230 replies to this topic

[Throat Punch]

No one has answered me if using macros because of a disability is cheating or not because if not, then using them while your not disabled wouldn't be cheating either. You can't allow one group to use them and not the other. Even though i may use them for my disability doesn't mean it it could not also be an advantage for me to use them, but denying there use means i can't play at the same time. Good for the goose and all that...

[TercieI]

Mors Draco, on 17 August 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

No one has answered me if using macros because of a disability is cheating or not because if not, then using them while your not disabled wouldn't be cheating either. You can't allow one group to use them and not the other. Even though i may use them for my disability doesn't mean it it could not also be an advantage for me to use them, but denying there use means i can't play at the same time. Good for the goose and all that...

They're allowed. Period. They're not cheating. This whole thread is pointless. Happily, so is your question. Macro away!

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Terciel1976, on 17 August 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

They're allowed. Period. They're not cheating. This whole thread is pointless. Happily, so is your question. Macro away!

Thankfully the OP isnt in charge of what is or isnt cheating lol

Mors Draco, on 17 August 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

No one has answered me if using macros because of a disability is cheating or not because if not, then using them while your not disabled wouldn't be cheating either. You can't allow one group to use them and not the other. Even though i may use them for my disability doesn't mean it it could not also be an advantage for me to use them, but denying there use means i can't play at the same time. Good for the goose and all that...

Actually the exact opposite is usually true with that. For example, at Disney, you can get special alternate entrance fast passes that allow you to skip the line entirely but theyre for people with disabilities only.

Also like disability parking. If you dont have the correct placard, you get fined.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 17 August 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[SolCrusher]

Well, seeing how I had an issue with Autohotkey that was preventing me from using it reliably and I turned a support ticket and got an answer means they certainly don't mind. I had figured out the issue on my own, I didn't use the window focus command so AHK was closing my MWO client down. Some update about 6 months ago broke it which required adding the window focus to fix it.

Anyways I have 6 or 7 macros I run, so I wrote my AHK to allow me to cycle through all my macros with a pop up box and sound indicator so I know it's on script 6 for my dual guass + dual ppc, my 6 uac script, and what not. Then I go out in my DWF and nuke teams for 1000+ damage and if I need to interrupt my guass+ppc shot all i do is let off my AHK key and nothing happens. So yep I can check my guass shot.

I use AHK and write my own scripts. I like making my 12 erml nova nuke things without totally nuking itself. Now if you are using a script on Quad guass you are doing it wrong. You just need two weapon groups to fire quad gauss reliably.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

SolCrusher, on 17 August 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

You just need two weapon groups to fire quad gauss reliably.

RMB and LMB and you get around that stupid mechanic

[Dimento Graven]

PGI has ruled that macros from keyboards and mice that support such is not cheating.

You can also edit the USER.CFG, anything they allow you to put in/modify in the USER.CFG is fair game.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 August 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

RMB and LMB and you get around that stupid mechanic

Unless there was a SIGNIFICANT change to mechanic that I wasn't aware of:

NO, you cannot fire 4 gauss simultaneously.

YES, you can fire two different groups of dual gauss, independently separately.

[Hades Trooper]

DjPush, on 15 August 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

I know I am going to catch flack for this because macros are allowed in MWO. However, to me it is in the same catagory as a wall hack or aimbot. A program outside of MWO that allows players to play the game at a level not possible by any means other than a computer. A computer program is firing the weapon for you while all you do is hold the button down.

Here is an example:



Am I out of line with these feelings towards macros? I refuse to use them because I think it's fighting dirty. What do you guys think?

some people just don't have the skills so they need a program to do it for them.

If you can't do it by using your mouse only then your using a crutch and that to me is cheating.

but just like you, i'm ready for the flames of the macro users who will cry it's fair cause i can. Just cause something is legal doesn't mean it's moral.

ok, in my Salamander armour, FLAME ON

Terciel1976, on 17 August 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

They're allowed. Period. They're not cheating. This whole thread is pointless. Happily, so is your question. Macro away!

Allowed and moral are 2 different things but go ahead if you are so bad a pilot you need a crutch then go for it, you obviously need the help if you need a macro to play a game for you.

[Khobai]

Quote

some people just don't have the skills so they need a program to do it for them.

a lot of people do have the skills but choose to use macros because its EASIER

thats like saying "using a mouse is cheating because a mouse is better than my steering wheel"

macros are not cheating. because anything you can do with a macro can also be done without a macro. they dont let you do anything you couldnt normally do. they just automate the task and make it easier. just like how using a mouse makes it easier to play the game than a joystick or steering wheel.

PGI has already said macros are allowed and arnt cheating. Crying about it isnt going to make them change their mind. Besides even if they wanted to, they cant stop people from using macros anyway, its IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.

Quote

Allowed and moral

Theres nothing immoral about it.

Youre not hurting anyone else by using macros. Because anything that can be done with macros can also be done manually.

And thats what determines if something is moral or not: if someone is getting hurt.

Quote

if you are so bad a pilot you need a crutch then go for it, you obviously need the help if you need a macro to play a game for you.

people like you are responsible for the dark ages.

oppressing technology and advancements that make life easier

I can just imagine you in 1100AD:
"plows are cheating you should have to toil the earth with your bare hands"

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2015 - 12:40 AM.

[sneeking]

Pgi should remove key assignment so all must play with the exact same keyboard layout and anyone caught with more than a two button mouse dragged from their home and flogged in the street.

Storm troopers will be around to check on you next time you log in....

[Joseph Mallan]

1453 R, on 17 August 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I take immediate offense to anyone who quotes Sirlin and that godforsaken book in anything like a positive manner.

According to Srlin, and his lovely little definition of 'scrub' there, any of us who don't play at the absolute tippiest-top of the competitive levels, or strive continuously to do so to the exclusion of all other forms of play, are horrible capital-S Scrubs who don't actually enjoy the game the way it should be enjoyed and should not, in fact, be playing it.

I am a 'scrub', and I do not care. I play because it's a MechWarrior game, and I love MechWarrior games. I play weird funky fits on weird funky 'Mechs because they make me smile, and because taking a novel 'Mech and seeing how far it goes brings me more enjoyment than being the exact same top-level player in the exact same top-level fit as every other top-level player in every other top-level fit doing exactly the same thing.

SCREW "Playing to Win". It has ruined more games and more gamers than so-called scrubs ever have, and the sooner people stop acting like it's some magical text they can batter anyone who doesn't kill themselves with Spike-ness into submission with, the better gaming will be.

...anyways. Rant aside, on-topic:

I don't particularly like macros, but there's also nothing to be done about them. Long-standing PC gamers (which I am not, for clarity's sake) see them as nothing more than standard gaming equipment, not any sort of nefarious hack, and as has been mentioned a few times previously, some definitions of cheating people come up with for macros would also apply to some peripheral gaming hardware.

I play on a Nostromo keypad and a Naga thumb grid gaming mouse and would trade neither for all the tea in China, so as much as my gut feels like macros are a lite version of wallhacks, aimbots, and other things everyone* agrees are cheats and thus bad, I'm not free of guilt myself. I don't use macros, but I also don't play with a cheap trackball'd business mouse and a ten-dollar Wal-Mart keyboard, so...what can I really say?

Other than it's not worth getting bothered about, since Piranha has absolutely no hope of stopping macro use and too many gamers are too entrenched in the macros/add-ons culture of past games to change their ways now.

No His definition of a Scrub is someone who blames everything but himself for his lack of competence in a game. Its the excuse making that makes one a scrub.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mors Draco, on 17 August 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

No one has answered me if using macros because of a disability is cheating or not because if not, then using them while your not disabled wouldn't be cheating either. You can't allow one group to use them and not the other. Even though i may use them for my disability doesn't mean it it could not also be an advantage for me to use them, but denying there use means i can't play at the same time. Good for the goose and all that...

Interesting conundrum.

sneeking, on 18 August 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

Pgi should remove key assignment so all must play with the exact same keyboard layout and anyone caught with more than a two button mouse dragged from their home and flogged in the street.

Storm troopers will be around to check on you next time you log in....

Thank goodness for my Jedi Mind tricks!

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Hades Trooper, on 17 August 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

some people just don't have the skills so they need a program to do it for them.

If you can't do it by using your mouse only then your using a crutch and that to me is cheating.

but just like you, i'm ready for the flames of the macro users who will cry it's fair cause i can. Just cause something is legal doesn't mean it's moral.

ok, in my Salamander armour, FLAME ON



Allowed and moral are 2 different things but go ahead if you are so bad a pilot you need a crutch then go for it, you obviously need the help if you need a macro to play a game for you.

Textbook definition of a scrub.

We're all playing the same game, and we're all given the same opportunity to use game mechanics to our advantage or disadvantage.

If you're not using those allowances to your advantage, that's fine, but to say other people don't have skill because they're not playing by your own self-imposed rules of e-bushido is stupid.

If it makes the game so easy, why don't you go do it and show us you know what you're talking about with a 700dmg average and 4.0 KDR?

[SaltBeef]

Any thing that gives you a advantage you cannot perform by yourself is just that a crutch and not your true playability. I have been against these sanctioned rate of fire hacks since day one!

[Sjorpha]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

...anything that can be done with macros can also be done manually.

I'm in the same camp as you, I have nothing against macros whatsoever, but I have to disagree with this assertion that many people make.

I don't actually believe that you can chainfire things like 6AC2 or 4UAC5 with perfect timing and maximal firing rate without using a macro, there is no way that, for example, timing 6 different buttons at exactly 98ms over and over while also controlling your mech is practically possible, at least I haven't seen anyone do it.

What you CAN truthfully say is that chainfiring, with or without a macro, is usually inferior to cluster firing, and that it is therefore no significant advantage.

But I'm not sure that it is completely honest to say that a chainfire macro therefore is "no advantage at all", because there are definitely situations where it is very nice being able to do effective AC chainfire, for example when you want to keep a mech distracted for your teammates to kill, or when you are riding the edge of your heat cap and so on, and it's not like having that option removes the ability to cluster fire most of the time. Also the sheer "WTF?" effect of having seemingly insane dakka fired upon you should not be underestimated, I frequently use 6 macro'd AC2s and the times the emotional panic reaction alone wins me the fight happen in every other match.

At the end of the day MWO should have proper chainfire build in, and I see macros as a workaround for the fact that is doesn't. If they fix chainfire there won't me much point to using macros anymore.

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't actually believe that you can chainfire things like 6AC2 or 4UAC5 with perfect timing and maximal firing rate without using a macro

even with a macro those weapon combos are terrible

its like berating a cripple for using an electric wheelchair instead of a manual wheelchair

regardless of what type of wheelchair he has hes still a cripple

[Sjorpha]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 August 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

No His definition of a Scrub is someone who blames everything but himself for his lack of competence in a game. Its the excuse making that makes one a scrub.

Also Sirlins definition of a Scrub is not there so you can use it as an insult against other people, it's there to help you understand how you need to think if, but only if, your goal is to become a top tier comp player.

And the fact is that he is correct, the mindset in playing to win is exactly what you need if you want to become one of the best players in any game. It's just the way it is. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with playing a game for other reasons, but is your goal is competition then there is no way around the need for a correct competitive mindset, and his definition of a scrub is what you cannot afford to be in that case.

It's a tool for self examination, people should really stop using it as a public slur.

Khobai, on 18 August 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

even with a macro those weapon combos are terrible its like berating a cripple for using an electric wheelchair instead of a manual wheelchair regardless of what type of wheelchair he has hes still a cripple

6AC2s are basically a troll build, so yeah, but are you seriously claiming 4UAC5s are "terrible"?

That's interesting, I think boated UAC5s are pretty strong.

[Escef]

SaltBeef, on 18 August 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

Any thing that gives you a advantage you cannot perform by yourself is just that a crutch and not your true playability. I have been against these sanctioned rate of fire hacks since day one!

How is it a rate of fire hack? They don't allow you to fire any faster than normal.

Sjorpha, on 18 August 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

6AC2s are basically a troll build, so yeah, but are you seriously claiming 4UAC5s are "terrible"?

4xUAC5 is nasty. Never tried 6xAC2 myself, but if you look at the numbers they are better DPS than quad Gauss. Hot as hell, and requires a fair amount of face time, but just ungodly DPS.

[Lugh]

Mycrus, on 16 August 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

Ts3 = cheating then?

Yes teamwork = cheating. You are encouraging others to help you kill more efficiently. Thus cheating

[ApolloKaras]

I love macro newbs They normally face tank for way too long. Take that crab for example, the only reason he was able to stay up there for so long is because a lack of a firing line. If he stepped up with people looking at him he would have fell in a heart beat.

[Hades Trooper]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

a lot of people do have the skills but choose to use macros because its EASIER

thats like saying "using a mouse is cheating because a mouse is better than my steering wheel"

macros are not cheating. because anything you can do with a macro can also be done without a macro. they dont let you do anything you couldnt normally do. they just automate the task and make it easier. just like how using a mouse makes it easier to play the game than a joystick or steering wheel.

PGI has already said macros are allowed and arnt cheating. Crying about it isnt going to make them change their mind. Besides even if they wanted to, they cant stop people from using macros anyway, its IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.



Theres nothing immoral about it.

Youre not hurting anyone else by using macros. Because anything that can be done with macros can also be done manually.

And thats what determines if something is moral or not: if someone is getting hurt.



people like you are responsible for the dark ages.

oppressing technology and advancements that make life easier

I can just imagine you in 1100AD:
"plows are cheating you should have to toil the earth with your bare hands"

You don't even have the decency to aknowledge who your quoting but flame on my friends flame on, use your cheats, and call it progression.

You a macro user and you need the support as you can't manage it yourself, now if you supposely can manage this without a macro then show us how good you are and do it, ok thats right u think it's easier when actually it's about min/maxing to avoid the ghost heat and a work around then do it yourself as you wouold end up mssing the timeing either too early or too late when u want that exact timing that only a program macro can offer as you lack the skills