460 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Kalimaster, on 14 July 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Clan Mech are intended to be more powerful than the IS. That is a fact. If you want to argue this point, call one of the original creators for Battletech up sometime.

Necromantion, on 14 July 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Let me summarize

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Clan responses to having a weapon 3 tons lights and taking up less space in the mech. How has Clan easy mode gone on this long?

[Necromantion]

Once again people, lets talk about dual gauss. The amount of rounds carried by mechs in either faction is the same so whats the big point?

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

cool, so be outright superior in every way.. makes sense.

They are Clan 'mechs. They are supposed to be superior! Until Level 2 Inner Sphere weapons come, they should be!

Or do you propose nerf the Clan 'mechs into the ground now only to see the disaster that is made of them when the Inner Sphere gets all those new, fancy weapons?

Instead of nerfing Clan tech, PUG queue should have been Inner Sphere vs. Clan and it would be 3 lances vs. 2 stars. 12 vs. 10. It is lunacy to nerf Clan tech. Play the game how it was meant to be.

This isn't even Battletech anymore. All the crap that has been changed--this is some freak show robot simulation where we're constantly adding in magic this, fairy tale that. It's ludicrous.

[Johnny Z]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

They are Clan 'mechs. They are supposed to be superior! Until Level 2 Inner Sphere weapons come, they should be!

Or do you propose nerf the Clan 'mechs into the ground now only to see the disaster that is made of them when the Inner Sphere gets all those new, fancy weapons?

Instead of nerfing Clan tech, PUG queue should have been Inner Sphere vs. Clan and it would be 3 lances vs. 2 stars. 12 vs. 10. It is lunacy to nerf Clan tech. Play the game how it was meant to be.

This isn't even Battletech anymore. All the crap that has been changed--this is some freak show robot simulation where we're constantly adding in magic this, fairy tale that. It's ludicrous.

Your aware original Battletech had balanced game play, as in all mechs used balanced equipment and weapons?

I hope all this isnt related to the original battletech being sued for using mechs they paid for and thought they owned, or that the great characters from the original Battletech were completely and uterlly messed up and changed, in the most insulting ways i may add, or that even the original Battletech stats were thrown out and made garbage.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 July 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

They are Clan 'mechs. They are supposed to be superior! Until Level 2 Inner Sphere weapons come, they should be!

Or do you propose nerf the Clan 'mechs into the ground now only to see the disaster that is made of them when the Inner Sphere gets all those new, fancy weapons?

Instead of nerfing Clan tech, PUG queue should have been Inner Sphere vs. Clan and it would be 3 lances vs. 2 stars. 12 vs. 10. It is lunacy to nerf Clan tech. Play the game how it was meant to be.

This isn't even Battletech anymore. All the crap that has been changed--this is some freak show robot simulation where we're constantly adding in magic this, fairy tale that. It's ludicrous.

this is a FPS game. It's Called balance. Unless you can convince them to let us fight 5v8? Since That Is also "lore".

[Adiuvo]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Instead of nerfing Clan tech, PUG queue should have been Inner Sphere vs. Clan and it would be 3 lances vs. 2 stars. 12 vs. 10. It is lunacy to nerf Clan tech. Play the game how it was meant to be.

That's impossible and to say otherwise ignores realities of the game. It doesn't have that large of a population nor are there even an equal proportion of clan and IS players. Furthermore what do you do in something like group queue, where you can mix tech? Or would people just not have that capability?

There's a reason CW has the pop it does, and it's not all due to people getting bored of the game mode.

[Mister Blastman]

Johnny Z, on 14 July 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

Your aware original Battletech had balanced game play, as in all mechs used balanced equipment and weapons?

I hope all this isnt related to the original battletech being sued for using mechs they paid for and thought they owned, or that the great characters from the original Battletech were completely and uterlly messed up and changed, in the most insulting ways i may add, or that even the original Battletech stats were thrown out and made garbage.

Battletech balanced gameplay with BV. And even that wasn't perfect but I'd rather have that than constantly nerfing the clan stuff we already have.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 14 July 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Johnny Z, on 14 July 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

Your aware original Battletech had balanced game play, as in all mechs used balanced equipment and weapons?

I hope all this isnt related to the original battletech being sued for using mechs they paid for and thought they owned, or that the great characters from the original Battletech were completely and uterlly messed up and changed, in the most insulting ways i may add, or that even the original Battletech stats were thrown out and made garbage.

You have never even SEEN the TT game have you? No need to answer, your post makes it crystal clear. 3025 Tech ONLY, no Clans at all, no DHS, no ER toys, Inner Sphere ONLY, and the game is NOT balanced at all. Bigger is better, pure and simple, that's BattleTech, that's been BattleTech since it was called BattleDroids, it was ALWAYS that way, the Clan addition to the game with the more powerful Tech added for the Inner Sphere at the same time just showed how badly the lack of balance really was and reduced all the IS Tech to the scrapheap. Clans were totally OP compared to all IS Tech, they remain that way EVEN NOW, as the IS advancements in Tech never actually equals the Clans, it just gets CLOSER to their power levels, they still retain the edge, even now. Why do you think so many Jihad and Dark Ages toys are Mixed Tech? Oh, right, you don't actually know about any of this, so you wouldn't be aware of this, you think BTech is balanced.....excuse me, but I am literally laughing at you right now, outloud, my Director of Operations is looking at me like I've lost my mind again.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

You have never even SEEN the TT game have you? No need to answer, your post makes it crystal clear. 3025 Tech ONLY, no Clans at all, no DHS, no ER toys, Inner Sphere ONLY, and the game is NOT balanced at all. Bigger is better, pure and simple, that's BattleTech, that's been BattleTech since it was called BattleDroids, it was ALWAYS that way, the Clan addition to the game with the more powerful Tech added for the Inner Sphere at the same time just showed how badly the lack of balance really was and reduced all the IS Tech to the scrapheap. Clans were totally OP compared to all IS Tech, they remain that way EVEN NOW, as the IS advancements in Tech never actually equals the Clans, it just gets CLOSER to their power levels, they still retain the edge, even now. Why do you think so many Jihad and Dark Ages toys are Mixed Tech? Oh, right, you don't actually know about any of this, so you wouldn't be aware of this, you think BTech is balanced.....excuse me, but I am literally laughing at you right now, outloud, my Director of Operations is looking at me like I've lost my mind again.

actually, 3025 tech wasn't too bad. Not great, but hardly ultra borked.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

They are Clan 'mechs. They are supposed to be superior! Until Level 2 Inner Sphere weapons come, they should be!

Or do you propose nerf the Clan 'mechs into the ground now only to see the disaster that is made of them when the Inner Sphere gets all those new, fancy weapons?

Instead of nerfing Clan tech, PUG queue should have been Inner Sphere vs. Clan and it would be 3 lances vs. 2 stars. 12 vs. 10. It is lunacy to nerf Clan tech. Play the game how it was meant to be.

This isn't even Battletech anymore. All the crap that has been changed--this is some freak show robot simulation where we're constantly adding in magic this, fairy tale that. It's ludicrous.

1st paragraph: Attempt at game balance. Both sides being equal, but in a different way. Good multiplayer games need all sides involved to have an equal chance for victory

2nd Paragraph: If this game is around long enough to see a timeline with "better" IS weapons, why would they be superior? They would be treated the same as clans. An attempt at creating equal but different.

3rd Paragraph: PGI ran test servers 12 v 10 some time ago, but found it didn't really work. I think the problem with using quantity of players to offset weapon strength is it is too erratic to be a reliable balance tool. Variances in the quality of players or disconnects would be way more damaging on a team down 2 players from the start. Plus, if the IS team suffered a disconnect or a player who runs off to suicide to c-bill farm, then the team is almost balanced in numbers with clambers having a clear advantage. Its just too unreliable of a metric for balance.

Not too mention, if IS players needed numbers to win vs strength for balance, Clan players would get better personal scores and possibly earnings where IS players would get lower scores and earnings. After all clans have more targets to shoot at and more opportunities to get more kills. It just would be a mess to reliably balance that. Not to mention how chassis queue levels could throw that off even more. It just isn't as easy as 10 v 12

4th Paragraph: It is Battletech (at least MechWarrior). What you want is a lot more easier to do in a single player focused title where the AI doesn't care if your clan mech is superior and is firing ERPPCs with Gauss alpha striking with no ghost heat . Compromises need to be made in a setup like MWO whether purist dislike it or not. Whether right or wrong it is the reality of a game like this.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

this is a FPS game. It's Called balance. Unless you can convince them to let us fight 5v8? Since That Is also "lore".

There is no balance in MWO. There's only shifting meta. It will never be balanced until the core mechanical issues with the game itself are addressed.

Let's see, we're currently in the third era...

First Era: SRMs dominate and close range brawling is the norm

Second Era: SRMs are destroyed with hit reg + stupid spread mechanic (and have never fully come back), PPC/Gauss sniping dominates. Later goes to PPC+Autocannon / Gauss sniping. Brawling is dead.

Third Era: SRMs sort of revived but still inferior to the NEW meta--Laser Vomit. This is where we have been. Brawling might exist in private matches/league play (I have no idea, I haven't bothered playing this game competitively in almost a year now). Hit reg is as bad as it ever has been.

As you see, my biases aside, the era shifts and we have a new meta that is as imbalanced as the last one, but in different ways. I recall a short period of time post second pre third where things were "decent" but never the way they were in the first era. Even the first wasn't perfect. Long range weapons were a joke for quite some time during the first. But then a couple really bad things happened... first terrain movement penalties. This murdered brawling. Second, PPC hitreg was fixed (and now seems broken again). SRMs were obliterated with splash removal and worst of all, the stupid ever expanding shotgun pattern (no more in-out-in).

We keep changing weapon stats. We keep re-balancing. But we go in circles because core mechanics continue to be broken and no balance or symbiosis can ever be achieved until they are dealt with.

We have jump jet issues because of snipers and mobility. But we have terrain movement penalties which sometimes severely impeded non-jetting 'mechs. We have SRMs that continue to have 1x range whereas all other weapons have 2x and 3x range values.

It's a mess! There's no wonder people are crying for balance thread after thread here! Because there is no cohesion, no strong core to hold it all together, it has turned into a ice cream biology diagram that has melted all over the petri dish.

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

That's impossible and to say otherwise ignores realities of the game. It doesn't have that large of a population nor are there even an equal proportion of clan and IS players. Furthermore what do you do in something like group queue, where you can mix tech? Or would people just not have that capability?

There's a reason CW has the pop it does, and it's not all due to people getting bored of the game mode.

I think the reason CW has such a bad population is the poor map design. DOTA maps in a first person 'mech game? Please.

Look no further than that. It's just poorly thought out and badly conceived.

[Adiuvo]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

snip

ATM, balance between playstyles isn't that bad. It's mech/class balance that's horrid, but if you wanna brawl depending on the map you can. If you wanna snipe, depending on the map you can. If you wanna be somewhat effective all the time, then you take a conventional mid range build like gauss/lasers.

[Mister Blastman]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

ATM, balance between playstyles isn't that bad. It's mech/class balance that's horrid, but if you wanna brawl depending on the map you can. If you wanna snipe, depending on the map you can. If you wanna be somewhat effective all the time, then you take a conventional mid range build like gauss/lasers.

The mech/class balance is terrible because of the core mechanics. If you allow a 75 - 100 ton 'mech dump 50 - 70 pts of damage into a single torso panel, the smaller 'mechs are just going to spontaneously combust.

One simple solution is removing convergence (NO cone of fire, no RNG!) and while not perfect (there are a few big 'mechs that will be fine regardless), the smaller, narrower 'mechs will naturally have more concentrated fire against the bigger ones and tend to do more damage per panel than a wider behemoth can.

12v12 doesn't help smaller 'mechs, either. 8v8 would help--but some folks not even that would help.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

The mech/class balance is terrible because of the core mechanics. If you allow a 75 - 100 ton 'mech dump 50 - 70 pts of damage into a single torso panel, the smaller 'mechs are just going to spontaneously combust.

On paper, yes, but that is not the reality of it. Small mechs don't die the second they come under fire.

[Necromantion]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 July 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

On paper, yes, but that is not the reality of it. Small mechs don't die the second they come under fire.

Dual gauss would like to have a word with you.

So would dual IS AC20

[Mcgral18]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

The mech/class balance is terrible because of the core mechanics. If you allow a 75 - 100 ton 'mech dump 50 - 70 pts of damage into a single torso panel, the smaller 'mechs are just going to spontaneously combust.

One simple solution is removing convergence (NO cone of fire, no RNG!) and while not perfect (there are a few big 'mechs that will be fine regardless), the smaller, narrower 'mechs will naturally have more concentrated fire against the bigger ones and tend to do more damage per panel than a wider behemoth can.

12v12 doesn't help smaller 'mechs, either. 8v8 would help--but some folks not even that would help.

In 3PV there's already a variance; same magical convergence as ever, but the faster you move, the faster the crosshair moves up down /side to side.

It affects lasers more than anything. Put that into 1PV, but since it's speed based...doesn't really affect the Whale, so something would have to change there (impacts faster, lighter mechs more, which is not what you want).

Scale it to throttle, or something. Same magical convergence, you just have to either slow down, or time it right (which Lasers you can't really time it unless they've got a half second duration).



I find it strange how the gimp 3PV on multiple accounts. No map, more spread than 1PV and that crosshair sticking of sorts.

[Dimento Graven]

Necromantion, on 14 July 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

...

Once again nothing you said changes the fact that the points I made were valid. o7

You may no valid point actually. The weapon is lighter, has less crit requirements (which ALSO just in case you haven't realized it, means there's LESS of a chance of it taking a crit hit with open torso), AND just to add insult to injury, those Clan builds have XL's if I'm not mistaken, and if you equip the aforementioned IS 'mechs with XL's they have a huge 'survivability' problem that the Clan 'mechs don't suffer.

I'd GLADLY trade less ammo if I could equip an XL, maintaining some speed, that wouldn't blow the F up the moment I lose a side torso.

Your point wasn't even moot in this discussion.

'...same amount of ammo...' as a 'balance' factor... GIVE ME A BREAK...

[Mcgral18]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

You may no valid point actually. The weapon is lighter, has less crit requirements (which ALSO just in case you haven't realized it, means there's LESS of a chance of it taking a crit hit with open torso)

Only if you crit pad.


Ferro and Endo slots do not count as Crit padding (but engines and actuators do).

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Only if you crit pad.


Ferro and Endo slots do not count as Crit padding (but engines and actuators do).

And heat sinks and non-exploding gauss ammo, and BAP, and AMS, and ECM, any other weapon, etc. etc., and yes, the moment you put ANYTHING ELSE that can be crit'd in a location with a Clan gauss, it automatically has 1/7th, less a chance of being crit'd out. Over the long haul that's fairly significant, especially in CW where 'mech survivability can be more paramount than maximized DPS.

[Necromantion]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

You may no valid point actually. The weapon is lighter, has less crit requirements (which ALSO just in case you haven't realized it, means there's LESS of a chance of it taking a crit hit with open torso), AND just to add insult to injury, those Clan builds have XL's if I'm not mistaken, and if you equip the aforementioned IS 'mechs with XL's they have a huge 'survivability' problem that the Clan 'mechs don't suffer.

I'd GLADLY trade less ammo if I could equip an XL, maintaining some speed, that wouldn't blow the F up the moment I lose a side torso.

Your point wasn't even moot in this discussion.

'...same amount of ammo...' as a 'balance' factor... GIVE ME A BREAK...

Were talking gauss not C-XL engines. The potential amount of damage afforded via a gauss as IS in a build is the same as Clans. The amount that can be viably used in builds while running acceptable amounts of ammo in the same weight classes are identical as well.

Of all the weapons that IS players want to whine about were now talking gauss? this is laughable.