129 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

IraqiWalker, on 12 September 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

I have yet to see a universe where the summoner is inferior to the thunderbolt when both have no quirks.

The Summoner should be better than the Thunderbolt, it is a mech, based off of the Thunderbolt that was designed hundreds of years later. According to lore the Summoner carries less weapons than other Clan mechs, but it can not overheat and is much more maneuverable. In MWO the Summoner Prime is nerfed because it can not toggle the LB10 from single shot to shotgun mode and the LRMS do not do full damage at less than 80 meters as they do in TT. Also the insane heat generated by JJ and Clan weapons in MWO along with DHS that are not truly DHS, the Summoner is not even close to what it should be.

[PFC Carsten]

Go lore!!

Tahawus, on 12 September 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

I suspect everyone would be happier if PGI invested in figuring out a way to give clan mech's their full capabilities of lore (yes, I'm an IS pilot), but penalizing them appropriately, Ideally, by making them work as a binary against an IS company, or giving them an equivalent penalty in the weight they bring to the fight.

[my bold, note that I am not attacking you in this post!]
Let me spell that out for ppl who do not think clanners are per se OP:
This proposal would equate to a 200 vs. 240 ton dropdeck for clans vs. IS.

And that's even without the traditional clan bidding, where commanders bid away forces from each other in order to gain the right to take a planet.

Consider this in all the proposals along with the stereotypic claim "Clans being OP is lore".


edit:
And please, hard-force invulnerable back-armor for IS for the first shot/alpha, because clanners cannot fire at an Opponents back from an ambush. It's the lore.

edit2: And thanks to an earlier poster pointing out shooting at another's target or using artillery is alos out of the question.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 13 September 2015 - 12:46 AM.

[White Bear 84]

IraqiWalker, on 12 September 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

Why are people treating this like it's a final product?

Cause people

1. Do not read things properly (crux of the issue)

2. Are scared their babies gonna get nerfed to hell (who knows)

3. Are scared they will not be able to rely on meta (s**t happens)

4. Are scared OP mechs will be less op. (s**t happens)

5. Are scared that un-OP mechs will get even worse.. (legit concern, but counter to the goal of the PTS)

1 Dose of stupidity, 4 doses of (potentially irrational) fear.

Edited by White Bear 84, 13 September 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[Musashi Alexander]

Is the PTS still live? I get nothing but 'a network error has occurred' when I try to log on. Normal game is fine, just PTS seems to not work.

[stjobe]

Musashi Alexander, on 13 September 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

Is the PTS still live? I get nothing but 'a network error has occurred' when I try to log on. Normal game is fine, just PTS seems to not work.

Nope. Paul took his ball and went home.

Why this thread isn't updated with that information, I couldn't tell.

[Musashi Alexander]

stjobe, on 13 September 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Nope. Paul took his ball and went home.

Why this thread isn't updated with that information, I couldn't tell.

Thanks Stjobe, I hadn't seen that other thread.

[Frost Lord]

Night Thastus, on 12 September 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

The problem is with the whole "Binary vs company" or "10 v 12" is that that ONLY works for CW. In pug drops, the matches are mixed, so it wouldn't work at all. Therefore they need to quirk/balance 'Mechs outside of numbers.

they could make it so you have a IS mech and a clan mech set before you drop and games are all is mech or all clan mech

[K19]

The test is being proposed and a big mistake. This should be only by you and not by players. Because type of players already very spoiled the game, they always lose, instead of learning. Do not you think that's enough.

[Nexano]

I'm not sure how to put this. Well... currently new quirks system are total... sh.. a "bad thing"... yes.
Positive moments:
1)Sensor and detecting delay looks intresting and promising. Still you can just release normal ECM, C3 Slave/master systems.
Well thats all for now, sorry.
Negative moments:
1) "Hodgepodge" - currently quirks form are looking totally evil to players perception. Worst factore here it's thats ppl don't want test things that's they don't understand at all. So you just crashed 80% of potential testers - hey got scared and runned away. Zero optimization like a bonus structure in each component instead of % bonus to all mech.
2) No weapon quirks. Yes - if you wan't to balance IS|Clans you realy shoud hold in mind that's clans are currently abusing long range, and only way to counter it - come in close. This works for experienced teams. But in the same moment - if clans make mech optimized for close-mid range IS will be crashed in close same as at long range. Currently Clangauss clan Med and LRG lasers are abusing most.

Overall.

In reality current IS quirks are NOT ENOUGHT. They push some IS mechs effecienty at top, but most of IS mechs are still useless trash. I will ignore clan-pugs that's cry at every courner asking to nerf something and expecting to mech carry for them instead of getting some piloting skills.
Currently my Unit involved in Major MWO league fights. And... what i want to say 95% of IS unit dropdeck is Clan mechs. Because tournament can't be overcomed by walking trash mech aganist OP clantech. After ACH has come to clans i'm really doubting about PGI wanting to make balance at all, because ACH currently mech overcoming ANY other light mech including other clan mechs, current quirks nerf don't really changed anything - it's still can tank more effectivley than 100tons assalt.
Currently no exist rules thats saying about clans having OP geometry but some of them really have it(well most of them - as example Ebon Jaguar are twice more small then Thunderbolt).

Well that's too popular topics i guess. Dear PGI just don't trow crude unfiltered scripts into players, this don't help you get any feedback(well... mostly).
I'm suggest you to mark each mech model in quirks strings something like: Brauler(quirks is Bla bla bla), Scout(quirks is bla bla bla) otherwise ppl just don't get what to test on current mech.

Hell i'm wasted to much my time on this... Regards...

Edited by Nexano, 13 September 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Pepito Sbazzeguti]

Need some clarifications:

- What is exactly Target acquisition delay? Is it expressed in seconds?

- Which are short, medium and long distances in mt for the target scan time?

- Target scan time is expressed in % variations so wich are the default time value for short medium and long target scan time?

[Threat Doc]

LordLosh, on 11 September 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

I don't want to be negative but i have heard nothing good about this re-balance (forums, in game chat, redit etc) and I'm questioning why we are trying so hard to redesign the wheel? You just have to many variables going on here with to many variants and mechs to try to achieve a perfect balance. most strategy games focus on 3 sides. they achieve a semi balance with counters for each side. We have 8! four weight classes for IS and Clan. Then you add into the mix different mechs and variants! IMPOSSIBLE! I have no solutions for you other then we were in an alright place and we knew what mechs were OP, we should have just kept slightly nerfing them to make others more viable? hell i don't even know if that would have worked but starting over to me seems dumb.

It IS IMPOSSIBLE to balance the 'Mechs and all of their variants against one another, but PGI couldn't give a **** about that. However, PGI CAN balance the teams in the GAMES against one another.

The idea behind using a Battle Value, and not this stupid-ass four-point ******** they're doing, is because the numbers can change based on the custom designs of the players, and those numbers can be modified, WHEN THE 'MECH IS SAVED, by the combined and distinct numbers ALREADY TRACKED in MWO for the player of that 'Mech. If a 'Mech has an SRM-6, an AC/5, and two Medium Lasers, and the combined and averaged hit percentages, general KDR, and how the pilot treats the 'Mech as compared to how it's supposed to be used to keep it from being damaged, the scores for the pilot are going to be different than using a completely different loadout. The by-loadout piloting abilities of the MechWarrior modify the overall Battle Value of the 'Mech by a percentage determined by that pilot rating.

Then, when the buckets are filled up for games, the 'Mech numbers are all thrown into a bucket together, without concern for putting specific 'Mech tonnage classes together, because the Battle Values are already modified by the PSR factors I mentioned, above. The ONLY difference is, the game now has to determine how many more 'Mechs any one team may need over another to make the game as even as possible, within 5% of the other team's total Battle Value.

Will PGI hear this? No, it will be another two damn years before they figure out that those of us who've been advocating for Battle Value all this time, are right!!!

Oh, and guess what PGI... these could easily be used for various game modes in Community Warfare, for the sake of moving forward Objective-Based Warfare, for reconnaissance missions, for minor and major skirmishes, for various raid types, and for planetary assaults, as well. The highly restrictive nature of the available game modes in the game, right now, would be a thing of the past with institutionalized Battle Value, but yes, you want to re-invent the wheel, PGI.

Come on... you've taken a simple step forward, now take the rest... go back and re-read, word-by-word, and make certain you understand every single word I have written, here and, if you should need clarification, you will then PM me, please? I will be most happy to sit down with you face-to-face, as I'm less than 120 miles away, and I have my passport, and explain anything you need to have expounded upon. But, right now, with the four point diamond BS you're putting together, you're MISSING THE DAMN POINT!

Don't try to balance the 'Mechs against one-another, as that is impossible; rather, balance the game totals for the fight, based on pilot-skill-modified-Battle Value; otherwise, you're just going to continue to do useless garbage, until you realize not listening is pretty damned ridiculous.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 13 September 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Kay Wolf, on 13 September 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

It IS IMPOSSIBLE to balance the 'Mechs and all of their variants against one another, but PGI couldn't give a **** about that. However, PGI CAN balance the teams in the GAMES against one another.

The idea behind using a Battle Value, and not this stupid-ass four-point ******** they're doing, is because the numbers can change based on the custom designs of the players, and those numbers can be modified, WHEN THE 'MECH IS SAVED, by the combined and distinct numbers ALREADY TRACKED in MWO for the player of that 'Mech. If a 'Mech has an SRM-6, an AC/5, and two Medium Lasers, and the combined and averaged hit percentages, general KDR, and how the pilot treats the 'Mech as compared to how it's supposed to be used to keep it from being damaged, the scores for the pilot are going to be different than using a completely different loadout. The by-loadout piloting abilities of the MechWarrior modify the overall Battle Value of the 'Mech by a percentage determined by that pilot rating.

Then, when the buckets are filled up for games, the 'Mech numbers are all thrown into a bucket together, without concern for putting specific 'Mech tonnage classes together, because the Battle Values are already modified by the PSR factors I mentioned, above. The ONLY difference is, the game now has to determine how many more 'Mechs any one team may need over another to make the game as even as possible, within 5% of the other team's total Battle Value.

Will PGI hear this? No, it will be another two damn years before they figure out that those of us who've been advocating for Battle Value all this time, are right!!!

Oh, and guess what PGI... these could easily be used for various game modes in Community Warfare, for the sake of moving forward Objective-Based Warfare, for reconnaissance missions, for minor and major skirmishes, for various raid types, and for planetary assaults, as well. The highly restrictive nature of the available game modes in the game, right now, would be a thing of the past with institutionalized Battle Value, but yes, you want to re-invent the wheel, PGI.

Come on... you've taken a simple step forward, now take the rest... go back and re-read, word-by-word, and make certain you understand every single word I have written, here and, if you should need clarification, you will then PM me, please? I will be most happy to sit down with you face-to-face, as I'm less than 120 miles away, and I have my passport, and explain anything you need to have expounded upon. But, right now, with the four point diamond BS you're putting together, you're MISSING THE DAMN POINT!

This whole thing rests on asymmetric teams. Something PGI tried to do, and couldn't

[Mechteric]

Hmm should have boosted everyone's MC and GXP over the weekend, wonder why they didn't to begin with?

[Threat Doc]

IraqiWalker, on 13 September 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

This whole thing rests on asymmetric teams. Something PGI tried to do, and couldn't

No, sir, that wasn't it... the problem wasn't in asymmetric teams, it was the fact they could have all numbers on a team except 11; so, 1 to 10, and 12, but not 11 'Mechs. To the best of my knowledge, they only said they couldn't do anything with asymmetric teams; they also said they couldn't do what they're trying to do, now, and they've said a lot of things they couldn't, or wouldn't do, and they've been figuring things out a bit at a time and getting it implemented.

I'm not certain what it would take to make asymmetric teams, but I have a feeling it's similar to what they've been doing to relax all of the controlling nonsense code they've had, thus far, and are now working to 'relax' or get rid of altogether. Basically, and all of this is my opinion, but I think all but what I'm about to say has been informed opinion, PGIs programmers have programmed themselves into a corner on a lot of different issues, but bit-by-bit, baby-step-by-baby-step, they are learning how to get out of that. They've already come out of a lot of different problems they said they couldn't do anything with, and the game has been improving, as a result, and that's pretty damned awesome for those programmers and engineers working the problems.

However, it's the leadership of PGI I have a real problem with, as they continually say they are paying attention -while a few things this community has wanted, for the better, have happened, the most important things have not-, while their actions scream otherwise. Now, I will say kudos to them for finally starting to look at the balance issue from a different perspective, but having said that, their change in perspective has not gone far enough. They need to push the envelope, get outside of the upper-right corner of that box and really see where they can go, rather than moving from one point of stagnation to a slightly higher point of stagnation. If they will do that, and turn the internal limitations of Elo and Tonnage to the external sky-is-the-limit numbers that would be afforded by a PSR-modified Battle Value and buckets for teams, they could hand limitation controls over to the Commander's of the teams taking place in Community Warfare, could open the types of games available for play from the one mode they have, now, to the board-game and computer-game based contracts, so the limitations are based solely on two factors, the type of game being played, and the limitations further agreed to by the Commanders.

In the solo/PUG queue this would mean matching buckets within 5% of one another, where there could still be 12 'Mechs per team on the field, but for every Elite player on the field you would need a Green one, for every Veteran a Regular on the same team, and then you deal with limitations of PSR-modified Battle Value for those 'Mechs. So, if you had a bunch of Elite players on one side, they might all be required to take Medium 'Mechs, while the other team would consist of a group of people whose total PSR-modified BV falls within 5% of the other team, but the chosen bucket solo players will be chosen quickly to help outfit the teams as they are launched, with whomever launched the team first -they won't know it, of course-, just like they do, now, but without all the complex nonsense that has gone before.

I swear, PGI works so hard at applying band-****, it's like they are forcibly pushing away from doing anything that makes sense or sticks to the actual established fabric of the game.

[PraetorGix]

Why isn't here updated info? Are they re-releasing the PTS on monday or what?

[Desintegrator]

Nice to hear that. I'm looking forward for the re-balancing.

Lets hope that the Meta builds die as quick, as the Victor Jump Sniper in the past.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Kay Wolf, on 13 September 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

It IS IMPOSSIBLE to balance the 'Mechs and all of their variants against one another, but PGI couldn't give a **** about that. However, PGI CAN balance the teams in the GAMES against one another.

The idea behind using a Battle Value, and not this stupid-ass four-point ******** they're doing, is because the numbers can change based on the custom designs of the players, and those numbers can be modified, WHEN THE 'MECH IS SAVED, by the combined and distinct numbers ALREADY TRACKED in MWO for the player of that 'Mech. If a 'Mech has an SRM-6, an AC/5, and two Medium Lasers, and the combined and averaged hit percentages, general KDR, and how the pilot treats the 'Mech as compared to how it's supposed to be used to keep it from being damaged, the scores for the pilot are going to be different than using a completely different loadout. The by-loadout piloting abilities of the MechWarrior modify the overall Battle Value of the 'Mech by a percentage determined by that pilot rating.

Then, when the buckets are filled up for games, the 'Mech numbers are all thrown into a bucket together, without concern for putting specific 'Mech tonnage classes together, because the Battle Values are already modified by the PSR factors I mentioned, above. The ONLY difference is, the game now has to determine how many more 'Mechs any one team may need over another to make the game as even as possible, within 5% of the other team's total Battle Value.

Will PGI hear this? No, it will be another two damn years before they figure out that those of us who've been advocating for Battle Value all this time, are right!!!

Oh, and guess what PGI... these could easily be used for various game modes in Community Warfare, for the sake of moving forward Objective-Based Warfare, for reconnaissance missions, for minor and major skirmishes, for various raid types, and for planetary assaults, as well. The highly restrictive nature of the available game modes in the game, right now, would be a thing of the past with institutionalized Battle Value, but yes, you want to re-invent the wheel, PGI.

Come on... you've taken a simple step forward, now take the rest... go back and re-read, word-by-word, and make certain you understand every single word I have written, here and, if you should need clarification, you will then PM me, please? I will be most happy to sit down with you face-to-face, as I'm less than 120 miles away, and I have my passport, and explain anything you need to have expounded upon. But, right now, with the four point diamond BS you're putting together, you're MISSING THE DAMN POINT!

Don't try to balance the 'Mechs against one-another, as that is impossible; rather, balance the game totals for the fight, based on pilot-skill-modified-Battle Value; otherwise, you're just going to continue to do useless garbage, until you realize not listening is pretty damned ridiculous.

If they had such a super program that could predict exactly how good any player would be at any given time in a mech, I would hope they wouldn't use it. The idea of every match being perfectly even sounds really dry and boring. Battle-value combined with player tiers is one thing, but designing a match so nobody can fight against a pilot worse or better than them sounds boring. I'd rather get stomped sometimes so i CAN stomp sometimes.

Luckily no system is going to be able to predict player skill that accurately in this day in age.

[mechbane]

wow moaning that the weapon quirks are removed! seriously! if you need weapon quirks to keep pace with the game and player skill levels then you are a bad pilot and should quit playing instead of trying to run as a overpowered solo player in a team focused game! the new system is a god send and will bring the game back inline with how its meant to be I.E, light mechs as scouts and not 10 laser shooting, back stabbing, 1 hit alpha strike nukes!
LRM boats should be scout dependent, mediums should be work horses and assaults should be the slow, well armed damage dealers,
as it stands im seeing assaults scouting, mediums packing more punch then assaults and lights ripping teams apart alone! this is an insult to battletech and its die hard fans,
so please stop moaning about quirks you should not have in the first place and play the game as it was intended to be played!!
some mechs are by far better then others and some mechs are better then others with the right pilot in control, skill comes from practice so instead of raging about your light not being able to kill a direwhale alone anymore, go and practice in said light and do your job as a light (scout, cap, narc and tagger) or just uninstall and let the rest of us enjoy the game!

I for one can not wait for a battle of strategic thought rather then a C.O.D clone!

[Delta1262 Scorch]

I agree with mechbane here, actually the most potential i saw in changes was the enemy detection range, that was something like 400-500m for my heavy mechs. And i see a lot of opportunities and variations for the game here. It's great when snipers wouldn't be glowing in a kilometer distances right when they showing their head, and having a LRM shower(and camos will play much more role). LRM-boats will actually need that assist from scouts, spotting targets, TAG will be finally useful not only for spotting someone specific under ECM protection. It's just great for fnanking tactics, now not only for ECM-carriers, and you should watch your sides.
About new specific quirks - the new grant's you more freedom in building something specific, if you need better brawler - here you have more accel/deccel speed, need to counter lights - here is quirks with torso angle and movement speed. Tanking damage - structure HP bonuses.
What about the old weapon quirks. Piloting skills, yes - they must give you an edge in fight, but that's the skills and not some quirk-based meta build, that requires no skill at all, and gives supremasy above all other variants of the same mech, and many other mechs of even higher tonnage and class. As for me, that's the interesting point here, and not the: or you build it that way, or it sucks.

[Lucky Noob]

Ty for the Update Paul, i look forward to the next Test. please make sure we get an Clear Point of what you like to be tested so we can provide Viable Feedback.