Same in this thread, why is the dragon not even in this list?
Because sane Dragon players don't vote for it, because rescaling may also mean giving some of their quirks in reverse, and currently the Dragon is montser of a mech with the quirks it got. Thats nothing they would like to lose.

Edited by Lily from animove, 13 July 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

AdamBaines, on 13 July 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

Not sure why everyone is complaining about the single vote. Anyhow, it seems like its panning out based on what needs to change (at least measured by the loudest complaints). The most complained about mechs are in the top 5 so far: Fit Fox, Nova, QuickDraw, Awesome and Catapult.

Except some mechs like the Trebuchet, which were basically the poster child of oversized mechs, didn't even make it into the second phase of voting.

[AdamBaines]

Juodas Varnas, on 13 July 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Except some mechs like the Trebuchet, which were basically the poster child of oversized mechs, didn't even make it into the second phase of voting.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the second round and how its proceeding.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Butane9000, on 13 July 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

Honestly after thinking about this the entire poll is a sham.

Most if not all of these mechs need rescaling. The fact that we're "voting" on which we want is asinine. How much time has been wasted by the devs doing this vote when it could have been devoted to actually rescaling these atrocities.

I don't think setting up a poll takes much dev time. In fact, I'd say polling is about saving time not wasting it. Devs have **** to do, namely adding new mechs and new features. Mech packs keep the game funded and new features keep the player base alive.

While I agree with you that a lot of mechs need rescaling, it's like Russ said, "I honestly think you guys would prefer some new content over rebalancing ALL of the old content." What they are doing is striking a blance between creating and fixing, and it's only pragmatic that they fix the mechs people want fixed the most; it keeps players happy.

What I will say though is I think they should rescale the top six mechs in this case, as the top 6 are all vying to be rescaled whereas everything else on this list has almost no votes by comparison. The smart move would be to say "hey we can see what mechs you REALLY want rescaled so we'll do all six."

[Lily from animove]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 13 July 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

I don't think setting up a poll takes much dev time. In fact, I'd say polling is about saving time not wasting it. Devs have **** to do, namely adding new mechs and new features. Mech packs keep the game funded and new features keep the player base alive.

While I agree with you that a lot of mechs need rescaling, it's like Russ said, "I honestly think you guys would prefer some new content over rebalancing ALL of the old content." What they are doing is striking a blance between creating and fixing, and it's only pragmatic that they fix the mechs people want fixed the most; it keeps players happy.

What I will say though is I think they should rescale the top six mechs in this case, as the top 6 are all vying to be rescaled whereas everything else on this list has almost no votes by comparison. The smart move would be to say "hey we can see what mechs you REALLY want rescaled so we'll do all six."

a bit nonsens,e because any not balanced old stuff is dead stuff, which basically is removing an old feature, or "letting it die". Many players in MWO like specific mechs, its what motivats them to play the game. if their beloved mehc dies, they go away too.

So yes making some fixes and some new stuff is fine, yet these polls for balance are not good, because they imply that everyone polling has a specific amount of expertise, whihc is unfortunately not true. Most are rather casual palyers and do neihter corretly know the issues of the mechs, not their strenght or weaknesses to abuse them on opponents.

Those mechs they want to be rescaled, are not the mechs that need the rescale, further given what many people suggets for the Nova as "rescales" I can guarantee you they will curse the mech (and PGI) after the rescale even more.

Edited by Lily from animove, 13 July 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[Rushmoar]

Nathan K, on 11 July 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Edit: Still, why does the Catapult have sooooo many votes?

This I don't get either. So many people play the catapult as it is now but no one wants to touch the Quickdraw which needs it a hell of a lot more. People want their good mech to be even better I guess. I think it's too bias and that's kinda lame.

AdamBaines, on 13 July 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

The most complained about mechs are in the top 5 so far: Fit Fox, Nova, QuickDraw, Awesome and Catapult.

I can live with this list if the Quickdraw makes it with the Cat. Lets hope that if the Kit Fox makes it, the Adder might get sucked in as well as a side note.

Edited by Rushmoar, 13 July 2015 - 09:37 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Rushmoar, on 13 July 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

This I don't get either. So many people play the catapult as it is now but no one wants to touch the Quickdraw which needs it a hell of a lot more. People want their good mech to be even better I guess. I think it's too bias and that's kinda lame.

because it has ****** hitboxes and is one of the easiest mech to destroy. top 3 worst CT with the Nova and dragon

Strange because its rather similar shaped as the Stalker, but the way how PGI distribted CT and ST's makes the catapult the easy pick while the stalker is a pain in the ass to take out. and thta does not come form the stalkers higher Hitpoints. Its simply the way how you spread damage with a stalker easily, while the cata has hardly a chance to properly spread anything.

[xe N on]

Lily from animove, on 13 July 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

absolute size does not matter and is rather irrelevant, people need to understand the mechs size is mostly important to their relative size between guns and cockpit. And the second part is Body coverage of the mech itself.

That is wrong. For large or wide profile mechs it is much more difficult to spread damage over multiple parts. And these mechs are much easier to cripple in ranged combat.

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Bigger mechs have advantages to shoot over obstacles. If they make the Nova more squad, then much fun with the crystals on turmaline, you could basically not fire over much stuff anymore.

It got jump jets, you know? And these jump jets were just upgraded in the last patch.

Quote

But the cockpit to weapon ratio is what truly counts. Because it decides how many profile you have to show to fire at stuff and how easy it will be for your opponent to fire back and how early they can spot and react to your mech.

Agree and disagree. For peek a boo it matters, but even with low arm weapon points you can peek left or right on any obstacle without exposing your full mech. Ok, you won't beat a Stalker by that but better then nothing.

If only hardpoint location would matter, the Timberwolf would not be the top tier mech.

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Nova has a issue here, but + 20 structure to CT would have helped with all the other HP quirks together.
The second is as said, the mech coverage itself. While the Centurion may be bigger as the Nova, it can twist to hide the CT, The Nova can't, the Nova CT is hitable form ALL angles.

No. It is a pure hitbox, but not necessarily a geometry problem. Look at the Stalker. If all of the large "zeppelin"-shaped torso would be CT, the Stalker would be seriously gimped.

CT, RT and LT is just a matter of where I define my hitboxes. Simply make the side torso cover the right and left side of the zeppelin-shaped part of the Nova's torso, problem fixed. It now tanks as a lighter Timberwolf or Stormcrow.

Edited by xe N on, 13 July 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[xe N on]

Rushmoar, on 13 July 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

This I don't get either. So many people play the catapult as it is now but no one wants to touch the Quickdraw which needs it a hell of a lot more. People want their good mech to be even better I guess. I think it's too bias and that's kinda lame.

Is this meant to be irony? The Catapult is maybe played by some LRM dedicated beginner players in the lower ELO hells, who doesn't realize that there are even multiple mechs that are better LRM boats that the CAT.

I started MWO with a LRM CAT. Until I realized that any weapon with the exceptions of flamers are a better choice.I still have my C1 and K2. But I never played them for YEARS.

Edited by xe N on, 13 July 2015 - 10:01 AM.

[Greenjulius]

xe N on, on 13 July 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Is this meant to be irony? The Catapult is maybe played by some LRM dedicated beginner players in the lower ELO hells, who doesn't realize that there are even multiple mechs that are better LRM boats that the CAT.

I started MWO with a LRM CAT. Until I realized that any weapon with the exceptions of flamers are a better choice.I still have my C1 and K2. But I never played them for YEARS.

Yeah, saying Catapults are even semi-common is fantasy.

In my ELO, I don't see LRM catapults at all, and rarely see the Jester and K2 brought out.

The reason the quickdraw is never taken out is simply because it's not a good mech, and sits in the terrible 60 ton heavy curse zone. JJ weigh a ton, double the 55 tonners. Hardpoints are almost all energy, and don't have good enough quirks. IS lasers without quirks are just plain weak. Its like a weaker version of the Grasshopper, which is already a mediocre mech.

The big model is the final nail in the coffin, killing the Quickdraw before it even has a chance. Honestly, the Quickdraw needs to be redone from the ground up.

[627]

This is getting ridiculous. First the nova, and now the kit fox? seriously? And for those mechs we lost the trench bucket in the first round?

And now those mechs will take 2 slots from only 5 for the rescale while we have the hopper that is tall and wide like an atlas?

I'm not even sure why anybody voted for the shawk... and the cent is a bit too large, since closed beta but actually this didn't impact gameplay with it. But trebuchet, awesome, quickdraw and catapult really need a change.

kit fox, lol, still can't believe it. Nova I can get to some degrees, although it gets all clan tech advantages. But those IS mechs really need it since forever.

[Lily from animove]

xe N on, on 13 July 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

That is wrong. For large or wide profile mechs it is much more difficult to spread damage over multiple parts. And these mechs are much easier to cripple in ranged combat.


It got jump jets, you know? And these jump jets were just upgraded in the last patch.


Agree and disagree. For peek a boo it matters, but even with low arm weapon points you can peek left or right on any obstacle without exposing your full mech. Ok, you won't beat a Stalker by that but better then nothing.

If only hardpoint location would matter, the Timberwolf would not be the top tier mech.


No. It is a pure hitbox, but not necessarily a geometry problem. Look at the Stalker. If all of the large "zeppelin"-shaped torso would be CT, the Stalker would be seriously gimped.

CT, RT and LT is just a matter of where I define my hitboxes. Simply make the side torso cover the right and left side of the zeppelin-shaped part of the Nova's torso, problem fixed. It now tanks as a lighter Timberwolf or Stormcrow.

wow what game do you play? DO you stikc out int he open? Cover is the most important in MWO, and so mech size at all, is only secondary since there is a ton of huge cover everywhere, its not that w play on open maps like MW3 was.

Further, good luck with JJ around everywhere, its still a very slow way to peeka boo, especially with the top to arm length the Nova has, this is very forseeable. And making Nova smaller would even mean nerfing the JJ's since now you need to spent more JJ fuel to get to the same height. Further being more squat emans the nova on canyon for example needs to go closer to the edges to be able to shooter over the edges donwards, and this means leaving usual rock cover further than other mechs need.

you don't need lwo arms for left right peek a boos, this works with all arms. and higher arms are still better, because in cqc situations if yould be you aren't able to shoot at a head of a side profile showing mech, since the arms may bloock line of fire.

And the TBR has not so low slung arms at all. It's taller than the nova and by this can shoot even with it's arms over most obstacles. And the Torso hardpoints are in a comfortable height, thats why the TBR with those "low" slung arms is not even so los slung as many think.

627, on 13 July 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

This is getting ridiculous. First the nova, and now the kit fox? seriously? And for those mechs we lost the trench bucket in the first round?

And now those mechs will take 2 slots from only 5 for the rescale while we have the hopper that is tall and wide like an atlas?

I'm not even sure why anybody voted for the shawk... and the cent is a bit too large, since closed beta but actually this didn't impact gameplay with it. But trebuchet, awesome, quickdraw and catapult really need a change.

kit fox, lol, still can't believe it. Nova I can get to some degrees, although it gets all clan tech advantages. But those IS mechs really need it since forever.

well, a ton of players just don't have any idea about how to use the geometry of their mech properly.

the kit fox does not have a scale problem, it has a laodout problem. Any light with only E in arms, is ******, since light mech arms pop too easy. by some random hits.
then his second biggest issue is the ecm in the arm. Imagine it had 2 E's in CT or each sidetorso, and ecm in any of the torso or head. Then it would suddenly be a lot better mech.

[xe N on]

Lily from animove, on 13 July 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

wow what game do you play? DO you stikc out int he open?

I play the only true Mechwarrior Online ... the close quarter brawling game. It's only for the toughest and it's so much more fun then Laser-Peek-A-Boo-Warrior Online.

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Cover is the most important in MWO, and so mech size at all, is only secondary since there is a ton of huge cover everywhere, its not that w play on open maps like MW3 was.

My NinJenner can cover anywhere. Even behind a Commando. If your cover is too high, you have poorly chosen your cover. For hill like covers, size doesn't matter. In contrast, flat mechs with high weapon hardpoints are the best hill humpers.

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Further, good luck with JJ around everywhere, its still a very slow way to peeka boo, especially with the top to arm length the Nova has

Beside, nobody talked about making the Nova even smaller (in terms of vertical length). And if someone would, I probably would teamkill him ... with a death from above.

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you don't need lwo arms for left right peek a boos, this works with all arms. and higher arms are still better, because in cqc situations if yould be you aren't able to shoot at a head of a side profile showing mech, since the arms may bloock line of fire.

I never said you need. I just said you can. I doing this with my SCR, waiting until this boring laser peek-a-boo lamers are dead - necessarily, I pretend to be one of their kind and then ... booya ... ambush! With a hell of SRMs firework! Quite epic and brought to you in true color by 4xC-SRM4+A launchers (really, C-SRM6 are for butchers only!)

There is only one thing that is even more fun. To do the same thing even more intense in my GRF-3M flying through the air powered by 6 JJs killing clan mech pilots who think IS mechs are outdated metal scrap from the past centruries.

Edited by xe N on, 13 July 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

>the kit fox does not have a scale problem

lolwhat
compare its size to the size of spider of the same weight