945 replies to this topic

[Ghost0r]

Good for a start, ecm has too much range. And i dont get all the whining about LRM. Already heavy dependant on team support (spotting, UAV, and so on). Only good for hindering enemy movement, not for dmg dealing, going into brawl again lrm-heavy opponent is pretty easy. Working as intended.

Edited by Ghost0r, 25 July 2015 - 05:22 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

Mcgral18, on 15 July 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

To be honest...it's barely a change. It's still the Magic Jesus Box that combines gECM, aECM, Null Sig and some fairy dust thrown in for good measure.


Either remove those magical properties, or give it proper consequences. Null Sig generates 1 Heat per second, which won't stop you from cooling entirely (unless you have 10 SHS) but will significantly hamper your ability to shoot while under the Magic Jesus Field.

To stop the 1H/s penalty, swap from Disrupt to Counter.



Changing the range really isn't significant, but I guess it's a start...I hope the next iterations have a tad more impact.

I was going to make a comment in response to the balancing.... but McGral couldn't have put it any better.

[RedEagle86]

In my opinion, and it's only an opinion, ECM should be limited to only the 'Mech it's carried on, not some sort of bubble-thing. Either that or make the bubble very, very small, like, 5-10 meters.

[Drunken Skull]

I have always been primarily a LRM Catapult Pilot, it's by far my favourite mech. I have struggled and persevered with ECM and for the main it hasn't been too much of a problem... in the past.

Recently I had to abandon my 3 Catapult 1 Raven CW drop deck and replace it with close range brawler builds, effectively mothballing my favourite mech, as countless times it just has no place in CW (I mean honestly, an ENTIRE clan team solely made up of ECM Hellbringers Shadowcats, and Cheetas, yeah sure... try landing a single LRM salvo on even one of them, meanwhile they are standing in the open blatantly puking laserfire at you with impunity...).

Many of you are complaining "dont nerf my favourite OP ECM God-mech", however you fail to realize that for many of us who like missiles, our favourite mechs, and our favourite weapons system, are already nerfed to the point of not even being viable weapons platforms to drop with in the current ECM Brawler-sniper-fest meta. We deserve to be part of the competition too!

As for AMS, it needs some serious work, firstly, it needs invisible projectiles, as it stands, having an AMS is like saying "here I am, come n get me" to the other team. I have often used an LRM luncher solely for spotting purposes, just firing it randomly to see what intercepts it and from where, almost as bad as the TAG for giving away your own position if you ask me.

I like the fact you are looking at making ECM balanced, but I think you are going the wrong way by simply giving it a range nerf, that will really change nothing, and at the same time just encourage more use of an already abused game mechanic which frankly breaks the game for not only 1/3 of the available weapons systems, but also a great number of mechs that use those weapons systems.

IMO you need to REMOVE ALL EFFECTS ECM HAS ON MISSILE HARD LOCKS (Honestly in canon they are Heat-guided, not radar guided anyways).

You need to fix AMS so that it is more effective at it's job, and less visible while it does it. AMS is supposed to be the counter for LRM, not ECM (I'm fairly certain I've made a post about this in the past, but alas it was ignored).

Edited by Drunken Skull, 25 July 2015 - 11:23 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Drunken Skull, on 25 July 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

IMO you need to REMOVE ALL EFFECTS ECM HAS ON MISSILE HARD LOCKS (Honestly in canon they are Heat-guided, not radar guided anyways).

You need to fix AMS so that it is more effective at it's job, and less visible while it does it. AMS is supposed to be the counter for LRM, not ECM (I'm fairly certain I've made a post about this in the past, but alas it was ignored).

Honestly, if they want to keep ECM balanced while still being stealthy? Or, in other words, useful without being OP? There's an extremely simple solution for that... Just make it deny target sharing. You can target any ECM 'Mech you see, and you can even lock your LRMs and Streaks on it - you just can't let other teammates see it, so they can't lock on to the target (since they can't even detect it) unless they too have line of sight.

Although I'd prefer a more in-depth re-balancing of the sensor mechanics overall, removing both the always-available target sharing and the "continue to track the target after it disappears behind cover" features completely, I also understand that by this stage they are both inherent components in the game's overall architecture. I'd be happy with ECM simply denying all forms of target sharing when equipped on a 'Mech. You could even keep the bubble, maybe even at its current 180m radius, so long as all 'Mechs in the bubble were targetable and lockable by any enemies with line-of-sight.

As for AMS effectivity, the posts saying AMS is or isn't a useful balance against LRMS are (thankfully) relatively few. AMS can be rebalanced as needed, duh. Starting with removing the tracers, as you said... It's an automatically aimed system. Why does it have tracer rounds? O_o

Edited by Bloodweaver, 25 July 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[ChewBaka]

Just going to put it out there once more that any substantial nerf to ECM will see most PUG games degenerate into LRMageddon. There needs to be a counter to LRMs, and since you can't seem to fix AMS, how about a nerf to LRMs when you nerf ECM?

For starters, do something to discourage boating. I can understand it being a support weapon, but boats? Their dmg also needs to be more scattered. I can't think of any reason why LRM5 & 10 should home in on the torso area and still be considered fair as they didn't have to aim. Only mech this happens on is the Nova, where LRMs from above can somehow hit the legs due to stupid hitbox design.

Make LRM ammo more likely to explode with the chance increasing explonentially with each ton. Heck, make LRM racks explosive like Gauss cannons too. 3 LRM racks? 3 potetial explosions on your machine. Why not? This will make people think about overloading their mechs and at least carry other weapons too. Also, I believe the 'no shared targetting' without C3 makes sense.

You're not going to attract many new players, not especially on Steam, when the majority of the games that newbies participate in consists of big robots flinging LRMs at each other, but hey, whatever...listen to those who think LRMs so very important and need a role. Watch your player base stay stagnant if that's what you want.

Yes yes, LRMs have a role in Battletech. Unfortunately, this is an online game and we've already strayed far from lore.

My last 2 games had a HBK-4J doing 600+ dmg despite the prevalence of ECM on the team, and yet they whine about ECM being broken. Sheesh.

[Drunken Skull]

Charlie Pohr, on 26 July 2015 - 12:36 AM, said:

Just going to put it out there once more that any substantial nerf to ECM will see most PUG games degenerate into LRMageddon. There needs to be a counter to LRMs, and since you can't seem to fix AMS, how about a nerf to LRMs when you nerf ECM?

For starters, do something to discourage boating. I can understand it being a support weapon, but boats? Their dmg also needs to be more scattered. I can't think of any reason why LRM5 & 10 should home in on the torso area and still be considered fair as they didn't have to aim. Only mech this happens on is the Nova, where LRMs from above can somehow hit the legs due to stupid hitbox design.

Make LRM ammo more likely to explode with the chance increasing explonentially with each ton. Heck, make LRM racks explosive like Gauss cannons too. 3 LRM racks? 3 potetial explosions on your machine. Why not? This will make people think about overloading their mechs and at least carry other weapons too. Also, I believe the 'no shared targetting' without C3 makes sense.

You're not going to attract many new players, not especially on Steam, when the majority of the games that newbies participate in consists of big robots flinging LRMs at each other, but hey, whatever...listen to those who think LRMs so very important and need a role. Watch your player base stay stagnant if that's what you want.

Yes yes, LRMs have a role in Battletech. Unfortunately, this is an online game and we've already strayed far from lore.

My last 2 games had a HBK-4J doing 600+ dmg despite the prevalence of ECM on the team, and yet they whine about ECM being broken. Sheesh.

Wow, you REALLY HATE LRM, don't you?
As for the Racks being explosive, I thought this was already the case. AFAIK It's the reason the Catapult has Doors on it's launchers, effectively, when the launcher has it's it's door open, it has it's internal structure directly exposed, bypassing any armour in that section of the mech.

As for the score of the Hbk, I think you will find that this is due to the QUIRKS Applied to that mech, and has nothing to do with the performance of LRM in general.

I find most of what you say to be simply scare-mongering and psychological warfare, using th catch-phraze "LURMAGEDDON!!! Nobody will play!!!" as your proverbial battle-axe.

[PlzDie]

ECM should do what it is suppose to do, block BAP, NARC, cutting off C3 units and have the abilty to counter other ECM as well as create ghost targets on enemy radar.

LRM's should not get to lock on targets outside of LOS without a C3 network, which in this timeline only extends to a single lance, 1 C3 master and 3 slaves. This would basicaly stop LRM boating in Pub Q's, LOS targeting will kill any idea of boating LRM's without decent backup weapons cause no LRM boat will stand long against a direct fire mech.

[Drunken Skull]

Duppie, on 26 July 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

LRM's should not get to lock on targets outside of LOS without a C3 network, which in this timeline only extends to a single lance, 1 C3 master and 3 slaves.

This would just be misuse of another piece of technology not quite yet implemented, as it has already been explained earlier, C3 Network is a Targeting Buff system, it is not in fact responsible for indirect locks at all.

I think a more feasible solution would be to drastically increase the spread of indirect fire LRM so that fewer missiles have a direct hit, essentially turning it into a low-damage Area-Of-Effect weapon when used on an indirect target.

A C3 Network could then be used to re-buff indirect fire to be more accurate, as well as honing long range fire, perhapse by providing the slaves with a target lead for ppc and AC, etc...

Edited by Drunken Skull, 26 July 2015 - 01:48 AM.

[TarkaTarquol]

Oh wow. I was unaware that the ECM 180m distance was a Radius. I thought the bubble was 180m Diameter. I guess with the new numbers that'd be true, and I am very much okay with that.

[PlzDie]

I stand corrected regarding C3.

[Nyuuu]

Drunken Skull, on 26 July 2015 - 01:04 AM, said:

Wow, you REALLY HATE LRM, don't you?
As for the Racks being explosive, I thought this was already the case. AFAIK It's the reason the Catapult has Doors on it's launchers, effectively, when the launcher has it's it's door open, it has it's internal structure directly exposed, bypassing any armour in that section of the mech.

You don't have the slightest idea how the game mechanics mechanics work but are still here whining about how your no skill auto aimbot doesn't get excellent results while even getting likes.

God it takes me 5 minutes each week to remind me why I am avoiding the forum....

Edited by Nyuuu, 26 July 2015 - 05:42 AM.

[Gorgo7]

Nyuuu, on 26 July 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

You don't have the slightest idea how the game mechanics mechanics work but are still here whining about how your no skill auto aimbot doesn't get excellent results while even getting likes.

God it takes me 5 minutes each week to remind me why I am avoiding the forum....

It seems that you have no idea how to avoid the forum at all...and I wish you would.

[Gremlich Johns]

Divine Decoy, on 21 July 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

As much as I dislike Hawken, they got their ECM/Decoy stuff right. ECM/decoys in that game make multiple blimps on the radar confusing enemies. If you implement a Seismic/passive radar system (like the old games/lore) good old Halo/Aliens Motion sensor style, you could then allow ECM to make false blimps.

BAP would eliminate those blimps, and a Command Module could finally be used to relay that info to other mechs in your lance...

There really shouldn't be any reason a mech can sneak up behind another mech in this game with out sensors picking it up. Scary Atlas is great fun and all (U rock B33F) but too much of it can ruin game

This is a form of ECCM, which PGI's version does not have.

What PGI's system reflects is a form of command, control communications, intelligence and interoperability. C⁴I² and it does it poorly. The interoperability bit is the sharing of an individual platforms data, allowing others to see its targets.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 26 July 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[Sovery_Simple]

Eh, as long as players can still loadout to support their team with coverage. (looking at kitfox and cicada especially) Either from quirks, or from angel availability (if that gets added.) It would be annoying to lose the "group benefit" aspect of the system, just because others want to abuse it as a personal "upgraded ams system." Which actually is exactly what is happening, isn't it?

Though it's imperative that if a mech invests the tons in that "potential" new system, it shouldn't get cancelled out by a single bap mech waddling by on the other side of 250m+ of solid cover. So, yes, please reduce bap range with this change, or introduce the change that bap mechs, within their effective range, can ignore ecm, but only for themselves, and not cancel out the entire package of the ecm carrier (and thus reveal it to their allies.)

Also: going to hilarious hearing people cry for the ecm coverage, then cry if the ecm mech happens to bump them (especially if it's down to 60m, so you really have to hump to try and cover an ally), then cry even more when they waddle outside of the 60m radius again. Downside is going to be having their mech do a death-roll down a hillside when they get themselves killed from lrms.

Going to be interesting to see if we can get an actual role warfare system going around information gathering or not, since that was my intended role (and why I used ECM to shield my team as best I could), or if they just want to kill people from behind cover at 800m+ with lrms and a generous helping of impunity. Time will tell~

(Give us a whole system, Russ!)



-----2nd post

Gryphorim, on 15 July 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

Personally I'd have liked an ACTIVE/PASSIVE Sensors toggle, with ECM and BAP applying buffs/debuffs to that mechanic. This way, mechs without ECM have options to reduce their visibility also.

That being said, a reduction in ECM radius is a good first step.

Also completely agree with Tennex.

Only problem I could see with an active/passive, is that passive would have to be either a tiny buff, or have some serious downsides to using it. Such as: no target lockon info, no shared target feeds, etc. Otherwise it'll be a null-choice and people will almost always use passive because active has no real benefit compared to "hey, free ecm for everyone " (probably not -that- strong, but a step towards it none-the-less.)

Could be interesting if they put in a whole infomation system like we were promised, though! (also should probably make UAV's into an item carried on the mech, with a hard limit, if this system comes into play.)

Edited by Whoops, 26 July 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[Thrudvangar]

oops.. this change is already live?

doesn't changes anything... i just even didn't recognized it..-.

[Lupin]

Bloody hell changes to ECM only a few years late guy's.

But look forward to it.

[Boaz Roshak]

We need a way to SEE that a leg is missing much like how we can see the arms are gone.

[Vlad Striker]

ECM bubble delenda est.

[Oplix]

Now I am speaking from a purely CW standpoint here but I don't think this ECM change means much and might even hurt IS more then Clans.

Clans now have a very good light mech which is on par with the IS firestarter 5 tons lighter and has ECM to boot.

In CW clan 12 mans are now bringing 3 waves of ECM mechs (2x HBR, 1 ACH) with the last 12 mechs being Timber Wolfs (basically 8 ECM mechs per wave)

with this many ECM mechs the effective ECM range tweak really does nothing because they have so much ECM on their side and hurts IS more because all their ECM mechs are tier 1 where our ECM mechs are far worse.

You say well IS could bring more ECM but

D-DC - Too Heavy for CW decks and short range
2N - Our only high end ECM mech but its to short range
0XP - Low slung arms too short range
3L - No Jump Jets

All the clan ECM mechs are long range mechs so our ECM mechs are basically useless because they are all short range mechs which kinda kills ECM in its own way. IS ECM mechs are all "tier 2" or much lower where all clan ECM mechs are tier 1.

When this happens there is no way to effectively target the other team and it just makes the already better clan mechs even harder to fight.

The clans have way to many and far superior ECM mechs.