259 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Ultimatum X, on 12 August 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

Yeah, I know, it's mind-boggling that these little crap stains have the AUDACITY to actually be functional threats on the battlefield that don't evaporate when you sneeze on them.




Seriously, shoot the legs. Stop complaining.

The problem is this, the firestarter and spider are good examples of what a good effective light mech should be, both are VERY effective threats when handled by an experienced light pilot. The Arctic Cheetah does not need to be better in every way than the other two best light mechs, it's ridiculous.

It's not a shoot legs stop complaining issue, I kill arctic cheetahs all the time and I know how to leg them. It's just a balancing issue. The arctic cheetah gets all of the best qualities of all the other light mechs in the game, and then has a lagshield to boot.

I get the impression that besides the people who just get grouchy about complaints in general (because I know there are plenty of those people), most people who complain about the prospect of toning down the Cheetah are people who finally have success in a light mech where they haven't before. If this is the case for you I'm sorry light mechs aren't your natural strength, they aren't mine either, but it's not good for balance to keep what is essentially a light mech easy mode in the game.

[1453 R]

Khobai, on 12 August 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

ach is definitely broken

not just because of the hitboxes but also because it makes other lights like the kitfox and mist lynx even more obsolete

the ach needs a hitbox fix and a ton of negative quirks to balance it out.

Should the Firestarter and the Jenner also get a ton of negative quirks, so that the Spider is relevant?

The Mist Lynx needs help. it doesn't need Piranha to gut-punch the Cheetah. if the Lynx didn't exist nobody would bat an eye over the Cheetah. Remember - the Cheetah was specifically and purposefully designed to replace the aging, increasingly ineffective Mist Lynx design in Clan toumans. If you build something with the specific objective of obsoleting an older piece of tech, you shouldn't be surprised if the older piece of tech ends up obsolete as a result.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I Zeratul I, on 12 August 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Not seeing a difference between arctic cheetahs and firestarters.

Timberwolves and clan mechs seemed OP when good pilots were still playing them. Now that mostly noobs are using timberwolves no one has any reason to fear timberwolves anymore.

I think the good pilots have moved on to playing arctic cheetahs and shadowcats. Its their skill level that makes the mechs seem OP. An arctic cheetah isn't much more than a firestarter with a massively over-exaggerated reputation.

...and ECM : p

[FupDup]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 12 August 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

The problem is this, the firestarter and spider are good examples of what a good effective light mech should be...

The Spider is effective? Lol?

Spiders have a massive lack of firepower that makes them crappy as light mechs. The only presentable variant is the 5D, which is because it has the most energy hardpoints (still only 3, lol) and ECM. They've been outclassed since the first day they were released a few years ago.

[Master Pain]

I hit it with 3 alpha strikes from my 7mpls thunderbolt to its ct when he shut down twice. i was less than 100m away all 3 shots. I did 126 damage to the ct of a stationary target. when he powered up and ran off his armor had gone from yellow to orange. The total health of a ach ct is 40 armor front and back, 20 internal for a total of 60 hitpoints. I did enough damage to destroy 2 arctic cheetahs and i didnt even punch through the armor of 1. It seems just a little broke to me....

[Khobai]

Quote

The Spider is effective? Lol?

It was when it had the same hitbox issues as the ACH

they were damn annoying to kill

but now theyre a joke

[Jack Shayu Walker]

FupDup, on 12 August 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

The Spider is effective? Lol?

Spiders have a massive lack of firepower that makes them crappy as light mechs. The only presentable variant is the 5D, which is because it has the most energy hardpoints (still only 3, lol) and ECM. They've been outclassed since the first day they were released a few years ago.

Spiders are definitely a different playstyle, but they're quite common from what I can tell (i don't actually run them tbh, I just assume they're good by their popularity; still my point remains...) My problem with the cheetah is that it has firestarter firepower, wicked awesome hitboxes, clan XL, high weapon mounts, and ECM, all with no compromises. I don't hate the thing because I can't kill it, I hate it because what's the point of running anything else as a light pilot?

[FupDup]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 12 August 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Spiders are definitely a different playstyle, but they're quite common from what I can tell (i don't actually run them tbh, I just assume they're good by their popularity; still my point remains...) My problem with the cheetah is that it has firestarter firepower, wicked awesome hitboxes, clan XL, high weapon mounts, and ECM, all with no compromises. I don't hate the thing because I can't kill it, I hate it because what's the point of running anything else as a light pilot?

People thought the same thing when the Shadow Hawk dominated the IS medium lineup for quite a few months until the Clan release...the reason to not use the Shad was because heavies and assaults were still often better than the best medium. However, very few people asked for the Shawk to be nerfed, and the few that did were usually shunned in short order.

The Arctic Chinchilla is in a similar position; Its weakness is that it's not a SCR, TBR, HBR, CBN, DWF, TDR, etc.

Edited by FupDup, 12 August 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

1453 R, on 12 August 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Should the Firestarter and the Jenner also get a ton of negative quirks, so that the Spider is relevant?

The Mist Lynx needs help. it doesn't need Piranha to gut-punch the Cheetah. if the Lynx didn't exist nobody would bat an eye over the Cheetah. Remember - the Cheetah was specifically and purposefully designed to replace the aging, increasingly ineffective Mist Lynx design in Clan toumans. If you build something with the specific objective of obsoleting an older piece of tech, you shouldn't be surprised if the older piece of tech ends up obsolete as a result.

The problem is that in a multiplayer game, a new mech shouldn't obsolete every other mech in its weight class.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

FupDup, on 12 August 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

The Spider is effective? Lol?

Spiders have a massive lack of firepower that makes them crappy as light mechs. The only presentable variant is the 5D, which is because it has the most energy hardpoints (still only 3, lol) and ECM. They've been outclassed since the first day they were released a few years ago.

I just finished mastering my 5D about a month ago.

I killed a ton of people and racked up some decent damage. I can't even count how many times I flanked and put multiple alphas into peoples rear torsos. Anything is viable if used properly, afaik.

[TercieI]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 12 August 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The problem is that in a multiplayer game, a new mech shouldn't obsolete every other mech in its weight class.

It really, really doesn't. The FS9 is equal at least, the RVNs still have a place and...well, the state of lights is sorry indeed, but that's because more need to come up, not shove down the few useful ones.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

FupDup, on 12 August 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

People thought the same thing when the Shadow Hawk dominated the IS medium lineup for quite a few months until the Clan release...the reason to not use the Shad was because heavies and assaults were still often better than the best medium. However, very few people asked for the Shawk to be nerfed, and the few that did were usually shunned in short order.

The Arctic Chinchilla is in a similar position; Its weakness is that it's not a SCR, TBR, HBR, CBN, DWF, TDR, etc.

The Shawk has all of it's weapons in one shoulder, and it's the size of a heavy mech. I must confess, I wasn't around for the Phoenix pack, but it's not hard to come up with compromises the Shawk makes. While some may argue that they aren't significant enough I actually can't think of a single thing that the Cheetah has to make a compromise on.

[FupDup]

Terciel1976, on 12 August 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

It really, really doesn't. The FS9 is equal at least, the RVNs still have a place and...well, the state of lights is sorry indeed, but that's because more need to come up, not shove down the few useful ones.

I haven't really used the Fuegostarters or Nevermores, but what I can deduce from on-paper stats is the following...

FS9: Heat sustainability quirks and IS pewpews give it a short range brawl edge over the ACH, while the ACH is way better at mid-long range due to Clan pewpews and high torso mounts.

RVN: Huginn is still the short-range DPS king, the 2X seems to have a bit more firepower in the midrange laser-vomit bracket, the 3L is still the annoying sniper troll it always has been.


I think the Arctic Chinook has the "overall" edge due to its far greater versatility (can do any role decently), but it's not OP compared to bigger robbits that rule the game with an iron hand actuator.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Terciel1976, on 12 August 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

It really, really doesn't. The FS9 is equal at least, the RVNs still have a place and...well, the state of lights is sorry indeed, but that's because more need to come up, not shove down the few useful ones.

Ah yes I forgot about the raven, yeah they have a happy niche that nothing else really tries to touch, so you're right there. Firestarters don't get the Jesus Box though, and the cheetah can run it and still bring firestarter levels of firepower.

[FupDup]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 12 August 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

The Shawk has all of it's weapons in one shoulder, and it's the size of a heavy mech. I must confess, I wasn't around for the Phoenix pack, but it's not hard to come up with compromises the Shawk makes. While some may argue that they aren't significant enough I actually can't think of a single thing that the Cheetah has to make a compromise on.

To give you a preview of the Shadow Hawk during its glory days, it was THE undisputed king of the mediums. If you used a medium, it was GONNA be a Shadow Hawk unless you wanted a "challenge." It had the best hitboxes or at least tied for the best, had the ability to pack a strong punch up close and far away, had JJs, and could go as fast or slow as you wanted it to. Compared to other medium mechs, it didn't have to sacrifice anything really. Its only sacrifice was the fact that it weighed in at a mere 55 tons instead of 65+ tons.

In the future we got the TBR, which proved to be the "Shadow Hawk of the heavy class." Then the HBR and CBN came along as slightly lesser Shawks of the heavy class. The new and shiny Arctic Chalupa is, for all intents and purposes, the Shadow Hawk of the light class.

The only class that lacks a Shadow-Hawk-like mech is the assault class...maybe if we ever get the Blood Asp or Mad Cat Mk II the circle will be complete...

Edited by FupDup, 12 August 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Koniks]

FupDup, on 12 August 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

I haven't really used the Fuegostarters or Nevermores, but what I can deduce from on-paper stats is the following...

FS9: Heat sustainability quirks and IS pewpews give it a short range brawl edge over the ACH, while the ACH is way better at mid-long range due to Clan pewpews and high torso mounts.

RVN: Huginn is still the short-range DPS king, the 2X seems to have a bit more firepower in the midrange laser-vomit bracket, the 3L is still the annoying sniper troll it always has been.


I think the Arctic Chinook has the "overall" edge due to its far greater versatility (can do any role decently), but it's not OP compared to bigger robbits that rule the game with an iron hand actuator.

The only real advantage the FS9s have is beam duration. And the FS9-S has a range advantage over the ERSL ACH.

[Mystere]

I Zeratul I, on 12 August 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Patience is a virtue here.

Not with the quality of the player base MWO has.

[Accused]

One time an arctic cheetah ran into our group. I think it was River City near the citadel structure. The sun had set so there were shadows everywhere. Anyways this arctic cheetah runs up to us, slaps the atlas on the ass then turns to me and says "deal with it" before causally JJ away into the river. I swear I saw him flip me the bird too.

I don't know why PGI doesn't nerf such a badass mech when all their other mechs are clearly beta.

Edited by Accused, 12 August 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[1453 R]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 12 August 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The problem is that in a multiplayer game, a new mech shouldn't obsolete every other mech in its weight class.

It doesn't.

The Firestarter has greater firepower/heat efficiency due to its dynamic structuring, the Raven holds its own as a distance unit, and the Kit Fox is still semicompetitive as a gunboat carrying unusually heavy armaments and dense defensive subsystems. Even the Jenner still has a niche with superior ground mobility, maximum heat efficiency and the advantage of familiarity. A lot of lights are pretty objectively crap in MWO's system. That's not the fault of the handful of lights that aren't crap. The Cheetah is very good, yes, but it does not stand head and shoulders over its entire weight class the way people are claiming.

Or that some people, including myself, were honestly expecting. I'll admit, I thought Piranha'd lost their minds when they announced the Cheetah, but having now gotten it and played it? It's not nearly so insane as I thought it would be. Seven tons of payload (w/ECM) just isn't a lot to work with, even for Clan gear. You can do some good stuff with it, certainly - the 2x cERML/4xcERSL design is my personal favorite - but it just can't compare to Firestarters with four extra tons of gear space, or Jenners that match your payload except with a full set of TruDubs and two extra sinks besides and ten extra klicks on you.

The Cheetah is good. It has its pros over other lights. But it has not obsoleted the rest of the weight class by any means.

[Roadkill]

Master Pain, on 12 August 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

I hit it with 3 alpha strikes from my 7mpls thunderbolt to its ct when he shut down twice. i was less than 100m away all 3 shots. I did 126 damage to the ct of a stationary target. when he powered up and ran off his armor had gone from yellow to orange. The total health of a ach ct is 40 armor front and back, 20 internal for a total of 60 hitpoints. I did enough damage to destroy 2 arctic cheetahs and i didnt even punch through the armor of 1. It seems just a little broke to me....

I hit a shutdown (overheated) Stalker with no armor and red internals with 4 alpha strikes. All 4 caused the paper doll to flash, but only the 1st and 4th did any damage. Any one of the alpha strikes should have/could have killed the Stalker, but only the 4th one registered enough damage to do it.

It's not the ACH. It's MWO in general. People just don't notice it as often when it happens vs a larger Mech because they're not expecting the Mech to die on one shot.