157 replies to this topic

[nitra]

you gotta love this.

no damage applied for the first half of the lasers duration and what does get applied is minuscule.

[Mcgral18]

nitra, on 09 August 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

you gotta love this.

no damage applied for the first half of the lasers duration and what does get applied is minuscule.

Only thing I can think of...what was your ping? F9 displays it now, which helps with these discussions.


Doesn't have the target ping, of course. I've noticed lots of the hitting but no red until a few seconds afterwards when playing Oceanic (270ish ping).

28 damage across 2 hitboxes wouldn't kill or necessarily remove components, but the paperdoll would be needed to confirm just how much damage (yours cut off with shutdown). Should be crimson red at that point. RT has 21 structure+x rear armour. CT has 20IS, but not enough burn for that.

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 August 2015 - 11:57 PM.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 09 August 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

MadStats Google Chrome plug in. Makes sorting it easier. https://chrome.googl...cdekpdnidcoloon

Thanks for that. I never knew that I owned a mech which does more damage per match than my Dakka Whale. Gonna look at the 3S with even more awe.

[Aresye]

nitra, on 09 August 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

you gotta love this.

no damage applied for the first half of the lasers duration and what does get applied is minuscule.

You have 28 damage total in your alpha.

The first 1/3 of the damage hits the rear CT, so that's ~ 10 damage being delivered there.
The other 2/3 hits the rear RT, and stays for the rest of the burn, so that's ~ 18 damage there.

The CT already had yellow internals with no armor, and was still flashing as you shut down. With 20 internal structure, it will turn yellow as soon as it hits 19, so it likely had almost all of its internal CT armor save for 1-2 points, in which the 10 damage you delivered there likely put it just above the red.

The RT is the tricky one. It still has armor, but it's red, so likely only 1-2 points max of armor remaining. The internal structure of 21 points hadn't been touched yet. You definitely focused the remaining 2/3 of your burn on that rear RT, which would give you around 18 damage. As you shut down the paper doll was still updating.

Without further video or screenshot to show the paperdoll after you powered back up, it's impossible to tell. You didn't do enough damage to fully rip off that side torso though. Obviously these are all estimates, but from what we have, there are a few facts we can devolve from the video:

1. You hit the rear CT first.
2. You hit the rear RT second.
3. The rear RT internal structure was 100% healthy at a full 21 points.
4. The paper doll did not finish updating prior to shutting down.

Obviously in real time, this would have looked like complete BS, but with the frame by frame analysis in the recorded video, along with knowing the armor values of the mech, and your damage potential, it cannot definitively prove that there was anything wrong happening.

*Edit: After another rewatch, it appears you hit the rear LT just briefly right on the first hit, so you likely lost another 1-2 points of damage there.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 09 August 2015 - 11:50 PM.

[nitra]

Mcgral18, on 09 August 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

Only thing I can think of...what was your ping? F9 displays it now, which helps with these discussions.


Doesn't have the target ping, of course. I've noticed lots of the hitting but no red until a few seconds afterwards when playing Oceanic (270ish ping).

28 damage across 2 hitboxes wouldn't kill or necessarily remove components, but the paperdoll would be needed to confirm just how much damage (your cut off with shutdown). Should be crimson red at that point. RT has 21 structure+x rear armour. CT has 20IS, but not enough burn for that.

chased that joker around for over a minute placing over 200 damage on him all i manged to do was blow off a arm before getting gaused to the torso and killed instantly, granted i was cored but his back was wide open and i was hammering it but nope the damage just dose not apply, or it spreads like butter over a hot muffin.

ill post the whole skirmish here in a few minutes.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

i rly hope, it will be nerfed. Im tired of seeing every match, last standing mech is Ach, and his armor survives constant firing from 5 mechs, get stripped by 1%. Even ATLAS dont have this ability and should.

[Lily from animove]

well, something seems to be not correct, but its not more broken than the FS9's. So its not a ACH speciality here. And it is still not as bad as the hitreg we had soem month ago where FS9's and ravens were invincable.

[Lily from animove]

Aresye Kerensky, on 09 August 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

You have 28 damage total in your alpha.

The first 1/3 of the damage hits the rear CT, so that's ~ 10 damage being delivered there.
The other 2/3 hits the rear RT, and stays for the rest of the burn, so that's ~ 18 damage there.

The CT already had yellow internals with no armor, and was still flashing as you shut down. With 20 internal structure, it will turn yellow as soon as it hits 19, so it likely had almost all of its internal CT armor save for 1-2 points, in which the 10 damage you delivered there likely put it just above the red.

The RT is the tricky one. It still has armor, but it's red, so likely only 1-2 points max of armor remaining. The internal structure of 21 points hadn't been touched yet. You definitely focused the remaining 2/3 of your burn on that rear RT, which would give you around 18 damage. As you shut down the paper doll was still updating.

Without further video or screenshot to show the paperdoll after you powered back up, it's impossible to tell. You didn't do enough damage to fully rip off that side torso though. Obviously these are all estimates, but from what we have, there are a few facts we can devolve from the video:

1. You hit the rear CT first.
2. You hit the rear RT second.
3. The rear RT internal structure was 100% healthy at a full 21 points.
4. The paper doll did not finish updating prior to shutting down.

Obviously in real time, this would have looked like complete BS, but with the frame by frame analysis in the recorded video, along with knowing the armor values of the mech, and your damage potential, it cannot definitively prove that there was anything wrong happening.

*Edit: After another rewatch, it appears you hit the rear LT just briefly right on the first hit, so you likely lost another 1-2 points of damage there.

very much this, many people have a bad habit of "knowing what they did" while in relaity it happened not the way they thought it happaned. recording the stuff and watching it in slower frameates cna give you very often a good review of what really happened.

[nitra]

Lily from animove, on 10 August 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

very much this, many people have a bad habit of "knowing what they did" while in relaity it happened not the way they thought it happaned. recording the stuff and watching it in slower frameates cna give you very often a good review of what really happened.

yeah i love watching the vids in slow mo ... but this particular fight just set me off partly due to struggling in the x5, where as i used to not have that problem .

watching the vid there is a lot of spreading going on i wonder if it would have been different with pulse lasers. still feel that he should have been dead .

Edited by nitra, 10 August 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[nitra]

full skirmish vid

Spoiler

Edited by nitra, 10 August 2015 - 12:32 AM.

[Sarlic]

That's a great video. Nice slow mo's.

1:23 you fired a full alpha in it's back. That alpha should have gotten him on a orange open rear.

Edited by Sarlic, 10 August 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Oh yea, she broken lol.

Hopefully it will be addressed soon (with the Firestarter) soon.

[lshtaria]

I have named one of my Arctic Cheetahs IDDQD.

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what needs tweaking on the ACH hitboxes. If you look at it from the front it has a very slim profile, there really isn't a lot of surface area to be hitting. Couple that with torso twisting, HSR and lag and you have the perfect damage spreader. I finished one match with no armour left and a total of 21% health which is the lowest I've had so far. For the most part it's just damn hard to focus damage onto a single component. And of course don't forget Clan XL engine too.

Anyway, obligatory e-peen pics from Pugland coming up.

Edited by Kyocera, 10 August 2015 - 02:15 AM.

[Dino Might]

That's the thing - there might be some hitbox brokenness, but I think it's more due to the size, speed, and geometry. The hitboxes may be working exactly as they should, because the thing is about the aspect of a spider, and tanky like one.

The glaring problem that is easy for everyone to objectively see is that it just has way too much good going for it. But, just like all the Timby pilots that claimed their mech was fair and balanced, we have the Cheeto pilots saying the same, despite it being right in front of our eyes that the thing is ridiculously favored.

We said it was going to be based on paper stats, and the call was to see how it ended up in game, because paper stats don't always pan out. Well, here, they obviously did, so we've, "let it play out and see how it goes," and it goes, "OP OP OP."

Look - I love seeing the light queue at more than 5%, but not at the cost of putting out another light that is so much better than the rest. You increase the light queue, but destroy its diversity and fun, because now any light that isn't a FS9 or ACH is just prey for those two. At least with FS9s, I don't have to worry about streaks...

The ACH is the Timberwolf of the lights, and it needs some drawbacks relative to the others in its class.

[Charronn]

I killed one earlier in my FS S.Chased it for a good minute,man that thing takes some killing.It ended up getting legged and still took a good battering.Can take way more punishment than a FS that's for sure.
They need to even it up by having an ecm Firestarter variant .

Edited by Charronn, 10 August 2015 - 03:34 AM.

[lshtaria]

Dino Might, on 10 August 2015 - 03:09 AM, said:

That's the thing - there might be some hitbox brokenness, but I think it's more due to the size, speed, and geometry. The hitboxes may be working exactly as they should, because the thing is about the aspect of a spider, and tanky like one.

The glaring problem that is easy for everyone to objectively see is that it just has way too much good going for it. But, just like all the Timby pilots that claimed their mech was fair and balanced, we have the Cheeto pilots saying the same, despite it being right in front of our eyes that the thing is ridiculously favored.

We said it was going to be based on paper stats, and the call was to see how it ended up in game, because paper stats don't always pan out. Well, here, they obviously did, so we've, "let it play out and see how it goes," and it goes, "OP OP OP."

Look - I love seeing the light queue at more than 5%, but not at the cost of putting out another light that is so much better than the rest. You increase the light queue, but destroy its diversity and fun, because now any light that isn't a FS9 or ACH is just prey for those two. At least with FS9s, I don't have to worry about streaks...

The ACH is the Timberwolf of the lights, and it needs some drawbacks relative to the others in its class.

The fact that it gets some quirks, albeit small, makes the situation even worse. The 10% heat reduction and 5% duration reduction when running the C pods with CSPL does make a difference. For a start, all the ACH quirks should just be deleted.

I love my clan mechs, I love my Timberwolves and now I love my Cheetahs. However that doesn't stop me from admitting the Cheetahs are OP.

[Diomed]

Light mechs seem really out of control right now, feels like the bad old days of the Raven 3L with lag-shields.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Diomed, on 10 August 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

Light mechs seem really out of control right now, feels like the bad old days of the Raven 3L with lag-shields.

Its ok, they only swap atlas toughness with ach. they put it on reverse, and it will be fine again. Dont worry.

[FupDup]

Using personal stats to indicate mech effectiveness is a bit silly, because...



So, if we take stats to be an objective representation of mech effectiveness (they're not, but let's pretend for a second), this leads to the following conclusions:

1. The SCR-C is the most powerful mech in the game, even more powerful than the Dire Wolf.

2. The Kit Fox and Adder are both superior to the Arctic Cheetah (5.31 and 5.26 KDR, vs only 4.50 for the ACH-A). Also notice the Adder Prime's average damage per match of 470, vs the 378 of the Arctic Cheetah A.

3. The Summoner is superior to both the Hellbringer-B and the Timberwolf-Prime.

4. If I had a bigger screenshot, I could make even more bogus conclusions.



TL;DR: Personal stats are subjective, not objective. They are influenced by too many variables to be used as an objective measure of mech effectiveness.


In this particular situation, one of the issues is that new-mech stats are almost always higher than mechs you've had for a long time. After you've played a lot of matches with a mech, its damage and kills per match start to "normalize" to a lower value than what you might have initially had.

For example, I think that one of my Hellbringers actually had a KDR of 11-13 for a very brief time while grinding them, before diving down to something more realistic.

Edited by FupDup, 10 August 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

FupDup, on 10 August 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

1. The SCR-C is the most powerful mech in the game, even more powerful than the Dire Wolf.

I don't know man, this seems pretty spot-on

Hahaha
But yeah, the personal stats are a terrible way to go by.
Take me for example, my highest K/D is in the Trial Trebuchet. (Not even kidding)
Sure, i've only been in it for like 10 matches, but still.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 10 August 2015 - 06:21 AM.