220 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

People fear critical hits because OMG! RANDOM! IN MY SHOOTER!

The whole point of having health is that it makes things less random. It also allows bigger weapons to have more hitpoints so it takes more crit damage to knock out an AC/20 than an AC/10.

Quote

I agree it's not an ideal solution, but this is why it was done, and why critseeking weapons in TT (LBX, MG, SRM) are not good in this game.

Nah thats got very little to do with it. They could increase the crit multipliers and make critseeking weapons utterly obliterate weapons/equipment in exposed locations and they would still be terrible compared to pinpoint damage weapons. The main reason crit seeking weapons suck is because pinpoint damage is way too good.

It also doesnt help that most pinpoint damage weapons are much better at critting than spread weapons due to the fact they do 10+ damage which is whats required to destroy most weapons/equipment (that's easily fixed though by lowering the crit multiplier of pinpoint weapons below x1.0).

You cant create a system where critical hits matter unless you also nerf pinpoint damage. Because destroying an entire location with pinpoint damage will always be easier than critting that location out. The only way critseeking weapons can work is if you first reach some equilibrium between pinpoint damage and critseeking damage where both are roughly equal in effectiveness. Battletech reached that equilibrium because in battletech you needed both types of weapons. MWO still has a long ways to go to get there...

Quote

I think having a big pool of skill trees, and being able to select which ones you want on any chassis when you get to that elite level or w/e would be good. So you could put speed tweak on an assault but that takes one of your slots.

Yeah you could do it through pilot skill trees as well. But if you want speed tweak there should be a tradeoff for it. Putting speed tweak on a timberwolf should mean having to give up something equally good from a different skill tree.

Part of the problem with the timberwolf is that it does everything good so dividing the current mech skills into different pilot skill trees would force you to choose whether you want a striker/brawler timberwolf or a harasser/flanker timberwolf but you wouldnt be able to have both. Do you want better heat dissipation and weapon cooldown or do you want speed tweak and faster turning? Those are the kinds of choices skill trees should force players to make.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Yep, definitely huggy bear MechWarrior. Don't do anything to disturb the laser groove crowd like scary missiles or Battle Tech styled Gauss Rifles and keep those PPCs useless. Come on PGI give us Battle Tech's MechWarrior and let the pieces fall where they fall. They will learn to play a multi-tactic MechWarrior game and love it.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Missiles haven't always been terrible weapons. They were actually the Meta at one point...that point being up to 90 damage from a single SRM6...splash damage did nasty things to small mechs.

They also had 2.5 damage per missile at that point, so even without the splash they were made dangerous. Artemis also affected their flight path more significantly, having optimal convergence paths at set distances. 90 and 250M?

Present Artemis just cuts down Spread by 34%. Very boring compared to previous iterations.

Even LRMs were a threat...largely because of the splash headshotting most mechs instantly (hotpatched quickly). 1.8 damage per LRM was big as well.

Then game the Giga-nerfs. 1.5 damage SRMs, and 0.7 damage for LRMs...we aren't in those dark days anymore, but not far off.
LRMs being largely rubbish because of their travel speed and the Jesus Box preventing LoS locks without paying the taxes, and SRMs because their 11M CoF spread prevents much damage application where you want it until you facehug at 10M.
Why not just use pinpoint weapons from 200-1200M instead? Which is ...exactly what happens.


Suggestions have been given since the days of the Giganerfs.
LRMs require more depth, due to the implications of Indirect fire and the Jesus Box, but SRMs can be done without other implications. They are short range (because of the travel time, one of the shortest effective ranges in the game) and direct fire only.


Current isSRMs are 2.15 damage per missile. A pitiful buff, not where they should be at 2.5. By Lore, they should actually be 3 damage, as they're Dead-Fire missiles.

Compared to cSRMs, I don't think 3 damage is out of the question, but a progressive 2.5 is probably best to see if that's enough. PGI's sledgehammer balance hasn't been good in the past.

Spread Values for isSRMs are as follows:
• isSRM6 Spread=5.7, CoF=11.4M
• isSRM4 Spread=5.2, CoF=10.4M
• isSRM2 Spread=4.8, CoF=9.6M
Artemis being the 34% decrease,
• isSRM6+A Spread=3.762, CoF=7.524M
• isSRM4+A Spread=3.432, CoF=6.864M
• isSRM2+A Spread=3.168, CoF=6.336M
Clan SRMs, at half the base tonnage, have 2.0 damage per missile and 0.2 additional spread per missile launcher.
• cSRM6 Spread=5.9, CoF=11.8M
• cSRM4 Spread=5.4, CoF=10.8M
• cSRM2 Spread=5.0, CoF=10M
Artemis affecting cSRMs the same way.


For 1.5 tons, 0.9 extra damage seems pitiful. At 2.5 damage, the isSRM6 would gain 3 damage, and at 3 damage, the isSRM would gain a full 6 extra damage over the cSRM6.


Spread values with Artemis are reasonable, but still fairly large.
Travel Speed could use a boost. If they go to 2.5 damage, I would bump isSRMs to 500M/s (up from 300M/s). For reference, an AC20 is 650 M/s.



For Clan SRMs, being half weight is a pretty good advantage, and likely could stay...but I want them to have a unique feel. Any buff also affects the God Tier robots more than any, as they have both the tonnage and hardpoints to utilise them, unlike the less great robots.
The idea was stream fire (same 0.05 delay as cLRMs) for smaller spread (less tubes, less weight, more accurate firing system as fluff)...but after thinking it through it's probably best to just leave them as they are, for now.



As for Streaks...I haven't used them in Months. Buff isStreaks back to 2.5 (as they've only got the 2), and let someone who knows them suggest something.




TL:DR
isSRMs
damage 2>2.5
Velocity 300>500

isSSRMs
damage 2>2.5

Clam SRMs
Current stats


That might make isSRMs powerful, but certainly not better than Gauss Vomit overall. Probably not even at 100M.

Cutting down spread is also an option.

Cool thanks for the info
I noticed your ability to look at the program
The game is like and un-calibrated volt meter

I am more interested in their ability to adjust the code making you look like a fool in a CW match for taking LRMs/SRMs

[oldradagast]

Missiles are completely worthless currently:

- Slow travel time so easy to avoid
- Built-in damage spread mechanic that makes them far weaker in a game based around pin-point instant or front-loaded damage
- Hard range limits. They either are useless at a distance or useless up close. So, either one you take, you've just given yourself a hole in your range profile in a way like no other weapon. Probably the closest equivalents are the short range of the AC20 or the close-in gap on PPC's, but those weapons have other advantages that balance them out.

Look at every meta-build on the net - Clan mechs almost never use missiles, and IS ones typically only use huge clusters of SRM's, and even that is more out of lack of anything else useful to do on a given chassis. LRM's are only used on a few awful mechs that are cursed with both missile hardpoints and an inability to brawl with SRM's.

In short, missiles are nearly useless currently outside of a few niche builds.

[Eggs Mayhem]

Sarlic, on 09 September 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

In it's current form boating the missiles is the only way to make it as a dangerous weapon.

This has been a core issue for most weapons since closed beta (once DHS made it in anyways), being forced to build your mechs around one range/weapon type. We have a mechanic to control long-term DPS (heat) but we have no real mechanic for controlling short-term DPS so massive alphas are king and boating weapons makes sure that your alphas are as precise and powerful as they can be. When a weapon gets a buff, that buff is felt most by mechs that boat that weapon and it causes balance to swing all the way in that boats favor.

What I'm getting at, short-term DPS needs a mechanic to limit it before any other balancing can be effective. There have been suggestions all up and down these forums on how to do this but I really don't think we'll see it. So we'll just continue to see the pendulum swing.

[wanderer]

Quote

The reason for having health on internal components though is that without that weapons which take up a large number of crit slots like AC10/20, gauss, ALRM20, etc are inordinately fragile, and it meant that larger weapons were destroyed pretty much the instant the armor was breached while smaller weapons would last pretty much until the section was destroyed.

That's...sorta the advantage of having multiple redundant weapon systems, ladies and gentlemen.

Quote

it takes more crit damage to knock out an AC/20 than an AC/10

The truth is that big size isn't "tougher", it just means "more potential places to wreck the target". Or rather, it should be. It doesn't help MWO's crit system that so many actually critical components have "no effect" if damaged. Actuators, engine, gyro, sensors...much like overheat, it exists for a good reason in TT but MWO suffers for lack of it.

[Khobai]

Quote

but we have no real mechanic for controlling short-term DPS

ghost heat

the problem is ghost heat doesnt link the right weapons together so it actually works

CERML and CLPL have similar firing characteristics as far as range and beam duration but are in DIFFERENT ghost heat groups so a simple mix of CERML and CLPL completely circumvents ghost heat.

Quote

The truth is that big size isn't "tougher", it just means "more potential places to wreck the target".

They tried that. AC/20s used to have 10 health, same as everything else. And nobody used them because they got critted out so easily. So they had to increase the health to 18 to get people to use them. It was especially harsh on the Atlas since such a huge portion of its combat effectiveness (lol) came from the AC/20 and its main gun was super easy to cripple.

The last thing I wanna see is the Atlas being even worse than it is now because its AC/20 is easy to crit out again.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

LRMs do 1 pt. per missile, SRMs do 2 pts.

I say bring lasers DOWN to par with the rest of the weapons. Increasing damage to meet the lasers will just drop TTK even lower.

[Eggs Mayhem]

Khobai, on 09 September 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

ghost heat

the problem is ghost heat doesnt link the right weapons together so it actually works

CERML and CLPL have similar firing characteristics as far as range and beam duration but are in DIFFERENT ghost heat groups so a simple mix of CERML and CLPL completely circumvents ghost heat.

EmperorMyrf, on 09 September 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

but we have no real mechanic for controlling short-term DPS

I threw that qualifier in there for that reason (also Gauss Rifles). We need a blanketing mechanic for controlling all short-term damage, something that will encourage chain-fire.

Edited by EmperorMyrf, 09 September 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 09 September 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Something seems off with SRMs and LBX. I see them hit a mech smack dab in the middle with a full barrage, but the damage does not seem to correlate with what my eyes see.

I admit I have no proof, but it just doesn't seem right. I wonder if the visual impacts are not where the missiles are actually going. Let's just say I will not be surprised in the least if some time down the line a bug is discovered with these two spread weapons. Either with hit registration or a visual bug.

Once upon in Open Beta...

IIRC, it was said that the red reticule implied there was a successful hit on server. A related patch around the same time, it was designed as such that weapons would "pass" through an enemy mech visually if it didn't hit (or something along those lines).

The problem however is that through many iterations later, hitreg still doesn't work as intended when the reticule is red either (it's inconsistent, like many existing things in this game).

So, you see.. unless that paperdoll is showing color changes (assuming you're doing enough damage to warrant a color change)... it's generally/woefully unreliable to see SRM hitreg work properly... if anything... if you're dealing actual damage (verified through the paperdoll) when your visual doesn't match up.. well... that's working as intended™.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 September 2015 - 03:33 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I say bring lasers DOWN to par with the rest of the weapons. Increasing damage to meet the lasers will just drop TTK even lower.

The clan lasers definitely need to be nerfed. But you can only nerf lasers in general so far.

How are you gonna make the IS SRM worth using? Are you really gonna nerf the IS ML? IS ML arnt exactly amazing weapons despite being superior to IS SRMs.

I think we need to nerf clan lasers and buff IS SRMs.

[wanderer]

Quote

They tried that. AC/20s used to have 10 health. And nobody used them because they got critted out so easily. So they had to increase the health to 18 to get people to use them.

The point is that "health" for every location in a 'Mech should be 1. Mechs that take internal damage in TT usually are losing parts almost immediately, and things like a spray of SRMs or LB-X pellets will generally scrape out everything inside in no time flat.

Instead, it's far more likely to reduce the internal structure to zero well before losing one specific section within it, unless it's that one PPC/AC20/Gauss hit that partially damages internal structure and deals a full 10+ damage to a single location. Whereupon the next significant hit wipes the internal structure out anyway...and in a total flip of Battletech function, makes the *big* guns critseekers and ruins the actual purpose of all the "Shotgun" style weaponry.

[CDLord HHGD]

Khobai, on 09 September 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

The clan lasers definitely need to be nerfed. But you can only nerf lasers in general so far.

How are you gonna make the IS SRM worth using? Are you really gonna nerf the IS ML? IS ML arnt exactly amazing weapons despite being superior to IS SRMs.

I think we need to nerf clan lasers and buff IS SRMs.

Let me say that individual lasers are fine. The problem comes from boating them.

I think we need to consider nerfs that aren't specifically against lasers, but that will affect them the most. A general heat rescale is one option thrown about. Retooling ghost heat is another option (link it to damage output and not weapons fired).

There are other options than just direct laser nerfs.

[Sadist Cain]

ooo I almost forgot/thought I dreamt about the srm6 convergence points, loved them days, just trying to balance someone at a particular distance and drilling that single component... good times

[Khobai]

Quote

The point is that "health" for every location in a 'Mech should be 1

And that worked in battletech because hit locations where random.

When you can aim for the location of your enemys weapons it kindve changes things.

Using the example of the Atlas again... people AIM to take out its AC/20, and if it only had 1 health that would be stupid. You would instantly lose your main gun at the start of every fight.

Im not disagreeing that crits should matter more, they absolutely should, im just disagreeing about how to get there. IMO making the AC/20 super easy to destroy by crits is backwards progress.

Quote

I think we need to consider nerfs that aren't specifically against lasers, but that will affect them the most. A general heat rescale is one option thrown about.

A heat rescale is just another way of saying ALL HAIL YOUR NEW GAUSS OVERLORDS.

If you do anything to make heat using weapons more prohibitive than it already is you will end up with nothing but dual gauss.

I would rather see the range decreased on lasers (and the damage decreased on clan lasers). The whole x2 max range for energy weapons has always been problematic. In tabletop, Both ML and SRM have the same 270m max range, but in MWO MLs get to deal damage beyond their optimum range (upto 540m) while SRMs are still limited to 270m.

I would like to see optimum/max range damage dropoff for energy weapons be more severe than just a linear dropoff. It should be more like an exponential dropoff. Ballistic weapons and LRMs should generally outrange Energy weapons since they consume ammo. A huge part of the problem with the current meta is all the long range weapons that dont consume ammo.

Quote

Let me say that individual lasers are fine. The problem comes from boating them.

Then why couldnt a simple ghost heat update suffice? Link all the lasers that need to be linked in the same weapon groups so no more CERML and CLPL nonsense. And lower the number of lasers that can be fired before ghost heat kicks in from 6 to 4-5. That hurts laser boating and doesnt target other weapons.

Yes ghost heat is dumb but its currently all weve got to work with.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2015 - 03:58 PM.

[wanderer]

Quote

And that worked in battletech because hit locations where random.

When you can aim for the location of your enemys weapons it kindve changes things.

Using the example of the Atlas again... people AIM to take out its AC/20, and if it only had 1 health that would be stupid. You would instantly lose your main gun at the start of every fight.

And due to the way MWO does crits, normally instead a 'Mech loses nothing before the internals drop to 0 and the entire torso is gone...before anything in it has more than one chance to go. If that. The gun is almost certainly still functional up to the second the last bit of internal structure fails and -everything- goes.

And again, it makes "armor-punchers" the ideal "crit-seekers", which is why a major role of SRMs and LB-X guns fails horribly in MWO, relegating the LB-X to "junk" and all missiles only being useful in mass quantities that compensates for their inferior damage spread.

Quote

A heat rescale is just another way of saying ALL HAIL YOUR NEW GAUSS OVERLORDS.

Speaking of Gauss, the most tonnage for a gun and it explodes when sneezed on. The only weapon in the game that actually takes crits like it should.

Quote

I would rather see the range decreased on lasers (and the damage decreased on clan lasers). The whole x2 max range for energy weapons has always been problematic. In tabletop, Both ML and SRM have the same 270m max range, but in MWO MLs get to deal damage beyond their optimum range (upto 540m) while SRMs are still limited to 270m.

Missiles should simply suffer an "AMS" gradual destruction effect as they exceed their base range, rather than self-destructing. This would mean damage reduction as they passed optimum range vs. instantly zeroing, and give bigger launchers another benefit as a missile flight would take more distance to fully disintegrate.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 09 September 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

The clan lasers definitely need to be nerfed. But you can only nerf lasers in general so far.

How are you gonna make the IS SRM worth using? Are you really gonna nerf the IS ML? IS ML arnt exactly amazing weapons despite being superior to IS SRMs.

I think we need to nerf clan lasers and buff IS SRMs.

I'm waiting for the "you just know how the game works" response. Down in the underhive where you play, right?

Next is "but Clans are supposed to be better!"

Then "Summoner has locked jjs so lasers are fine!"

Which leads us to "You guys just want everything nerfed into the ground until it's worthless!"

All of which works like an infernal chant, summoning "Yes, but this totally unrelated strawman metric about sustained dps overy 15 minutes of steady firing on alternate while using two coolshots and jumpjetting, combined with the critical chances on gauss ammo means IS lasers are better so CHECKMATE LOL" arguments.

Which all tries to avoid the fact that a you're right.

[oldradagast]

cdlord, on 09 September 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

Let me say that individual lasers are fine. The problem comes from boating them.

I think we need to consider nerfs that aren't specifically against lasers, but that will affect them the most. A general heat rescale is one option thrown about. Retooling ghost heat is another option (link it to damage output and not weapons fired).

There are other options than just direct laser nerfs.

The heart of the problem is pin-point damage. Lasers are just an effective way of delivering that damage. Until the idiocy of being able to land 40 to 50+ alphas on a single component perfectly at long ranges is fixed, this game's balance will always be floundering because any weapon system or mech that can't perform such a feat is useless. And PGI has already made it clear that they "can't" fix it, which is laughable. There's a cone of fire in effect when using jump-jets - they could just add a much smaller version of that (far less scatter) in effect at all times and just make it not apply to missiles and the problem would be far closer to being solved.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 09 September 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

The clan lasers definitely need to be nerfed. But you can only nerf lasers in general so far.

How are you gonna make the IS SRM worth using? Are you really gonna nerf the IS ML? IS ML arnt exactly amazing weapons despite being superior to IS SRMs.

I think we need to nerf clan lasers and buff IS SRMs.

I'm waiting for the "you just know how the game works" response. Down in the underhive where you play, right?

Next is "but Clans are supposed to be better!"

Then "Summoner has locked jjs so lasers are fine!"

Which leads us to "You guys just want everything nerfed into the ground until it's worthless!"

All of which works like an infernal chant, summoning "Yes, but this totally unrelated strawman metric about sustained dps overy 15 minutes of steady firing on alternate while using two coolshots and jumpjetting, combined with the critical chances on gauss ammo means IS lasers are better so CHECKMATE LOL" arguments.

Which all tries to avoid the fact that a you're right.

[Yokaiko]

Sarlic, on 09 September 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I want the totally mauling damage back we got before(?) the first invasion. All mechs were slower, as just the general gameplay. But less boating.

Rose colored glasses?

The only time my Jenners ever went slower than 140 was when they had top speed capped at 138kph
Commados going so fast it broke the game (hence the speed limit)
Hunchbacks at +116, that was a thing back when there were only 6 mechs in the game.
Dragons and Cents lived north of 90kph
Remember Lunchbox Awesomes? 375XL 7 MPLs 84kph
Cicada and Cent D always screamed around at 13ish, the Zombie cent was a comple build for a while, two MPL and SRM only monster engine.

Not sure if we were playing the same game.