377 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Vlad you can have your no lrm queue when i get clan mechs out of the game.

See i can make nonsensical strawmen too.

Choice is not chaos.

[Imperius]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

Imperius i agree. PvE will move probably a serious majority of players out of this PvP nightmare and into what should bave been made in the first place. I am quite certain that this will make everyone happier as well.

As for the label of being toxic yeah i have become pretty bitter about the game because i was sold a bag of gods that was never delivered and probably wont be. Seal clubber? Hardly. I am not the one trying to make sure i have a stack of unaware victims for me and my buds to put notches in our man cards.

But dont try to play innocent with statements that tell everyone not like you to shut up and carry a signature calling anyone who doesnt brag about their tier a loser. Way to class it up. So lets stop trying to pick railroad ties out of our eyes. Your vision is just as bad.

Oh yes I am toxic, I'm a solo player, my groups fell apart thanks to the toxic people. The only light I see for this game has been going PVE focused for a long time. The new user experience has been solo queue stomping for over 2 years now not groups. The only players that make it into the game and stay are the players that join groups willing to train. There aren't much of us left and we only bring in friends of friends so it's a slow introduction. If I want to go seal clubbing I'll go drop solo. You know the easy mode place.

[Vlad Ward]

EgoSlayer, on 23 August 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

All this works fine when you are working with a group that is all on the same side/orientation from that target. Something that again comes from having a unified group, and that is completely out of the window when solos are added and the commands were going out over the in game VOIP, assuming that is even happening.
Throwing a bunch of solos to complete group queues would end of a battle of who has the largest and or most groups wins more than anything else. Maybe if the game would have started with integrated VOIP and teams used it instead of their own servers it wouldn't be as much of an issue because it would be something people would be used to working with and using. But that isn't the case, communication wins and adding solos that are not part of that communication is a disservice to everyone, except the opponents.

Mm, it's true that it's tempting not to bother with integrated comms when you have your own TS. Any group that cares about winning will know they need to do this against other strong players, though. That is the case whether you're solo, grouped, or 12 at higher levels of play. "Plans" and Armchair Generals may be a Tier 4-5 construct, but if you're not calling targets in T1-2 and your opponents are you're gonna lose and hopefully anyone who plays at that level knows it.

If a team is seriously playing against a Red Team with a larger group on the other side and still refusing to use comms, it's really that team's own fault if they lose out in the coordination game. The tools are there. People know they need them. There's not much else that can be done.

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

Vlad you can have your no lrm queue when i get clan mechs out of the game.

See i can make nonsensical strawmen too.

Choice is not chaos.

I don't see how my hatred of LRMs is any more or less arbitrary than your hatred of groups. LRMs ruin my game experience and seeing them loaded on either enemy or friendly mechs makes my eyes bleed.

Lurmageddon killed the game a couple years ago. How crazy do you have to be to not realize how big a threat they are to the vast majority of players? If we don't stop forcing people to play with those icky LRM users now, everyone will quit.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 23 August 2015 - 01:36 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Not sure if that was being self-relevatory, a failed attempt at mockery or serious.

I need clarification or a translator, imperious. I really didnt get that.

[Kjudoon]

Vlad...

First off. I do not blindly hate groups. I hate what groups of trolls do to the game the same way i would hate a gang of playground bullies.

Lurmageddon did not destroy the game any more than hurricane andrew destroyed America. It was a disaster and quickly fixed. It has left some people batcrap crazy with fear and hatred for them but hardly ruined the game.

Lets try to keep the frantic and unbelievable hyperbole to a minimum shall we?

[Imperius]

New user experience hasn't been group stomps for over 2 years they get put in solo queue.

I'm no longer a group player it's rare my group is on when it used to be a place I could always go. We all play different games now and sometimes we pair up in a baby group of 4-6 max.

I've never rolled around in 12 man drops, I have only played mostly group queue with a buddy or two. Yet funny thing is I have a positive win/loss and k/d.

What don't you understand?

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

Lets try to keep the frantic and unbelievable hyperbole to a minimum shall we?

Oh god, the funny.

You're one of those guys who thinks the goons ruined closed beta, aren't you?

Here's a tip: No one in this thread is trolling right now. Unless you're using some weird, self-created alternate definition of the word, that should hopefully clear a lot up.

Edit: I'm tired. It's 5am, and some people still seem intent on treating this like some sort of evil premade conspiracy to gain access to fresh seal clubbing grounds.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 23 August 2015 - 02:04 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Pfttt...snort! Snicker.......

Keep your projection in its holster. The goons did not kill closed beta but they sure didnt make it better save for controls and policies designed to deal with guys like that. So they did the community a service by showing what bad people with good skills can xo to a community. I think they scarred paul though. But stop trying to project a " one hate" solution on me like you either do have or are prdtending to have in an effort to give your straw man choice must be chaos theory.

No one is trolling? In game or here?. I know some have tried and failed here. In game many are defending them.

But to now attempt to couch this as a Haters be hatin discussion is juvenile. This whole thread had been you defending your staunchly held belief that everyone must serve the needs of the groups that made CW into a slaughter house and now have moved into the group queue because nobody will fight them anymore on their hallowed grounds. When challenged by me and others you have gone all over thd map to find fresh ground to defend it after losing the argument time and time again. You have consistantly denied human nature will continue to repeat itself and you can force your paradigm on others successfully while conceding early on a 3 queue tier is better but cannot be implemented due to low population. A point we agree on. You then go right back to your starting position as if it never happened and that new people thrown into the offal pit you offer will stick around because numbers fix everything in your mind when all current data as shown by the abject failure of cw clearly indicates. Plus numbers would fix the 3 queue solution faster and better without alienation of anyone.

People will only stick around in an unpleasent voluntary experience a short while before they leave and the well dries up for good. I guess i m always surprised when someone who is supposedly so educated cannot see these things

[Pjwned]

Vlad Ward, on 23 August 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

Group queue has always had major issues. It's just getting more attention now because casuals are being vocal about it again, and Tier 4 Casuals are the only people who seem to matter in General Discussion.

Still not an excuse, try again.

Quote

The pool of top tier Mechs is so small that highly tuned synergies aren't a huge deal. If a team is sitting in Tier 3, they're probably not all that tuned to begin with, so going up against less optimized opponents isn't a huge deal. If a team is Tier 1, and they roll against other small groups and soloists in Tier 1, you're not going to see much of a difference. The best mechs in the game are largely self-sufficient.

All I get out of this is you understate (even flat out ignore) the exclusive benefits of playing in a group and don't actually address how it affects matches when playing against solos because you want to go PUG stomping.

Quote

Also, LRM+NARC is a noob smasher combo. It's good at what it does, but good luck using it outside of the underhive. Quirked IS Large Lasers not only have a longer range than LRMs (lol), but actually hit what you point them at and aren't totally useless in general.

Not only are you pulling things out of your ass (by ignoring that LRMs always do full damage when they land while lasers do not) to push your ridiculous agenda, LRM + NARC is still useful outside of the underhive when played properly.

Quote

Besides, this whole 12 vs solos nonsense is the most unlikely edge case possible. 12-mans are, what, 1% of the playerbase? And the odds of that 1% being matched against a team consisting entirely of solos without a single group? Miniscule.

You're still ignoring the point of coordinated groups destroying uncoordinated solo players because they inherently have more advantages, and that happens in a lot more cases than 12-man vs 12 solos but you don't bother refuting it at all.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 August 2015 - 02:15 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Pfttt...snort! Snicker.......

Keep your projection in its holster. The goons did not kill closed beta but they sure didnt make it better save for controls and policies designed to deal with guys like that. So they did the community a service by showing what bad people with good skills can xo to a community. I think they scarred paul though. But stop trying to project a " one hate" solution on me like you either do have or are prdtending to have in an effort to give your straw man choice must be chaos theory.

No one is trolling? In game or here?. I know some have tried and failed here. In game many are defending them.

But to now attempt to couch this as a Haters be hatin discussion is juvenile. This whole thread had been you defending your staunchly held belief that everyone must serve the needs of the groups that made CW into a slaughter house and now have moved into the group queue because nobody will fight them anymore on their hallowed grounds. When challenged by me and others you have gone all over thd map to find fresh ground to defend it after losing the argument time and time again. You have consistantly denied human nature will continue to repeat itself and you can force your paradigm on others successfully while conceding early on a 3 queue tier is better but cannot be implemented due to low population. A point we agree on. You then go right back to your starting position as if it never happened and that new people thrown into the offal pit you offer will stick around because numbers fix everything in your mind when all current data as shown by the abject failure of cw clearly indicates. Plus numbers would fix the 3 queue solution faster and better without alienation of anyone.

People will only stick around in an unpleasent voluntary experience a short while before they leave and the well dries up for good. I guess i m always surprised when someone who is supposedly so educated cannot see these things

You are really, really hung up on that degree, man. Can we please move on from that? It was a temporary fit of insanity where I momentarily forgot this forum section can no longer take a joke.

Selective reading seems to be a real problem here, though. I said no one in this thread is trolling. What makes you think I'm talking about the entire population of MWO? Or anything involving the game?

The narrative you've constructed is baffling in its scope. You keep on ignoring reality if you want, I guess. I thought you peaced out of this thread pages ago anyways.

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

Still not an excuse, try again.

All I get out of this is you understate (even flat out ignore) the exclusive benefits of playing in a group and don't actually address how it affects matches when playing against solos because you want to go PUG stomping.

Not only are you pulling things out of your ass (by ignoring that LRMs always do full damage when they land while lasers do not) to push your ridiculous agenda, LRM + NARC is still useful outside of the underhive when played properly.

You're still ignoring the point of coordinated groups destroying uncoordinated solo players because they inherently have more advantages, and that happens in a lot more cases than 12-man vs 12 solos but you don't bother refuting it at all.

Er... the exclusive benefit I have of dropping with my team is that we can talk about path of exile builds during a match without being told to shut up like that Arkab Legion guy in that other thread?

I'm sure you have a fancy line or two about knowing my teammates like extensions of my own body or something, but I've never experienced that particular kind of zen and I used to lead a top 5 ranked NA comp team back in ye olde early days of RHOD and MCW. Maybe it's a level only the top 3 ranked teams ever reach or something.

I also don't drop in large groups any more myself, you know. I've said all this multiple times in this thread. I'm long since retired from comp and my formerly 200+ member unit sits on a current membership of less than a dozen active players. Who's going pug stomping?

LRMs are garbage. Pure, unadulterated garbage. Great for making noobs and casuals hate the game, though. That cockpit shake is awful. PS: Lasers do full damage when they land, too, assuming you aren't trying to aim with a steering wheel.

If the CW queue did teach me one thing, it's that group size is not a magic cure-all to trump players of equivalent skill. You can pretend big groups are invincible monsters all you want, but that's not reality.

[Kjudoon]

Your right vlad. Selective reading is a problem today.

So is thinking you successfully deflected my dissection of your position in this thread by attempting to minimize its veracity with trite obseration you are wrong.

Edit: and I ignored your obvious red herring with your ignorance about LRMs, lacking the tact to not point it out.

Edited by Kjudoon, 23 August 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[Pjwned]

Vlad Ward, on 23 August 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

Er... the exclusive benefit I have of dropping with my team is that we can talk about path of exile builds during a match without being told to shut up like that Arkab Legion guy in that other thread?

I'm sure you have a fancy line or two about knowing my teammates like extensions of my own body or something, but I've never experienced that particular kind of zen and I used to lead a top 5 ranked NA comp team back in ye olde early days of RHOD and MCW. Maybe it's a level only the top 3 ranked teams ever reach or something.

I also don't drop in large groups any more myself, you know. I've said all this multiple times in this thread. I'm long since retired from comp and my formerly 200+ member unit sits on a current membership of less than a dozen active players. Who's going pug stomping?

Keep exaggerating and dodging the argument.

Quote

LRMs are garbage. Pure, unadulterated garbage. Great for making noobs and casuals hate the game, though. That cockpit shake is awful.

I don't understand why you're so assmangled about LRMs if they're so garbage, but I don't think I care enough to understand.

Quote

PS: Lasers do full damage when they land, too, assuming you aren't trying to aim with a steering wheel.

They don't do full damage at the range LRMs can, so your claim that lasers outrange LRMs is misleading.

Quote

If the CW queue did teach me one thing, it's that group size is not a magic cure-all to trump players of equivalent skill. You can pretend big groups are invincible monsters all you want, but that's not reality.

Groups are not invincible, but they have inherent advantages that you prefer to just flagrantly ignore which makes your arguments crap.

[Yokaiko]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

Vlad you can have your no lrm queue when i get clan mechs out of the game.

See i can make nonsensical strawmen too.

Choice is not chaos.

Yeah PvP nightmare was pretty high up there.

[Yokaiko]

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

Keep exaggerating and dodging the argument.

He's not exagerating, that is actually exactly how the early days of REM went.

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

I don't understand why you're so assmangled about LRMs if they're so garbage, but I don't think I care enough to understand.

He explained that in clear English.

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

They don't do full damage at the range LRMs can, so your claim that lasers outrange LRMs is misleading.

False, quirks and range modules push ER-larges past 1000m on a number of mechs. Not to mention with that sort of time, if you are getting hit from +800 with LRM you are afk.

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

Groups are not invincible, but they have inherent advantages that you prefer to just flagrantly ignore which makes your arguments crap.

He said they have an advantage, its also not a sure thing.

[Imperius]

Sept 1st is the day I will be on MWO even less than I am now (1-5 times every month) I'm only sticking around for single player if it ever makes it out which I have my doubts, because they seem intent on adding CW phase 3 which is adding "stuffs" to a dead game type, wasting time, and not fixating on the one thing to save MWO if done RIGHT!

Metal Gear Solid 5 comes out on Sept 1. Has a massive single player and a cool build your own base feature plus will have online after (how it's supposed to be)

I hope you solo players can shell out $1000 a year to keep the game alive good luck to you I've given all my feedback to PGI if they listen or not I did all I could do.

Edited by Imperius, 23 August 2015 - 05:00 AM.

[Pjwned]

Yokaiko, on 23 August 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

He's not exagerating, that is actually exactly how the early days of REM went.

Not only do I have a number of very good reasons to believe you, I also have a number of very good reasons to believe that's how would it be now after the game has changed in various ways.

Hint: the number is 0.

Quote

He explained that in clear English.

Pretty sure that cockpit shake being a problem on a weapon that's considered garbage is contradictory, so try again.

Quote

False, quirks and range modules push ER-larges past 1000m on a number of mechs.Not to mention with that sort of time, if you are getting hit from +800 with LRM you are afk.

I guess 1 single mech (the LCT-3V) is "a number of mechs" technically, although it's a bit misleading to say mechs with a plural since it's only 1 mech.

Quote

He said they have an advantage, its also not a sure thing.

I suppose it's not a sure thing if you don't even try to actually play as a group, sure.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 August 2015 - 05:10 AM.

[Imperius]

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

Not only do I have a number of very good reasons to believe you, I also have a number of very good reasons to believe that's how would it be now after the game has changed in various ways.

Hint: the number is 0.



Pretty sure that cockpit shake being a problem on a weapon that's considered garbage is contradictory, so try again.



I guess 1 single mech (the LCT-3V) is "a number of mechs" technically, although it's a bit misleading to say mechs with a plural since it's only 1 mech.



I suppose it's not a sure thing if you don't even try to actually play as a group, sure.

I'm in The Remnant too, yes that is how it went no exaggeration, this game is a shadow of how fun it used to be.

[Idealsuspect]

Vlad Ward, on 22 August 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

At this point I'd be content to allow solo players to "opt out" of dropping with groups because they're so terrified of premades, but it really shouldn't be necessary today with matchmaker v13.6.a Ebon Jaguar

I am not terrified ( and guess nobody are ) about a CI, PL or templar's full 12' premade for example ( no offense just the truth ) and there is many other examples like this ...

But a 4' of emp, CSJx or a 6' of MS, 228 Kcom BMMU + average solos will terrify even a full bunch/team of good solos pugs + few average solos ( or worst: a 4' of average units ).


With grouping solo and group queues, this will just became a farming mode for good, coordinated and skilled units like MS, 228, TCAF, 420 and many others oh wait maybe you just want this re-happend..?
Farming solo players... ? No matter if they are totally new or if thoses veterans just want play pug/.

Cause this is the only will happend, less waiting time for pilots in groups ( they are very rare or you wouldn't open this kind of topic.... ) but less fair game for all others...


I totally agree that group queue need a real boost... i am not again play more in group, not at all... but rollback to old farming queue system is really the last thing to do.
LFG was a failure cause it was release too late, MWO population play the game 3 years and dont need/want this "feature" anymore.

CW is the key if PGI should refund this gamemode and give it a real purpose/goal for force people to play as group and more as unit ...
But it's another topic thread...

Edited by Idealsuspect, 23 August 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[Chados]

Clearly a case where a call sign doesn't fit the person.

This post can't be liked enough. He's dead on. Most people that play MWO are casual players. That's why the solo queue works and the queues depending on organized units are ghost towns. Basically, the actual organized teams need cannon fodder, and they won't get it in CW and group queue, so they want to ensure that they do get it, because living in a ghost town or dropping with a less skilled group against, say, EmP, is no fun at all-they get PUG stomped and they don't like it any better than anyone else.

I don't know how this gets fixed. I think one thing that could fix it is a viable PvE experience. Committed PvP is a small subset of the player base for any online game. Star Trek Online and World of Warcraft are examples of online games that allow a solo experience, a group-vs-environment experience, and a PvP experience. You have organized guilds in both, you have competitive gaming and total tryhards in both, and you have antisocial nimrods in both. For MWO to survive long-term, it has to come up with a PvE experience.

When I played Multiplayer Online Battletech on the GEnie system over 20 years ago...I know, many people reading this were toddlers or not even born then...the game was designed for that. It was designed around a map that worked so much like the CW queue here that it hurts to see it. But it wasn't the same game. It was set in 3025, and worked like this:

A new player entering the game was seeded into one of the houses, and established units to start, automatically. You could change your House affiliation after that, and recruiters for the Houses haunted the recruit depots where you came into the game, spamming you with invites. I started in Davion with the 9th Benjamin Regulars, and was recruited instantly by the commander of the 17th Rasalhague Regulars in the Combine. I came on board, and was gifted with my first mech, a Shadowhawk 2D. I couldn't pilot mediums, so it was in my stable while I trained.

The Houses were player controlled and there were organized mercenary units in addition to Wolf's Dragoons, the game's mercenary faction. Mercs worked for Cbills and could drop under contract to any of the houses. The house military units were paid much less in Cbills, but the Houses took care of mech repair costs by providing standard military-configured mechs. I never liked that trade off but the house units were better organized and I didn't like the merc experience when I briefly tried it. At the top was the leader, our Coordinator, who ascended to his or her position, I believe, in some way reflecting his or her skill in the game. I remember that this could change if the leader was called out and defeated by an aspirant to the title, but ours was popular enough that he didn't get challenged. When he would show up in drop queue, all the rest of us would instantly straighten up attitudes, call him "Tono," and be respectful as good Kuritan samurai should. The core game mechanic was identical to current CW here, with the units locating to a planet under attack or on defense. The choice was that of the unit commanders, who operated under the command of and were appointed by the military district governors, and the governors were put in their positions by the Coordinator. Lance leaders in the company could locate their lances manually to a planet under attack, without orders from the hierarchy, to mount a defense against a surprise invasion.

The core game was PvE, 4 players on 4 droids. There was a way to go 4-on-4 PvP, on Solaris. I never dropped on Solaris. We'd pile up in the drop lobby and the game would pick four of us randomly from a single faction to drop into battle with the AI. Wash, rinse, repeat. The players fighting for the planet from all factions in combat would start in the same lobby and there was much trash talk between the factions on the open channel. We had a House channel as well. Kurita players were mostly role players, we'd tell each other "Konnichi-wa," or "K-wa" when entering a lobby or chatting on ComStar, or posting on the House's online forum (the game had House forums like we do on this website). We mostly fought Davion and Steiner, and since I was in the Rasalhague district I saw mostly Steiner, and to this day I don't like the LCAF as a result-our Lyrans were usually cocky and arrogant, but very proficient and we had a real hard time with them in warfare events. The Davions in our game tended to be some pompous, backstabbing royalists and they invaded us once when we were occupied with a Lyran push in Rasalhague...that was a tense fight. There was some sort of a United Nations where the military district commanders and Coordinator were somehow involved with the working of the game, there were a lot of online meetings and diplomacy with the other houses that I never saw, I was too low-ranked.

The training missions were alone vs AI droids, one on one if I recall correctly. The purpose was to learn the drop lobby and how to fight in game. You started in lights, and when you'd shown basic competence and graduated, you were allowed to drop in lights with the unit. As a member of a lance in the 17th, I was on the lowest tier of the player base. As I dropped (in Locusts!) and worked with the other three mechs I'd go in with in the queue. I accumulated points, and when I was promoted to the next rank I was allowed to train in mediums. I could then drop in Phoenix Hawks and Shadowhawks. Wash, rinse, repeat for heavies, and that was my intro to the Rifleman and Marauder. The mech I used most often after that was the RFL-3N, 2xAC10, 2xML. Control of the planet in a fight went to the faction that won the most matches against the AI.

We had a thriving player base until the franchise folded when GEnie cashed in its chips. I left the game before that because of personal issues. I had no knowledge of the Battletech universe before MPBT. I've been a Combine loyalist ever since, including in the old Solaris game (I only played that for a very short time, it it wasn't what I wanted-the old MPBT immersive experience). When I saw CW here, I thought we had the old game back. But it's not. It could be. But there has to be a PvE experience as well as a PvP one. If there was, today I'd do both. The old MPBT structure encouraged unit cohesion and created opportunities to make friends in the faction. Before I was done, I made lance leader and then commanded the 17th when my CO was appointed governor of the Rasalhague district. I've never had that much fun in a game since. I keep looking for the same experience. We're so close here I can taste it. I hope PGI gets there.

Major Tryhard, on 23 August 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

You should be grateful for the existence of the solo queue. If PGI hadn't separated groups from solo players there would be maybe 500 of you still playing this game and your must-have mech packs would have to cost something like 400 dollars in order to keep the servers online. So, say a big THANK YOU to PGI for implementing the solo queue, they saved you a lot of money.
Also, ask yourselves this: If being in a group is so amazingly fun and generally better in every way, how come there's so few people actually joining those groups? You don't have to pay a fee to join one, so what is it about groups that makes most people avoid them? Is it a conspiracy? Is the Man trying to keep us from getting organized so that he can control us? Maybe it is something else that you are not willing to admit?
Face facts here, for most people this is just a simple arena game that they can fire up for 30-90 minutes when they get home and shoot some robots with frickin' laser beams. Your "units", your "ranks", your "skrims", your "training nights" mean nothing to them. Force them to play against you and they will just move on to the next game that offers that 30-90 minute window of entertainment while you end up with the 400 dollar mech packs.
If you can financially support your concept of a hardcore team-based game that requires hours and hours of dedication, then by all means go for it. Sign long term contracts with PGI and you will have your tryhard game for as long as you want. Until you can do that, the vast majority of the solos are what keeps this game going.
MWO: I know it's important to you, but it's not important to most people that play it. Deal with it.

Edited by Chados, 23 August 2015 - 06:22 AM.

[Imperius]

Only thing I agree with is PVE, and this game should have had it from the start. I just hope you solos put your wallet where your mouth is and fund the game from now on. After all, you got everything you asked for, and made all the groups shelling out $100's per person almost per month to quit.

Good luck pug warriors o7

Edited by Imperius, 23 August 2015 - 06:29 AM.