230 replies to this topic

[Trev Firestorm]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 August 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Ghost heat was on the Ac/2 well before they replaced it because they cant do math. And it wasnt put there to hurt the ac/2 it was put there (direct quote from Twitter) "To reduce pinpoint damage"

No, their reasoning for adding it on the AC/2 (as opposed to leaving the AC/2 alone since they weren't even linking GH between weapons at first) when ghost heat first went in was because of the chain-machine gunning, to which I pointed out that fast fire with just 2 of the damn things firing together caused exponential penalties and manual chained was even worse. The triple ac/2 dragon was one of my favorite (but basically joke) mechs in beta but was actually viable on jagers and derpy on cataphracts so I was furious when that patch hit (I had just bought the JM6-DD and didn't even get a chance to roll out the improved AC/2 machinegun it enabled). After long arguments back and forth all that came out of it was a longer cooldown on the AC/2 so it wouldn't trigger ghost heat once you get fast fire with 2 equipped.



Edit: Back on topic: Macro software comes built into gaming mouse software, PGI doesn't have a problem with them, and finally nothing done with a macro cannot also be done (fairly easily) without. Macros do NOT limit UACs to only a non-jam fire rate because there is no such fire rate. So where is the cheating exactly, what is unfair here? Nowhere and nothing.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 17 August 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[mogs01gt]

DjPush, on 15 August 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

I know I am going to catch flack for this because macros are allowed in MWO. However, to me it is in the same catagory as a wall hack or aimbot. A program outside of MWO that allows players to play the game at a level not possible by any means other than a computer. A computer program is firing the weapon for you while all you do is hold the button down.

Here is an example:



Am I out of line with these feelings towards macros? I refuse to use them because I think it's fighting dirty. What do you guys think?

I agree, its cheating!

[Odium]

PGI probably doesn't care because they know they can't do anything about them. What game out there says you can't use them and takes a very active and successful role in defeating them? Most game companies throw up their hands in defeat. This does not mean they are not cheating however.

If the game wanted to perform multiple or consecutive functions at the same time they would have put it in the game. I would not mistake their apathy or even public acknowledgement for true acceptance.

I feel any outside program is cheating. That is just my opinion. I find it hilarious that the people who defend it say that it gives no real advantage. Then why do you use it? If all you get is convenience that is indeed still an advantage.

Edited by Odium, 17 August 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Dracol]

DjPush, on 15 August 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

A program outside of MWO that allows players to play the game at a level not possible by any means other than a computer.

Would you also apply this to peripherals?

Cause I use just the throttle from this:

And with it I can do things keyboard users can not.
With it, I can:
1. Change throttle speed
2. Turn
3. Change View mode
4. Target a new mech
5. engage jump jets or hit voip

All at the exact same time, and with more control, then I ever could with a keyboard.
It allows me to play the game at a level not possible with a keyboard. No macros required. Should I be labeled a cheater?

[stjobe]

Odium, on 17 August 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

I feel any outside program is cheating. That is just my opinion.

What you "feel" and what the rules of the game are, are two different things.

"Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation."
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating

See that last sentence there? "generally used for the breaking of rules" - but there's no breaking of rules going on here, no dishonesty.

Your "feeling" that macros are cheating are no different than the scrub saying throwing someone in Street Fighter is "cheap":

"Introducing...the Scrub

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.

In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start."
- http://www.sirlin.ne...ducingthe-scrub

[1453 R]

stjobe, on 17 August 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

What you "feel" and what the rules of the game are, are two different things.

"Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation."
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating

See that last sentence there? "generally used for the breaking of rules" - but there's no breaking of rules going on here, no dishonesty.

Your "feeling" that macros are cheating are no different than the scrub saying throwing someone in Street Fighter is "cheap":

"Introducing...the Scrub

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.

In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start."
- http://www.sirlin.ne...ducingthe-scrub

I take immediate offense to anyone who quotes Sirlin and that godforsaken book in anything like a positive manner.

According to Srlin, and his lovely little definition of 'scrub' there, any of us who don't play at the absolute tippiest-top of the competitive levels, or strive continuously to do so to the exclusion of all other forms of play, are horrible capital-S Scrubs who don't actually enjoy the game the way it should be enjoyed and should not, in fact, be playing it.

I am a 'scrub', and I do not care. I play because it's a MechWarrior game, and I love MechWarrior games. I play weird funky fits on weird funky 'Mechs because they make me smile, and because taking a novel 'Mech and seeing how far it goes brings me more enjoyment than being the exact same top-level player in the exact same top-level fit as every other top-level player in every other top-level fit doing exactly the same thing.

SCREW "Playing to Win". It has ruined more games and more gamers than so-called scrubs ever have, and the sooner people stop acting like it's some magical text they can batter anyone who doesn't kill themselves with Spike-ness into submission with, the better gaming will be.

...anyways. Rant aside, on-topic:

I don't particularly like macros, but there's also nothing to be done about them. Long-standing PC gamers (which I am not, for clarity's sake) see them as nothing more than standard gaming equipment, not any sort of nefarious hack, and as has been mentioned a few times previously, some definitions of cheating people come up with for macros would also apply to some peripheral gaming hardware.

I play on a Nostromo keypad and a Naga thumb grid gaming mouse and would trade neither for all the tea in China, so as much as my gut feels like macros are a lite version of wallhacks, aimbots, and other things everyone* agrees are cheats and thus bad, I'm not free of guilt myself. I don't use macros, but I also don't play with a cheap trackball'd business mouse and a ten-dollar Wal-Mart keyboard, so...what can I really say?

Other than it's not worth getting bothered about, since Piranha has absolutely no hope of stopping macro use and too many gamers are too entrenched in the macros/add-ons culture of past games to change their ways now.

[Odium]

Dracol, on 17 August 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Would you also apply this to peripherals?

Cause I use just the throttle from this:

And with it I can do things keyboard users can not.
With it, I can:
1. Change throttle speed
2. Turn
3. Change View mode
4. Target a new mech
5. engage jump jets or hit voip

All at the exact same time, and with more control, then I ever could with a keyboard.
It allows me to play the game at a level not possible with a keyboard. No macros required. Should I be labeled a cheater?

You are right using a different physical input to make performing actions easier is not cheating. I know some people who play mmos with foot pedals for more buttons or use mice with 10 buttons on the side.

What i mean are programs that will execute multiple keystrokes or a series of keystrokes with the use of one key.

Performing combos of 6 buttons while only physically pressing one butting is a macro in my mind and is cheating to me.

[Duke ramulots]

Poisoner, on 15 August 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

Macros for gaming have existed since the 90s. This is the only game I have played where people have cried foul about it.

There has not been any sort of PVP game that involved macros that didn't also involve people crying about their use.

[Odium]

stjobe, on 17 August 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

What you "feel" and what the rules of the game are, are two different things.

"Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation."
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating

See that last sentence there? "generally used for the breaking of rules" - but there's no breaking of rules going on here, no dishonesty.

Your "feeling" that macros are cheating are no different than the scrub saying throwing someone in Street Fighter is "cheap":

"Introducing...the Scrub

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.

In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start."
- http://www.sirlin.ne...ducingthe-scrub

So is it okay to play perform a move in street fighter that requires a combination of buttons and/or joystick movements with just press one button? Its been years since I played street fighter but I doubt people would like it if I could toss a fireball by just pressing one key.

Besides that I dont know who wrote that but I dont consider somebody a scrub who doesnt bend every rule to win. People in this game abuse ECM, meta builds, and all other types of things to win but I dont think that the people who complain about them are scrubs. Just as I dont think those people who do everything just to win in a 5 minute game are "tryhards".

Duke ramulots, on 17 August 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

There has not been any sort of PVP game that involved macros that didn't also involve people crying about their use.

For sure. Macros have been talked about it almost every pvp game, especially mmos.

[stjobe]

1453 R, on 17 August 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I take immediate offense to anyone who quotes Sirlin and that godforsaken book in anything like a positive manner.

According to Srlin, and his lovely little definition of 'scrub' there, any of us who don't play at the absolute tippiest-top of the competitive levels, or strive continuously to do so to the exclusion of all other forms of play, are horrible capital-S Scrubs who don't actually enjoy the game the way it should be enjoyed and should not, in fact, be playing it.

No.

A "scrub", by Sirlin's definition, is someone who is "handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about", who is "bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing". That's why the scrub isn't playing to win even though he himself believes he is. He's not playing on the same playing field as the rest of the competitors, due to all his silly self-imposed rules.

Just because you're no good at the game doesn't mean you're a scrub, and it most certainly doesn't mean you can't have fun playing.

But to be a top player, you have to both practice a lot and not limit yourself with self-imposed rules. Play by the rules of the game, not by what you "feel" that the rules of the game should be.

1453 R, on 17 August 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I am a 'scrub', and I do not care. I play because it's a MechWarrior game, and I love MechWarrior games. I play weird funky fits on weird funky 'Mechs because they make me smile, and because taking a novel 'Mech and seeing how far it goes brings me more enjoyment than being the exact same top-level player in the exact same top-level fit as every other top-level player in every other top-level fit doing exactly the same thing.

Unless you're playing to become a top player AND also impose your own rules and limitations on the game, all the while believing these self-imposed limitations are no hindrance to you becoming a top player, you're not a scrub. You're a casual, just like me.

I like mixed builds and lightly improved stock builds. That's never going to fly at the top tier, and I'm fine with that. I have no aspirations of becoming a top player in MWO, I'm quite comfortable where I am, slightly above average (mostly because of experience and the fact that I do know how to learn).

1453 R, on 17 August 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

SCREW "Playing to Win". It has ruined more games and more gamers than so-called scrubs ever have, and the sooner people stop acting like it's some magical text they can batter anyone who doesn't kill themselves with Spike-ness into submission with, the better gaming will be.

...anyways. Rant aside, on-topic:

It was a good rant, but as most rants it was misplaced. You spent your energy defeating a target you yourself put up.

My point was this: Self-imposed rules are fine and dandy, but they do not apply to anyone but yourself. If you abhor macros and wouldn't be caught dead with them, fine. But don't call others "cheaters" for using something that's explicitly allowed. Doing so is scrub mentality, hence the Sirlin quote.

Edit:

Odium, on 17 August 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

[...]

I see reading comprehension is truly a lost art for some. I'd reply, but I think I'll just roll my eyes at your foolishness instead:

Edited by stjobe, 17 August 2015 - 02:33 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Odium, on 17 August 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

What i mean are programs that will execute multiple keystrokes or a series of keystrokes with the use of one key.

what if you can perform the same thing at the same speed wit the 12 buttons on the side? Is that cheating?

Cause the only macro I use I can replicate the results of on me Naga. The only reason I use it is that my Naga is old and has that problem where it double/triple clicks all on its own when I hit LMB

Which is a royal pain in the ass when youre replying to posts or doing anything that requires the lmb

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 17 August 2015 - 02:41 PM.

[Odium]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 August 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

what if you can perform the same thing at the same speed wit the 12 buttons on the side? Is that cheating?

Cause the only macro I use I can replicate the results of on me Naga. The only reason I use it is that my Naga is old and has that problem where it double/triple clicks all on its own when I hit LMB

Which is a royal pain in the ass when youre replying to posts or doing anything that requires the lmb

Sounds like you need a new mouse

That happened to one of my mice once. I was able to take it apart and i believe there was some stuff in there so when I clicked the button was not able to reset all the way so it would click again or something. Anyway, its worth a shot.

Regardless, having easier access to buttons or just more of them is not the same thing as pressing 1 button and a script or program actually presses multiple buttons or a series of buttons.

Edited by Odium, 17 August 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[Dracol]

Odium, on 17 August 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

What i mean are programs that will execute multiple keystrokes or a series of keystrokes with the use of one key.

Performing combos of 6 buttons while only physically pressing one butting is a macro in my mind and is cheating to me.

A macro does not allow anything that a person could normally do; except, the precision in timing. Is it a matter of macros reducing the necessary skill level required to perform more advanced operations?

With the high skill cap of the game, wouldn't it make sense to allow something that will level the playing the field more evenly between those who have the time to perfect their skills versus the more casual player?

[Mystere]

Odium, on 17 August 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

PGI probably doesn't care because they know they can't do anything about them. What game out there says you can't use them and takes a very active and successful role in defeating them? Most game companies throw up their hands in defeat. This does not mean they are not cheating however.

If the game wanted to perform multiple or consecutive functions at the same time they would have put it in the game. I would not mistake their apathy or even public acknowledgement for true acceptance.

I feel any outside program is cheating. That is just my opinion. I find it hilarious that the people who defend it say that it gives no real advantage. Then why do you use it? If all you get is convenience that is indeed still an advantage.

Then everyone who has ever used TS3 and similar external voip programs are all gigantic cheating ******** and they should all be ashamed of themselves. Being in voice communication is a huge advantage that non-voip users do not have. As such, I declare that they are all also responsible for driving away all PUG players that were stomped by groups, and who will never ever return again.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Odium, on 17 August 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

Sounds like you need a new mouse

sadly for that I need money lol

Mystere, on 17 August 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Then everyone who has ever used TS3 and similar external voip programs are all gigantic cheating ******** and they should all be ashamed of themselves. Being in voice communication is a huge advantage that non-voip users do not have. As such, I declare that they are all also responsible for driving away all PUG players that were stomped by groups, and who will never ever return again.

QTF


lol

[Odium]

Mystere, on 17 August 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Then everyone who has ever used TS3 and similar external voip programs are all gigantic cheating ******** and they should all be ashamed of themselves. Being in voice communication is a huge advantage that non-voip users do not have. As such, I declare that they are all also responsible for driving away all PUG players that were stomped by groups, and who will never ever return again.

Clever but I meant macros and you know it.

And I find people use the in game VOIP quite often which is helpful, or hilarious late at night when somebody has had 2 much to drink.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

lol id like to see a game try to outlaw macros. Itd be funny

[Mystere]

Odium, on 17 August 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

Clever but I meant macros and you know it.

And I find people use the in game VOIP quite often which is helpful, or hilarious late at night when somebody has had 2 much to drink.

Your very own words were "any outside program".

[Mystere]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 August 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

lol id like to see a game try to outlaw macros. Itd be funny

I'd like them to try banning custom devices with custom device drivers.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mystere, on 17 August 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

I'd like them to try banning custom devices with custom device drivers.

no more occulus rift XD