945 replies to this topic

[Torben]

Oh well, what a nerf to the "almighty" ECM.

Now I am looking forward to all those low-skillers getting their LRM-boats ready for another drive again. Because that is what the nerfing of ECM does to a pug game. It pushes the capability of LRM-Mechs to an extend beyond believe. Since in pug games, no one really actively looks out for a bubble and an ECM-Pilot has to try to find the best position to still support some decent protection from LRMs, this will not be worthwhile with an 90m radius.

Another valid question would be, why PGI lately roled out so many new ECM-mechs while already being aware, that ECM is in their opinion overpowered. Just selling the "almighty" ECM before nerfing it? At least getting a few bucks out of it before the cash cow dries out?

Why the hell did I buy a new package? Should have known better.

Edited by Torben, 21 July 2015 - 02:13 AM.

[Finletter]

I find it truly sad that the most common response to this post is, essentially "Screw my team, nerf it all you want! As long as it doesn't affect ME it's fine!"

It's already difficult finding people willing to run ECM as support, and 90 or 60m max range will basically *make* it a self-only tool. I doubt there's many locations on any map where you could fit 4 mechs, let alone 12, within a 90m radius and actually have them under cover and able to fire on enemies.

The end result of this is not going to be what you want - it's going to be the return of the lurm boats of old.

[0111101]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Heres a suggestion to information warfare/fixing ECM
Give all mechs Seismic Sensor by default as a "Radar"

Almost all mechs equip the module seismic sensor. It has become the de facto Radar of Mechwarrior Online. (don't freak out. Think of this change as just Seismic Sensor with more integration into Role Warfare)
Summary of what changing seismic sensor to Radar will do for the game :

• Active/Passive Radar
  
• True to lore implementation of ECM. That doesn't break all missiles
  
• Visual/Missile Targeting is the ONLY mechanic of Information Warfare right now. This change will fix that
  
• True to lore implementation of whatever the hell radar tech you can think of
  
• Null Sig

And here is the how:





By actually having a Radar mechanic you are are able to implement features that are true to lore.
Meanwhile the Radar(seismic sensor) portion of the game is still kept separate from the Missile Lock/Visual Lock portion of the game. What this mean is:

#1 Just because you see mechs on your Radar(seismic sensor) doesn't mean you can lob LRMs at them. Just because you see them on Radar, doesn't mean you can have damage information on them. (A problem the developers sought to get rid of from the old game.)

#2 Lore ECM: Having a separate Radar and Missile targeting system means that ECM can have the Radar jamming portion of its function (invisible from Radar, jams enemy's Radar), without the missile targeting interference. I.E true to lore and does not break an entire 1/3 of the weapons.


#3 You can tune/adjust a mech's Radar capability without hindering its Missile/Visual Targeting ability. I.E if you lower the Missile Targeting range from 1000 you can no longer effectively use LRMS. Whereas if you lower the Radar radius there is no effect on viability of Missile weapons. Worried that giving light mechs 2x Visual/Missile Lock will wreck the game? Worry no more, giving light mechs 2x Radar range is fine and encouraged!

#4 Passive/Active Radar! Turn off your own Radar(Seismic Sensor), and other mechs will not see you on their Radar. This means mechs will still be able to sneak around, and have that stealth gameplay.



Heck, devs can add Null Sig if they wanted to if it no longer has functionality overlap with ECM. Miss your Sniper Raven? Slap that Null Sig onto a Rave, turn on Passive Radar and it works just like ECM does now without the broken umbrella.

I am almost always in a mech equipped with ECM and I am 100% okay with the range nerf. At present, ECM is just too good to pass up. Even with a range nerf, it's just too good to pass up. I think the range change is an excellent first step, and that what Tennex has suggested is a great idea.

I am 100% on board with Tennex's excellent suggestions quoted above in this post.

If you ever remove a module from the game in order to make it a feature integral to all mechs (talking seismic sensor), PGI will NEED to refund every player's hard earned C-Bills if/when said module is removed from the game. I have about 9 seismic sensors purchased right now - that's 54,000,000 C-Bills that I accrued over the course of 180 matches assuming I made 300,000 C-Bills per match. Drop the C-Bills per match to 200,000/match and I spent time in 270 matches to earn those C-Bills.

Edit: wording/missing words because I just woke up and can't type properly.

Edited by 0111101, 21 July 2015 - 03:43 AM.

[Krigherren]

0111101, on 21 July 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

I am almost always in a mech equipped with ECM and I am 100% okay with the range nerf. At present, ECM is just too good to pass up. Even with a range nerf, it's just too good to pass up. I think the range change is an excellent first step, and that what Tennex has suggested is a great idea.

I am 100% on board with Tennex's excellent suggestions quoted above in this post.

If you ever remove a module from the game in order to make it a feature integral to all mechs (talking seismic sensor), PGI will NEED to refund every player's hard earned C-Bills if/when said module is removed from the game. I have about 9 seismic sensors purchased right now - that's 54,000,000 C-Bills that I accrued over the course of 180 matches assuming I made 300,000 C-Bills per match. Drop the C-Bills per match to 200,000/match and I spent time in 270 matches to earn those C-Bills.

Edit: wording/missing words because I just woke up and can't type properly.

Yep, that is a fantastic, lore-friendly solution. Tennex is on point. It would bring in a lot more diversity and effectively change how battles play out, me thinks. Implementing true information warfare would be a massive game-changer. I can see it now..

Setting my radar to inactive, sneaking about on a scouting run. Spotting a hostile mech in the distance, switching to active radar only to target him only long enough to get what information I can and his exact location. A medium mech, that's all I know. He must be carrying a GECM. Alert my allies "G6 inc med" before regrouping to engage.

This is how Living Legends plays out. It's quite disappointing that MWO is lacking hard in that regard.

Edited by Krigherren, 21 July 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Initium Thoth]

Looking forward to the 90M change.
I do agree that missile locks should occur within ECM field; albeit delayed by at most a couple of seconds and sans clustering bonus.

It's not clear to me by some posts whether indirect fire or "cold-fire" LRM volleys are being complained about.

Indirect fire should not be as accurate, even with clustering bonus. It would be nice if a spotter had to manually spot. But even so, there should be a reduced hit count.

"Cold-fire" should be left alone. If a 'Mech stands still, even in an ECM field with no targeting info available, cold-fired missiles should all hit.

[Blackhowl]

I just wanted to add a +1 for the concept of separating Visual Targeting from Target Lock. The absolute worst thing about giant range ECM, is that is prevents effective scouting. As an Assault Pilot, I need to have an idea of where the enemy is, in order to position myself effectively. With high ECM teams, I have no idea where they are until weapons fire is exchanged, even when there are lights that have visually sighted the other team.

Depending on the voice coms or in-game chat for scouting information is not a good solution. ECM in its 180 form effectively kills the scouting role, and I am happy to see it nerfed.

I think a bigger solution is needed though, and separating the ability to target from the target lock would be a good start. The ideas of having several different ECM options vs the 1 ECM to rule them all sounds good as well.

[Spleenslitta]

I use ECM Cute Fox regularly and i say this is a good thing. Fast ECM mechs will no longer have babysitting duty.
Let ECM only cover the mech that is equipped with it and i'd be totally fine with it.

Counter mode?.....let it have 90 meter range and that's fine by me.
Maybe BAP could have a longer ECM counter range since it weighs the same. That way BAP and ECM balance out somewhat.

[Divine Decoy]

As much as I dislike Hawken, they got their ECM/Decoy stuff right. ECM/decoys in that game make multiple blimps on the radar confusing enemies. If you implement a Seismic/passive radar system (like the old games/lore) good old Halo/Aliens Motion sensor style, you could then allow ECM to make false blimps.

BAP would eliminate those blimps, and a Command Module could finally be used to relay that info to other mechs in your lance...

There really shouldn't be any reason a mech can sneak up behind another mech in this game with out sensors picking it up. Scary Atlas is great fun and all (U rock B33F) but too much of it can ruin game

[Black Arachne]

2 Years and this is the best you can come up with....

[mongrel]

I don't post much. But pending the lrm apocalypse that is about to happen. I see the lrm 5 chain fire fan boys getting sweaty palms in anticipation. I want to confirm what all beats the guardian at the moment? Also what all stacks for bonuses? .Pease correct me if I am wrong.

Tag
Bap
Narc

All beat ecm in some form yes?

What all stacks... like does tag help Artemis IV? does narc? They shouldn't. I really hope they don't. In both cases they are entirely separate signals.

I still have lrms on occasion that seem to turn the corner & follow me thru the buildings I'm hiding behind. I have been running ecm with radar dep & many times the lrms just keep coming. I occasionally get flashbacks to close beta when LRMS were chasing me around the corner down the street & into the basement I was hiding in. Pease make any changes sane & not a buff for the lrm boat boys. I have horrid nightmares of the games where he who has most LRMs wins.

Edited by mongrel, 21 July 2015 - 08:42 PM.

[Mordynak]

This is a welcome change if you ask me.

This will force players to be a lot more tactical. As opposed to just standing in the middle of the team in an attempt to cover everyone.

[VXJaeger]

Because of enormous amouts of ECM in battlefield by new clanmechs, this must happen immediatelly.

[30ft SMURF]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

I am fine with an ECM range decrease, even down to 60meters. What I don't want you guys to get any funny ideas about is getting rid of it's ability to hide my dorito at long range, and interfering with lock on systems.

I use ECM FIRST to protect MYSELF from being highlighted, and missile locked. Sharing it with friends is just a bonus that I use out of curtousy; take that away before you take away my missile defense system.

What you meant to say is you like the game in its broken form and you'd rather them not take away your favorite piece of overpowered tech.

[30ft SMURF]

mongrel, on 21 July 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

I don't post much. But pending the lrm apocalypse that is about to happen. I see the lrm 5 chain fire fan boys getting sweaty palms in anticipation. I want to confirm what all beats the guardian at the moment? Also what all stacks for bonuses? .Pease correct me if I am wrong.

Tag
Bap
Narc

All beat ecm in some form yes?

What all stacks... like does tag help Artemis IV? does narc? They shouldn't. I really hope they don't. In both cases they are entirely separate signals.

I still have lrms on occasion that seem to turn the corner & follow me thru the buildings I'm hiding behind. I have been running ecm with radar dep & many times the lrms just keep coming. I occasionally get flashbacks to close beta when LRMS were chasing me around the corner down the street & into the basement I was hiding in. Pease make any changes sane & not a buff for the lrm boat boys. I have horrid nightmares of the games where he who has most LRMs wins.

Never do you hear the lrm haters talk about balance... they only remember a few bad days/months when lrms were OP and want the weapon system to be rendered useless. If any of those people would bother to read a book, a wiki page or nearly anything else related to battletech they might find out what ecm is actually supposed to do. Instead of joining the masses who cry about how they can't stop getting shot BY PPC'S, GAUSS, STREAKS, LRMS, and anything else you can think about to blame losing a match to... Perhaps reasonable suggestions should start winning out over the nerf everything approach that inevitably plagues mmo's. Ecm should never have needed this much of an overhaul, but at least they're moving in the right direction. Now if we get C3 and a use for command consoles other than some after maket targeting computer there might actually be hope for role warfare in the next decade... Hope they keep us entertained untill then...

Edited by 30ft SMURF, 22 July 2015 - 04:38 AM.

[Ngrasta]

To keep it simple: I like it.

A hidden advantage is for scout mechs. Being able to get closer without the tell-tale 'Low Signal' will be a marked advantage. Can't wait till it hits the test server.

[LORD ORION]

ECM = 60m bubble
Ecm Module level 1 = 80m
Ecm module level 2 = 100m (this will be a mech enhancement module that uses a slot)
Command console = +50% ecm radius = 90m or 120m or 150m

BAP = 90m
Bap + Adv Sensor 1 = 135
Bap + Adv Sensor 2 = 180m

New consumable module
EMP Blast1
All mechs within 180m lose sensors for 2 seconds (including yourself and allies)

Emp Blast 2
All mechs within 180m lose sensors for 4 seconds (including yourself and allies)

Needs to be on a shared cooldown with other EMP blasts on the team, for say 20 seconds? (like airstrike and arty strike, can't be fired all at the same time)

Thanks for reading

Edited by LORD ORION, 22 July 2015 - 05:36 AM.

[Negaman1971]

Pasquatch, on 15 July 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

The problem is that ECM mechs are everywhere and can group with impunity.

What he said! I know he wrote more, but at essence, that is what I see as the problem.

I mean, I kind of get it... you spend the money/MC/C-Bills on a shiny new mech that has ECM capability, you want to use it right? When I buy them, I do too. If I buy a clan one that has ECM, you better believe I save up or modify every single variant to have ECM so that I can make sure I'm protected and my team has a better chance of winning (yeah, I know it doesn't ensure it, but it does seem to help).

Still, it kind of makes you wonder why the mech designers wouldn't just include such a useful item on EVERY mech, right? Especially given how many millions of C-bills mechs cost, right?

It's because the damn things are supposed to be EXPENSIVE and RARE, that's why! I'm no ex-military guy, but just how freakin' prevalent is ECM supposed to be on the battlefield? I'm not talking about reality here, but in most GAMES I have played specialized ECM units were usually limited in availability in some way (either by price or availability).


So, in addition to the proposed nerfs, I have a more radical change in mind, limit the amount of ECM capable mechs in a match to one or two per side.

I can hear it now, "What??? Who is this a-****? He's crazy!!!"

Well, they may be right on all accounts, but limiting how many ECM capable mechs show up may help force at the least the clanners to stop retrofitting every variant with the ECM omnipods (myself included). I would also say jack up the prices--A LOT...but so many veterans have gobs of C-Bills that I don't know that would work.

Perhaps only make ECM available in group matches or (better yet) in CW? ECM isn't just cobbled together in your backyard with your dad's old Commando, right? I would argue that BAP and ECM both would be only available to larger mercenary organizations or faction armies. I guess you could say the same for most of the weapon systems and upgrades such as Endo Steel or XL engines as well.

[Felio]

ECM change sounds good, but if you nerf BAP it is still a net buff to ECM mechs because they'll be hit with far, far fewer streaks.

[C E Dwyer]

I think just scrapping E.C.M would be far the best option, what the range reduction does is making sure that, CW is going to be a clan only place.

with the 180 radius, it was possible with care to provide something like an ecm bubble for IS that was comparable to a clan one, without gimping the team to much with the Griffin and Cataphact, the phact being very situational with low slung weapons and the Griffin being fragile had to provide for its entire lance, but with care you could provide it, now with the introduction or the Artic cheater and the shadowcat, not only have they speed they have endurance of the XL, and flexibility of being able to move where they want at will, and still be under a very effective ecm shield as they will be able to move in pairs for better positions, they can hide more effectively. to the point of complete imbalance.

ECM in the last update and the sheer number of mechs it can be fitted to, has made it a game breaker, and reducing the radius is a patch up job that will only barely work in arena fighting.

this does nothing to stop CW becoming extremely unbalanced and this can only lead to even less people playing it

I'm saying this from a position of completely reversing my views as until the patch I was in favour of no changes what so ever

Edited by Cathy, 22 July 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Felio, on 22 July 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

ECM change sounds good, but if you nerf BAP it is still a net buff to ECM mechs because they'll be hit with far, far fewer streaks.

good