107 replies to this topic

[Onionbird]

El Bandito, on 20 August 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

I now rank the Cheetos on the same threat level as a Dire Whale. To do anything less is sheer folly.

This guy is right, btw.

[Lyoto Machida]

JHackworth, on 21 August 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

Look, Flyby215 is topnotch pilot in his on right. The issue here isn't individual piloting skill. The issue here is that people keep pushing PGI to 'fix' ELO so that matches are more competitive/even. The problem with more well-matched (smaller deviation from the mean) PSR/ELO scores is that the margin of error decreases exponentially and people compensate by eking out every advantage they can get, biggest mech for each class, meta etc.

It's a common misunderstanding that you get more 'even' games with more evenly matched ELO scores. It's often the opposite. If you drop with 11 other players with relatively similar PSRs, losing any one teammate creates a greater chance of a snowball effect of losing the rest. You are getting what you asked for. If you want games that more frequently go 12-8, 12-10, drop PSR/ELO altogether and put up with carrying new players.

#puglife

Nobody is questioning his individual skill as a pilot. What some people ARE questioning is his judgment in trying to master an unbasiced AWE in group queue matches full of top tier player. He should either do that on his own time in the PUG queue, with lower ranked grouped teammates or just suck it up. Not to mention he is taking one of the more difficult chassis to do well in due to its inherent weaknesses.

[Dimento Graven]

Flyby215, on 20 August 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

Okay, so there's a new Elo system in town. Great! However, exactly how am I supposed to level new mechs under this new system?

Spoiler

This is merely a small sampling of my evening.

Just like everyone else, a bit slowly first, then as you level the 'mech up, find a build you like, and get used to piloting the new chassis, more speedily as you go on.

Don't be silly.

Quote

I repeatedly commented on the fact that I was upset having to compete with a non-meta, non-masterered, lore-based, passionate and/or for fun mech (as is the mech I normally play) and am being placed against competitive-based teams running [mastered] competive mechs. I was told more than once, that my new Elo/PSR was based on my "potential".

GOOD NEWS! As you lose you'll fall further down the tiers, and eventually be out of reach of the upper tiers.

At that point, even if you truly are only an 'average' player, you'll be able to have regular high scoring matches.

Quote

I don't care that my finest mechs may be able to compete with the top teir teams; my finest mechs are not meta (despite some people telling me that the Jester is meta, which I think is *explicit*).

Don't worry about meta. People who rely on 'meta' are typical auto-epeen-felators looking for that ego boost...

Quote

Put simply, I do not want to play competively. I have always, and continue to do so, play mechs that I feel are fun, worth leveling, lore based, and/or passionate about (i.e. Catapult, Stalker). I am trying to level Awesomes right now, but it is being placed in an Elo/PSR grouping that was likely based upon my Stalker Elo (a mech which I am passionate about, and have 2,000+ matches played on) yet I am being placed in matches where my non-mastered Awesome has no/little chance at all, and I am a serious detriment to my team no matter how hard I try.

If you're talking about the public queue, that's not the 'competitive' arena. Yes, you might be being placed against and with players who are competitive, but, the public queue can never really be 'won' or 'lost'.

Quote

In a properly balanced game, an Awesome should not be at a disadvantage to a Dire Wolf if both players are of equal skill in their respective mechs; just because one can afford a heavier mech, should not make said player better than a fellow player of equal skill level. If I am actually among players of my skill level, according to Elo/PSR, then my Awesome should be at least reasonably competitive against a Dire Wolf.

Now you're stepping into the realm of Clan OP'ness vs. IS lesser tech. That difference is supposed to be there, but can't be managed in any realistic way in the public queue because the public queue HAS to be 12v12 (with a theoretical 50/50 chance that BOTH sides will end up with a mix of Clan and IS builds dropping).

As an aside, I think the only way 'balance' could be achieved is with a fully implemented heat affects table, however, that's a whole other conversation.

Ultimately, if you're playing an IS 'mech like an Awesome in the public queue, you will suffer issues with it, regardless of it being leveled or not. It has a very large visual silhouette and given the limitations of survivability with XL engines, you're having to figure out, do you want to move at a reasonable speed with only a small bit of fire power, or do you want to move a lot slower but at least have an alpha that might do some damage.

I'm glad I finished leveling my Awesome BEFORE the Clans were introduced, it's a fugly situation, but ultimately one of your own choosing, but unfortunately your choice to do so happens to be at a distorted portion of the life cycle of this game.

Quote

But it is not. This new system has decided to repeatedly place my un-mastered Awesome against the finest comp teams that MWO has to offer. Under the confines of the old system, I could easily wave off a nasty loss as a one-off [two/three-off], then make it up with a win [or more] in the next match(es). With the old system, I could reasonably expect to encounter players against whom my [un-mastered] Awesome would be of reasonable capability. Now, every match includes a competitive team on the opposing side. Occasionally, there is a competitive team on my side, counter-balanced by a similarly strong team on the opposing side, negating any opportunity I may have had for a good match.

This is not fair.

I am not the only player encountering this problem.

I hope PGI appreciates who they are affecting. I own a Gold mech, non-stop premium time for well over a year, several mech packs, and the desire to buy more mech packs in the future. Yet, I, among several others in my spending/playing habits, are suffering, severely, from the new Elo/PSR change. I hope others continue to speak up as well.

<sigh>

I suppose all this really indicates is that you're at a minimum, ranked Tier 3. Don't worry, you keep losing and you'll eventually get to a point where you won't be seeing them any more...

[Mystere]

Kilo 40, on 21 August 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

what kind of idiot tries to level up in the group queue?

Whew! At least I myself have been leveling my mechs in Community Warfare.

[Koniks]

Dimento Graven, on 21 August 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

I suppose all this really indicates is that you're at a minimum, ranked Tier 3. Don't worry, you keep losing and you'll eventually get to a point where you won't be seeing them any more...

Hey flyby, how much MC have you won on the leaderboards?

[Dimento Graven]

Mizeur, on 21 August 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Hey flyby, how much MC have you won on the leaderboards?

I'm not sure how that would apply anyway. If he's leveling 'mechs, and at least Tier 3, his continued significant losses will, according to PGI, eventually take him out of the range of being placed with the top Tier competitive players.

There was no malice intended in my statements...

[Lyoto Machida]

Mystere, on 21 August 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Whew! At least I myself have been leveling my mechs in Community Warfare.

People still play CW??? Holy crap...that's like finding a unicorn or a decent looking virgin in her 20s.

[Burns Nublit]

The problem I have with the new system is similar to the problem I had with the old one, It seems to be "Roll or be Rolled". I am seeing very few 12 to 8 games, with most being 12 to 3 or even worse. It is unfortunate but I am quite often on the Rolled side. I usually am a top performer on my team, try to communicate, and minimize rookie mistakes but more often than not half of my team folds on a single push. I also would think that my win loss ratio under this system in PUGs should be close to 50/50, but it is not.

I would simpley chalk this up to the idea that I need to "Get GUD" but I am usually in the top quarter of performers compaired to both the winning and loosing team. I get good damage, I get kills, and yet I loose over and over again. I am wondering how this game balances the teams, or if it even does. A whole team of low T 3's against a team of high T 3's is no competition.

Edited by Burns Nublit, 21 August 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[H Seldon]

this is why I keep saying they need PSR for each chassis. Not just a single one or one per weight class. each chassis is unique for the most part. Don't need one for each variant?

[Koniks]

Dimento Graven, on 21 August 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

I'm not sure how that would apply anyway. If he's leveling 'mechs, and at least Tier 3, his continued significant losses will, according to PGI, eventually take him out of the range of being placed with the top Tier competitive players.

There was no malice intended in my statements...

Flyby's very good both by Elo or PSR, plays a lot of games, has a skill ceiling that's probably not far off from actual performance, and PSR is based only on the last 8 months of data which is after reaching that ceiling. Unlike a still developing player who has a lower ratio of top performances vs worse performances relative to skill ceiling.

Flyby's got a long time to go before dropping in PSR enough to matter. In the meantime, taking out an unmastered or unoptimized mech will be a punishing experience.

Edited by Mizeur, 21 August 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Deathlike]

All I can say is... you have to optimize the mech (even a subpar one) in order to get a reasonably decent experience in them.

It's unavoidable in the group queue.

[Flyby215]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 August 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

Life is not fair

You, and the people who liked this comment, are part of the problem.

Hey, it's true, life isn't fair. Children should never have cancer, a man should not have to walk several hours a day just to get to work. Nobody deserves to have their possessions taken, and nobody deserves to be shot at. Ever.

There are thousands of scientists and doctors working on cures and treatments for cancer. Charitable groups are working to help underpriviledged families around the world. Theft and violence are being tackled on multiple fronts from security, to education, to youth programs.

Now I'm not a police officer, nor a doctor, nor a programmer (in this case). But step one of fixing a problem is identifying the problem. That's my post ended with "speak up". In a large community, like a large company, a lone individual speaking up about a safety concern / problem is usually forgotten about. When many speak up, identifying the same issue, there's more likely something to be done about it.

Edit: Grammar

Edited by Flyby215, 21 August 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[DAYLEET]

I grinded 3 Enforcer basics yesterday and the day before, finished 1 elite and almost finished another elite yesterday. Short answer, solo queue.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Flyby215, on 21 August 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

You, and the people who liked this comment, are part of the problem.

lol

Its a game

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 21 August 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Flyby215, on 21 August 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

You, and the people who liked this comment, are part of the problem.

Hey, it's true, life isn't fair. Children should never have cancer, a man should not have to walk several hours a day just to get to work. Nobody deserves to have their possessions taken, and nobody deserves to be shot at. Ever.

There are thousands of scientists and doctors working on cures and treatments for cancer. Charitable groups are working to help underpriviledged families around the world. Theft and violence are being tackled on multiple fronts from security, to education, to youth programs.

Now I'm not a police officer, nor a doctor, nor a programmer (in this case). But step one of fixing a problem is identifying the problem. That's my post ended with "speak up". In a large community, like a large company, a lone individual speaking up about a safety concern / problem is usually forgotten about. When many speak up, identifying the same issue, there's more likely something to be done about it.

Edit: Grammar

What's the problem though? That you take a low tier mech like the (unmastered) Awesome into a group queue filled with sharks and expect good results?

[Mawai]

Unfortunately, even full skilled up, your Awesome is probably not competitive with a Dire Whale.

The Awesome will be more maneuverable but as soon as it comes to weaponry and armor, the Dire Wolf can easily put out enough DPS to fairly quickly focus down most Awesomes.

It is the nature of the game that a 20 ton difference IS significant even though the matchmaker ignores this and groups all assault mechs together. It is true that mechs are not ordered in power strictly by tonnage but the larger the mech, the bigger engines it can fit, the more armor they can carry and typically the more weapons they will have and as a result, on average they are more powerful. This is irrespective of the Elo/PSR of the pilot.

[Bulletsponge0]

Flyby215, on 20 August 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

Okay, so there's a new Elo system in town. Great! However, exactly how am I supposed to level new mechs under this new system?











This is merely a small sampling of my evening.

I repeatedly commented on the fact that I was upset having to compete with a non-meta, non-masterered, lore-based, passionate and/or for fun mech (as is the mech I normally play) and am being placed against competitive-based teams running [mastered] competive mechs. I was told more than once, that my new Elo/PSR was based on my "potential".

I don't care that my finest mechs may be able to compete with the top teir teams; my finest mechs are not meta (despite some people telling me that the Jester is meta, which I think is *explicit*).

Put simply, I do not want to play competively. I have always, and continue to do so, play mechs that I feel are fun, worth leveling, lore based, and/or passionate about (i.e. Catapult, Stalker). I am trying to level Awesomes right now, but it is being placed in an Elo/PSR grouping that was likely based upon my Stalker Elo (a mech which I am passionate about, and have 2,000+ matches played on) yet I am being placed in matches where my non-mastered Awesome has no/little chance at all, and I am a serious detriment to my team no matter how hard I try.

In a properly balanced game, an Awesome should not be at a disadvantage to a Dire Wolf if both players are of equal skill in their respective mechs; just because one can afford a heavier mech, should not make said player better than a fellow player of equal skill level. If I am actually among players of my skill level, according to Elo/PSR, then my Awesome should be at least reasonably competitive against a Dire Wolf.

But it is not. This new system has decided to repeatedly place my un-mastered Awesome against the finest comp teams that MWO has to offer. Under the confines of the old system, I could easily wave off a nasty loss as a one-off [two/three-off], then make it up with a win [or more] in the next match(es). With the old system, I could reasonably expect to encounter players against whom my [un-mastered] Awesome would be of reasonable capability. Now, every match includes a competitive team on the opposing side. Occasionally, there is a competitive team on my side, counter-balanced by a similarly strong team on the opposing side, negating any opportunity I may have had for a good match.

This is not fair.

I am not the only player encountering this problem.

I hope PGI appreciates who they are affecting. I own a Gold mech, non-stop premium time for well over a year, several mech packs, and the desire to buy more mech packs in the future. Yet, I, among several others in my spending/playing habits, are suffering, severely, from the new Elo/PSR change. I hope others continue to speak up as well.

I was gonna say, you should group with someone worse than you, thus lowering your tier (assuming when grouping, the tier of the group is the average of the members), but then I realized who you grouped with and you had already implemented that plan









(and relax people, I'm not talking about the EmP or the SJR or anything like that...I know who he was grouped with)

[sycocys]

Well as for 'speaking up' I've had no problem doing nothing be leveling my less desirable mechs, even the ones I refuse to put double heat sinks on. Challenging matches for the self handicap? Naturally. Sub 100 damage matches and rolls? Lowest team total kills I've encountered since the change is 4 which was still a well fought match that compounded quickly towards the end - which is simply how the game is designed. Lowest output I recall was 184 in a 2 ML Myst Lynx.

People seem to hold you in high regard as to your skill level. So I'm going to assume that a fair portion of the issue is purposeful tanking matches trying to prove a point. Even with the poor hitboxes on Awesome's you should be good enough at positioning them alongside your team to crack 200-300 damage a match on average with little issue.

[Koniks]

It doesn't sound like you're playing with and against the types of players in the matches Flyby posted. With those players, the kind of rolls you consider an outlier are a lot more common. They can be caused by very small imbalances.

This is why the ideal setup would be ranked and unranked queues.

[Davers]

Mizeur, on 20 August 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

With Elo it took the average of Elo of each player in the group. It then applied a modifier, increasing the Elo rating based on the size of the group. It then had release valves for 4x3 and expanding the Elo ratings it would pair you with and match you against the longer your search ran.

It's supposed to do roughly the same thing--averaging either the individual PSR ratings or tiers for the group and matching you with similar ones.

Anecdotally, who I group with has a big impact on who I play against depending on time of day.

The release valves is what gets everyone. Good players would get 'released' into the lower Elo levels regularly. The new system doesn't seem as flexible, so you might have to face more competition.