377 replies to this topic

[Nyden]

Your worried about edge cases, to which I say, it all evens out in the end. I'm discounting your subjective experience with group cue because things have changed.

Have you ever played as a solo with or against a premade in MWO? Have you ever done it with your entire team having access to the same VOIP channel? Have you ever tried it with the current match maker?

If you answered no to any of those questions than there is strong reason to believe that the future may be different than the past. The main reason group cue has been so bad is because of the population imbalance causing an already poor matchmaking system to completely fail at it's job.

The argument I'm making is that, given the new tools, there's no reason to believe things can't be better, and that by fixing the number one cause of stomps in group cue (poor matchmaking caused by low population) we'll encourage everyone to want to play as a group even if it's not premade. Afterall, if your teamed with 4 or 5 coordinated players you might pick up a few tricks and maybe try to be a little more coordinated next time.

Separating the cues initially caused a major loss in population and fragmenting it even further now would just compound the problem in the group cues. We'd be back to 45 minute waits for the big groups (remember the twelve man cue?) and the small group cue would have the same problem the current group cue does of having to cast too wide a net to fill a match.

It would be really nice if premades made an effort to use VOIP rather than teamspeak but that's a thread that can wait until it matters.

[Aresye]

Kjudoon, I want you to answer a very simple question:

- What purpose is the solo queue for when Solaris mode rolls out?

[Deathlike]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

How do i know? Simple. My teamspeak has had to set up solo queue channels for all the teammates who are sick of the group queue. We solo drop together occasionally facing each other and have a good time of it. I know because i watch it happen eveey night i play and hear it from several other friends in other units.

My only guess is that you didn't have a good dropcaller. Honestly, the difference between a good drop and a bad drop is the lack of communication more often than not.

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That experiential evidence trumps other people' s word on it.

I think it's limited honestly. I've embraced teamwork from day 1, because it's the only way to survive and succeed regularly.


I take feedback/info from people smarter/more successful than me. It's the only way to grow.. at least for me.

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As for losing i lose only slightly less in solo queue but the stomps are less severe or morale crushing. You are playing with more players there to have fun rather than work on unit tactics or lance maneuvers which really makes for lousy team play cause they are doing their own thing or demNding everyone else follow them. Again... I have been on both sides of this.

I recognize stomps for what they are... the opfor did a better job than we did. It's really as simple as that. Sometimes you were the problem... sometimes the rest of the team is a problem. It's better to acknowledge that everyone has a shared responsibility in that.

If you play with a lot of casual players... well you shouldn't be surprised @ the results though. I demand people don't do dumb things more often than not, but poop doesn't go down as simple as that though.

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Groups unto themselves are not the problem. I say again for the cheap seats.... Groups unto themselves are not the problem. PSR mismatches and group behavior is the problem. PSR mismatches are caused by psr averaging. This is currently unavoidable unless you lock the tiers so only same tier can face each other OR limit who can group by tier. Neither one of these solutions are good. Even though i like the direction we are going with psr... It is going to take time to shake out even with using the lasrlt 8 months of data to hehelp because that was under the old matchmaker plus the group queue distorts matches badly.

Blaming the system in its entirely, and not holding yourself to any responsibility is faulty.

If you're casual.. criticizing the system isn't helpful. You don't want to get better (or take orders/directions), and then expect the system to favor your style of play? It doesn't ever work like that.

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In a month or two, those who drop solo will be in their appropriate tier. Those who play group will be better but still not correctly seeded due to psr averaging. Btw this is all off topic. Something you accused me of doing consistently. Just so you know.

I don't think it will ever favor LRM boats though.. because their numbers contribute to an uneventful result (a form of PSR hell).

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We need 3 queues. Things have changed for the worse and psr averaging is still not gone.l unless you lock tiers or limit grouping.

That won't solve a thing as currently constituted.

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Now here is a psychological experiment for you. If group tags did not show in the group queue nor faction tags would you recognize groups or psr mismatches? Made me think that is for sure.

I would recognize "good players" for what they are. Being in a group doesn't actually mean you're that tier level of player. Unless you are selective like some of the top tier groups, various groups accept players from all levels. It's when they work together is when it really matters.

[Kjudoon]

1. I wont play solaris 1v1. I dont duel. Nor will many others. This whole game is solaris anyway so why do we need another useless mode that is accomplished through private matches?

2. 12 v12 individuals thrown together is a solo queue and should face the same unless they want... And that is the key point here... Want to opt in to play against groups.

Why are you guys so intent of forcing people to play with you who dont want to play on your terms and just leave to play the way they wish? Let those who want to opt in join you and just do your own thing.

[Deathlike]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

2. 12 v12 individuals thrown together is a solo queue and should face the same unless they want... And that is the key point here... Want to opt in to play against groups.

Um, that is actually what happens already, unless there's something I'm missing. The opt-in for groups is not available (because PGI™).

I don't think anyone is asking to abolish the solo queue, but there does need to be some sort of transitional system in learning to play with groups though.

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Why are you guys so intent of forcing people to play with you who dont want to play on your terms and just leave to play the way they wish? Let those who want to opt in join you and just do your own thing.

I'm pretty sure that's a loaded question.

I'd rather not see people use LRMs, but they use them anyways. I can't stop them from taking it. However, if they aren't a contribution to winning, the numbers will speak from themselves (then again, LRM #s get inflated easily, possibly to their own detriment).

Doing your own thing for not trying to help the team win, is arguably the most detrimental thing in this game.

[Pjwned]

Deathlike, on 23 August 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

I don't think it's impossible... I'd rather have opt-in with C-bill bonuses for solos that want to play with groups.

In theory, if you have a high Elo player (back when Elo was a thing), inserting a high Elo player into a team that has a lower average Elo (not too significant a difference, hopefully) would be sufficient as the higher Elo player is more likely to play better in a team environment, instead of a lower Elo average team which probably won't be on the same page.

It's not impossible, but you'd have to be extremely selective.

I would be more agreeable with allowing solo players to opt in with groups rather than abolishing the solo queue like OP and other shortsighted elitists suggest, but what about the group players that don't want to play with solos?

[Imperius]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

1. I wont play solaris 1v1. I dont duel. Nor will many others. This whole game is solaris anyway so why do we need another useless mode that is accomplished through private matches?

2. 12 v12 individuals thrown together is a solo queue and should face the same unless they want... And that is the key point here... Want to opt in to play against groups.

Why are you guys so intent of forcing people to play with you who dont want to play on your terms and just leave to play the way they wish? Let those who want to opt in join you and just do your own thing.

lol you wont 1v1 but you want solo queue.

I say it's on by default and you can opt out that simple or vise versa opt in...

[Nyden]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

Why are you guys so intent of forcing people to play with you who dont want to play on your terms and just leave to play the way they wish? Let those who want to opt in join you and just do your own thing.

This is a team game. Teamwork should be encouraged not optional. How many other pvp online games have no-premade cues? I'm thinking just the ones that have no premades at all. It seems odd to me that you think this game should cater specifically to people who can't be bothered to play with others. I mean aren't you opting into playing with groups just by creating an account? I guess what I'm asking is If you (and these others you speak of) aren't interested in playing with groups in any capacity then why are you playing this game?

If i hated puzzles I wouldn't play a puzzle game and I certainly wouldn't go on the forums defending that I should be able to play the game without the puzzles and decrying all those who think the puzzles should be made mandatory, now that they're all working, for shoving something down my throat I don't want.

I just don't understand your resistance, as the only reason you seem to be cable of giving is that you don't want it and John Average-Solo agrees with you. You point out edge cases as ruining your fun but I think the system is designed to minimize those and the rules of probability will keep any one from getting picked on. The more players a matchmaker has to draw on the less likely an edge case arises. Maybe you think a 4 man with 2 tier-1's and two tier 5's will push their tier 3 team to victory every single time, I think those two tier 5's are a bigger detriment than you believe.

.....but we won't know unless we try.

[Deathlike]

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

I would be more agreeable with allowing solo players to opt in with groups rather than abolishing the solo queue like OP and other shortsighted elitists suggest, but what about the group players that don't want to play with solos?

This is an opt-in system (by default, not enabled).

This becomes a personal decision by the players themselves.

As a group player, you are supposed to embrace the solo player as long as the solo player follows the group/team to whatever. I have zero issues if a solo EmP member is on the same team I'm on (or if he's on the other side), but you have to work with EVERYONE in order to succeed. This wouldn't be any different if the solo player was not as good either.. that player simply has a work in a team concept/environment and that's all one could ask for.

Usually joining the group queue (as a solo player) requires an "informed decision" (hence the opt-in requirement), and forcing solo players to join the group queue doesn't help when they probably need a lot more help before they are ready to join the group queue.

Back when solos+4-man premades were a thing, it was very chaotic in the sense that the true newbie solo player gets screwed (they were along for the ride) while the useful solo player was helpful... as long as the premades didn't derp too hard.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 August 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Death, i have played with excellent and crap dropcallers. When i used to play with a team i was considered to be a pretty good one myself. Not great but not a pile of garbage either. Sadly most of the best dropcallers i have played with quit the game due to the steMing pile of cowdung nature cw and the group queue has devolved into.

Embracing teamwork is the fastest road to victory. BUT and many need to get this past their hair and into their brains... Teamwork is not found exclusively in groups. I work to support the intent of the team unless i see they are doing something blitheringly stupid. Then i will go see what i can do on my own since i have given up herding cats.

Lrm discussins in this thread are useless and have no bearing just like discussing the removal of all light mechs wouldnt.

The problem with tiers as currently laid out is two tiers face every tier. Just not all in the same drop. A e queue system works in this environment because it limits group psr averaging. If you lock the tiers then you dont need a third queue since the groups would be forcibly balanced. You still will have the practicing tryhards going against casuals but at least with tier lockout it is guaranteed their skills will be balanced and without any ringers.

And yes i am very familiar that team tag does not represent skill or organisation. I have been in many "pug 12mans" who never played together but were just having fun on teamspeak.

The points still stand that forcing people into the same queue is not the answer the same way forcing people to play a mode they dont like will result in such a backlash it could wreck the game. Mode voting anyone? Remember that backlash and how fast PGI had to remove it due to the tsunami of rage and people leaving the game? I do.

So lets keep the solo queue as is allow the opt in for solos and heck even bribe small groups to play in it with cbill and xp bonuses. Sure... Why not? Give em a reason to go get their teeth kicked in.

[Kjudoon]

Ikperius, you dont, wont, or cant get it so i am not going to bother to explain.

[Deathlike]

Kjudoon, on 23 August 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

Death, i have played with excellent and crap dropcallers. When i used to play with a team i was considered to be a pretty good one myself. Not great but not a pile of garbage either. Sadly most of the best dropcallers i have played with quit the game due to the steMing pile of cowdung nature cw and the group queue has devolved into.

I dunno, I blame PGI for that honestly. There's a theme here.

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Embracing teamwork is the fastest road to victory. BUT and many need to get this past their hair and into their brains... Teamwork is not found exclusively in groups. I work to support the intent of the team unless i see they are doing something blitheringly stupid. Then i will go see what i can do on my own since i have given up herding cats.

I think teamwork is generally endorsed if not just enforced/reinforced in groups. The thing that I've been saying though is that it is incredibly difficult to foster in solo players in the solo queues. The expectation of a normal "team player" in a solo queue is asking "is that guy going to help me" instead of "can we push together soon?". That's what I'm saying.

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Lrm discussins in this thread are useless and have no bearing just like discussing the removal of all light mechs wouldnt.

I'm pretty much putting examples... (the Light mechs are OP threads are hilarious though), but it's just to make a point though.

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The problem with tiers as currently laid out is two tiers face every tier. Just not all in the same drop. A e queue system works in this environment because it limits group psr averaging. If you lock the tiers then you dont need a third queue since the groups would be forcibly balanced. You still will have the practicing tryhards going against casuals but at least with tier lockout it is guaranteed their skills will be balanced and without any ringers.

That has more to do with PGI's design of the system (poorly conceived IMO) than anything else. This is working as intended™ though.

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The points still stand that forcing people into the same queue is not the answer the same way forcing people to play a mode they dont like will result in such a backlash it could wreck the game. Mode voting anyone? Remember that backlash and how fast PGI had to remove it due to the tsunami of rage and people leaving the game? I do.

There is a point where giving players too much control with a limited playerbase will only make it more difficult for the MM to do its work IMO. There has to be some limits... a give and take that works for both sides. PGI's problem is how it would be laid out or implemented (a problem with the system they tried to introduce). They aren't really good at that part honestly.

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So lets keep the solo queue as is allow the opt in for solos and heck even bribe small groups to play in it with cbill and xp bonuses. Sure... Why not? Give em a reason to go get their teeth kicked in.

...

In order to get better, you have to acknowledge you have stuff to work on.

If you don't want to work on getting better, complaining about a system doesn't help your argument (if you don't care about your loadout, then you shouldn't be worried about the results, and as a consequence... the system in question isn't necessarily the problem).

Edited by Deathlike, 23 August 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Deathlike.... Again the point you are missing is i dont want to be in a group. A group is NOT... REPEAT NOT the same as a team. Particularly if being in a group means i am just going to be the flunky who gets int the sparring ring with some jackhole who thinks hes going to be the next middleweight champion of the world and doesnt realize you dont disrespect or try to kill your sparring partner.

I dont get that in the solo queue. Sure you get the Rambos and the monday morning Pattons... But that is tolerable in comparison.

The last and most salient point i need to drive home is this: if you take away the only remaining positive gsming experience crom players... They will leave and not come back till those who took it from them are gone. Since the majority of players play solo queue only, can you risk alienating that group?

[Pjwned]

Nyden, on 23 August 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

Things have changed since the cues were separated. We have VOIP, we have LFG. Most importantly (I can't stress how important this is to the existence of this thread) we have a new and, theoretically, better matchmaker. The old matchmaker was based on win/loss while the new one should be ranking you with people who play the game in a similar way and that's a huge difference in terms of who you're getting matched against (and with). The matchmaker needs time to get everybody into the tier they belong but, let me remind you, your tier should be based on your ability to contribute to the team, not on your ability to score damage so It seems unlikely that a Tier 1 or 2 player would ever end up in a group against teir 4 or 5 players. Not to say it can't happen (edge cases, remember) but it would be rare. Keep in mind that Tier 4 or 5 players are not really keen on playing as a group or they would not be in that tier and they will be nothing but dead weight in a match against mostly Tier 1 and 2 players or organized Tier 3`s.

Let me also explain the way averages and probability work: You`re equally as likely to get a premade on your team as the other side. Every time the matchmaker puts you in a sub par situation you are just as likely to end up in a situation where your side gets the advantage. It may not seem that way, and bad runs do happen, but the fact is, if your losing every time you play, it isn`t the matchmaker gunning for you and, under the new system, you`ll eventually end up in a tier where premades are rare as gold anyway.

None of that eliminates the problems of forcing solo players to mix with group players, it just makes thing less bad and even then not always.

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The point is, there isn`t any objective reason to believe that mixing the cues will cause solos to lose all the time. There are several objective reasons to believe that it won`t make any difference as far as win/loss ratio goes but it may improve quality of life for many players (especially new ones who can play with their friend and not get stomped by horrible mismatch's do to low population)

There actually are reasons to think mixed queues will result in problems, it's just that you and other people ignore (or attempt to sweep it under the rug) the exclusive benefits of playing in a group.

Read the damn thread and stop ignoring the issues.

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Maybe I'm wrong and training on Teamspeak causes the side with a 7+ premade to win every single time but that wouldn't effect the solos (who are just as likely to get teamed up with one as they aren't) it would just horribley inflate the tiers of the premade players so that Tier 1 and 2 become defacto group cues anyway. In truth we won't really know, objectively, until we try and so, I'm all for trying.

Remember, I'm a solo player. I've never played in a premade. I'm not looking for a seal clubbing. I think a single cue, or something to that effect is the best move for both the quality of play and for the best retention of players and new players going forward.

We don't need separate cues anymore, things have changed.

There isn't a good reason to "just try it" because acknowledging the problem of mixed queues at even the most basic level makes it obvious why it's not a good idea. You can argue for allowing people to opt in to play with groups as a compromise, but that's not the same thing and I suspect that it's not good enough for the people with an entitlement complex.

[Kjudoon]

Also can we stop blaming the victim?   No player is perfect not even me or you.  This also does not excuse or give a pass to anything.
Pgi does have a LOT of self inflicted wounds here.   No doubt.   There are rambos pretty much in every game.  You dont want to play with them form up a 1wman and play in the group queue.  Leave them to their own devices.
We also need to stop trying to force people to :play better" in our opinion.  Tier 1 isnt an end game.  I dont want to play with people that good because i know what it takes to get there and stay there.  It just isnt worth it.  
Everyone has the right to suck if they want.  You can watch my videos if you want to make your own opinion on whether i suck.  My gameplay is how i want to play.  You will even see me in cw and company drops.  Heck i think i have one of me dropcalling in there.A recent RARE group drop for me. Personally a bad match but it was fun and the editing worked so well. This is what i get may one time in twenty in the group queue.http://youtu.be/NESLLw7gHfg

Edited by Kjudoon, 23 August 2015 - 08:20 PM.

[Nyden]

Pjwned, on 23 August 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

There isn't a good reason to "just try it" because acknowledging the problem of mixed queues at even the most basic level makes it obvious why it's not a good idea. You can argue for allowing people to opt in to play with groups as a compromise, but that's not the same thing and I suspect that it's not good enough for the people with an entitlement complex.

What is the problem with mixed cues at even the most basic level? Is the problem that solo players tend to lose? Because, I thought I addressed that. I honestly don't understand what you mean. If you have specific problems with mixed cues I would be happy to address it. Maybe there's something I haven't thought of.

I would be happier with solos opting into group play but I don't expect group play to get any better as a result because most solo players will not opt in, because they have no reason to. I believe that full amalgamation is the only way to fix the group cue, and the group cue needs to be fixed or this game ain't gonna make it much longer and that would really suck because I've spent alot of money here.

I don't play in groups and, frankly, I don't really expect to but if small groups of mostly noobies get crushed everytime they play, the steam release will end us.

And frankly your average modern solo pugger could use a little show in team work from time to time.


I just don't think that putting the cues together will spell the doom of the game but there's no way to develop reliable data on the subject unless we go all-in.

[Pjwned]

Deathlike, on 23 August 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

...

In order to get better, you have to acknowledge you have stuff to work on.

If you don't want to work on getting better, complaining about a system doesn't help your argument (if you don't care about your loadout, then you shouldn't be worried about the results, and as a consequence... the system in question isn't necessarily the problem).

So...what, if I don't strive to be top-tier competitive then I don't need to care about the outcome of my matches or how rewarding they are or how much of an un-fun shitfest stomp it is because I'm supposed to be cannon fodder for the elder gods of the game?

Tell me how I'm wrong because that's a really garbage attitude to have if I'm right.

[Kjudoon]

Nyden you just argued for the majority of my points this entire thread. You realize that, yes? You came out with different conclusions though... So i dont know where you got lost.

Btw... Really. Use the lfg function and try out playing in a 2 or 3 man in the group queue for a few hundred matches and see what it is like. Make sure to try all modes Nd even pug a little in CW. Learn what its like first hand on the clan front and IS front.

I am closing in on 6000 drops and can say it does lend a whole new perspective to your view of the game.

You are right when you said you dont understand and that is by your own admission.

[Ace Selin]

Ok so we leave the solo Q and merge group Q into CW... job done.

[Kjudoon]

Well thatd end the small casual group of 2-4 players. If we shoved all 5+ teams in cw it would help but again tick off a smaller group of casual players. Like less than 7% to steal a number from Russ.