240 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Sug, on 19 September 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

And get rid of Fast Fire while you're at it.

THEM 5% COOLDOWNS, MANG, MAKING TEE TEE KAY SO LOW BRAH

[Khobai]

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The current penalty isn't enough

What are you a sadist? Why do you want to inflict penalties on everyone? Nobody in their right mind wants more movement penalties in this game. Slow assaults like the dire wolf can barely get up hills as is. And you want to penalize their speed even more? Thats so ridiculous. Plus all the other mechs it nerfs into the ground.

The better solution is to buff the IS XL so it can survive a side torso hit. Or introduce the Light Fusion Engine.

And if additional penalties are absolutely needed than losing torso twist speed makes WAY more sense...


Its the myomer bundles in the legs that move the mech. The mechs engine just provides power it doesnt provide any kindve mechanical assistance to move the legs. We know from battletech that even a damaged engine still produces more than enough power to move a mech full speed, the damaged engine just has problems with heat containment of the fusion reaction. When an engine takes hits its mostly the fusion containment system being damaged not its ability to provide power.

But there are mechanical elements in the side torso which would help the mech torso twist. So it makes sense losing a side torso would make you torso twist slower.

CXL = losing side torso makes you lose half your DHS and -20% torso twist speed
IS XL = losing side torso makes you lose half your internal HS and -30% torso twist speed

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ok i want to Make this Clear,

the Proposed,
=Concept #1 Speed Penalty=
the 30% IS-XL and 20% Clan-XL
-
and the Proposed,
=Concept #2 Structure Buff=
the STD +10-20 and IS-XL +10-15 Structure
-
Are Starting Points!,
i would rather Start small and work to Balance,
then Nerf into Uselessness then try to ask for Buffs,

[Khobai]

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=Concept #1 Speed Penalty=
the 30% IS-XL and 20% Clan-XL

No.

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the STD +10-20 and IS-XL +10-15 Structure

Again. No.

STD engines already have an advantage over CXL. They can survive both side torsos being destroyed. They also give more crit slots.

As for IS-XL, if its already being buffed to survive a side torso hit, why should it get a structure buff too, that makes it BETTER than a CXL.

[Sputty]

Standard engines offer no real advantage to CXL at all. Surviving with a center torso alone is meaningless. The amount of weapons left on a mech, if there are any at all in the CT or head, is incredibly limited. Comparing crit slots from IS to Clans is awful as well because everything clan uses up fewer crit slots so any crit slots lost while using a CXL is made up for numerous times over with clan weapons and heat sinks.

[Khobai]

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Standard engines offer no real advantage to CXL at all. Surviving with a center torso alone is meaningless.

Really changing engine rating isnt an advantage?

Locked engine ratings suck dude. It makes mechs like the Executioner pretty awful even with CXL.

The only clan mechs that are really powerful are the ones with properly sized engines for their tonnage. The rest are all screwed up and mostly inferior to IS mechs.

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The amount of weapons left on a mech, if there are any at all in the CT or head, is incredibly limited.

Clearly you dont know how to play zombie mechs. Ive had YLWs survive down to 9% that still have weapons.

STD engines definitely have their uses on certain mechs.

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Comparing crit slots from IS to Clans is awful as well because everything clan uses up fewer crit slots so any crit slots lost while using a CXL is made up for numerous times over with clan weapons and heat sinks.

And IS get insane weapon quirks that make their weapons better than clan weapons in a lot of cases. And were right back to square one with you ignoring the advantages IS mechs get...

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Really changing engine rating isnt an advantage?

That's not a property of the STD engine, that's a property of Battlemechs.

The Stooping Hawk and Kingfisher Clam Omnis wouldn't get to change their STD engine ratings.

[Khobai]

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That's not a property of the STD engine, that's a property of Battlemechs.

The Stooping Hawk and Kingfisher Clam Omnis wouldn't get to change their STD engine ratings.

But when youre comparing IS engines to Clan engines the ability to change engine rating needs to be factored into the comparison.

An IS XL that can survive a side torso, get more structure, AND change its rating would be outright superior to CXL.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

STD engines already have an advantage over CXL. They can survive both side torsos being destroyed. They also give more crit slots.

As for IS-XL, if its already being buffed to survive a side torso hit, why should it get a structure buff too, that makes it BETTER than a CXL.

when Clan get the IICs which are BattleMechs,
what Advantage does a C-STD have over a C-XL?
at this point not much half the tonnage to survive 1 more ST loss?

if no one wants the Speed Penalty
then the Structure bonus to STD CT and IS-XL STs are the best option after that i think,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 September 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

But when youre comparing IS engines to Clan engines the ability to change engine rating needs to be factored into the comparison.

IS Omnimechs like the Avatar and Sunder feel sad.

[Deathpactt]

I think first idea is realy solid and can be a big factor at clan-IS balance. this idea also opens up alot of new viable mechs and variants.

[Khobai]

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when Clan get the IICs which are BattleMechs,
what Advantage does a C-STD have over a C-XL?

A couple.
1) side torso destruction doesnt result in losing internal heatsinks
2) can survive both side torsos being destroyed
3) get more crit slots and can fit certain weapon combos in side torsos you cant with clan xl

Not saying theyre equal but the advantages are there.

But I also said I support nerfing C-XL if its absolutely required, just not a speed penalty, but rather a torso twist penalty. The speed penalty is dumb and over-penalizing.

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at this point not much half the tonnage to survive 1 more ST loss?

tonnage isnt really an issue for most clan mechs. CERML do high damage and weigh practically nothing. The IIC mechs would have no problem using fast STD engines and just spamming CERML with the remaining tonnage. because fast mechs that laser vomit is an effective way to play the game for clans.

clan weapon balance is still a huge part of the problem. Nerfing clan lasers makes far more sense to me than going after CXL. Not every clan mech that uses CXL is overpowered. But clan lasers are overpowered on every clan mech that uses them.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Ruswarr]

Dunno if it was suggested here but I remember one interesting idea I've seen somewhwere.
The idea is that losing ST for IS XL engine still means death, but not the same instant ST is blown; to give IS mech some time before it will be considered destroyed to ST loss. It gives advantage and a chance for XL IS mech to at least fight back while not obsoleting STD engine as ST loss still means death.

[Zordicron]

FupDup, on 19 September 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

That's not a property of the STD engine, that's a property of Battlemechs.

The Stooping Hawk and Kingfisher Clam Omnis wouldn't get to change their STD engine ratings.

True.


So clammer players are up and arms about changing clammer XL?

Fine.

Buff IS XL some how, maybe give it the stand alone speed nerf in exchange, or something totally different! then leave clammer Xl alone as it is.

In conjunction with IS XL buff, give a serious durability buff to STD engines, you know, because an IS XL300 is 15.5 tons and a STD is 25. What would your clammer mech do with 9.5 tons of extra space? IS needs a STD to survive a single ST destroyed, and it costs 9.5 tons(using a very common engine size for example) to do it. Make 9.5 tons give you enough ST structure to survive an extra gauss round then(or an AC20 even), and some CT to boot.

I am all about increaseing mech durability in the face of Russ and Paul basically saying they arent messing with weapons anymore just quirks. unless some other mechanic is put into the game to stop 50+point laser barf.

Leave clan Xl alone
Buff IS XL in some give/take way to allow for a ST destruction
Give significant structure buffs to STD engines to keep a place for them in the game.

There ya go, no nerfs, all buffs, and only in durability- so no firepower creep ********.




Edit: here how about this for IS XL-
IS XL now wont result in death at loss of one ST
IS XL ST destruction will create:
-10% top speed
minimum heat set to 25%. This means, heat will not dissipate below 25%.

So you have some movement penalty, and you have a situation where the player has to manage heat a lot closer, and essentially loses some alpha strike ability because loss of capacity.

Edited by Eldagore, 19 September 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Johnny Z]

AEgg, on 19 September 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Making clan XL kill on torso loss would make a large number of clan assaults and heavies unplayably bad, because they can't choose not to use an XL.

Why not just double or triple the current heat penalty so it's actually noticeable and leave it at that?

This is an idea I hadnt thought of. Make Omni XL poof on side torso loss as well but allow Omni mechs to use Inner Sphere standards and change engines. To make this fair maybe make Inner Spere heat sinks two slots instead of 3 like the Omni double heat sinks.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

What are you a sadist? Why do you want to inflict penalties on everyone? Nobody in their right mind wants more movement penalties in this game. Slow assaults like the dire wolf can barely get up hills as is. And you want to penalize their speed even more? Thats so ridiculous. Plus all the other mechs it nerfs into the ground.

It's not enough of a penalty because you can have 10 crit slot engines with 50% weight savings, fine, but it's not fine when losing 20% of the engine also means practically no penalty.

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The better solution is to buff the IS XL so it can survive a side torso hit.

I still don't agree with that because IS XL engines are fine as is.

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Or introduce the Light Fusion Engine.

I agree with introducing the LFE but it would also need to be properly balanced, which would mean having a proper penalty for losing 20% of the engine and that's what cXL needs as well.

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And if additional penalties are absolutely needed than losing torso twist speed makes WAY more sense...

Its the myomer bundles in the legs that move the mech. The mechs engine just provides power it doesnt provide any kindve mechanical assistance to move the legs. We know from battletech that even a damaged engine still produces more than enough power to move a mech full speed, the damaged engine just has problems with heat containment of the fusion reaction. When an engine takes hits its mostly the fusion containment system being damaged not its ability to provide power.

But there are mechanical elements in the side torso which would help the mech torso twist. So it makes sense losing a side torso would make you torso twist slower.

My response would be to just largely ignore the lore because it's not much of a stretch to say losing 20% of the engine means losing 20% speed in the absence of heat penalties (which did affect movement, as well as other things) that were present in the source material.

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CXL = losing side torso makes you lose half your DHS and -20% torso twist speed
IS XL = losing side torso makes you lose half your internal HS and -30% torso twist speed

If you wanted to avoid a speed penalty so greatly as to inflict even more of a heatsink penalty (which is currently a reasonable penalty to heatsinks, there just needs to be more of a penalty for losing 2 engine crits than just that) and lose torso twist speed, then sure I guess that works.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 September 2015 - 10:57 AM.

[Sug]

FupDup, on 19 September 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

THEM 5% COOLDOWNS, MANG, MAKING TEE TEE KAY SO LOW BRAH

It all adds up.

[Khobai]

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It's not enough of a penalty because you can have 10 crit slot engines with 50% weight savings, fine, but it's not fine when losing 20% of the engine also means practically no penalty.

Not enough of a penalty to what? Timberwolves and Direwolves?

Trust me when a Kitfox loses its side torso theres enough of a penalty there to make the Kitfox wish it had its side torso back. The Kitfox isnt like a direwolf that can lose a side torso and still have more firepower than an Atlas.

The problem is youre just looking at the 2-3 overpowered clan mechs and trying to justify a blanket nerf on ALL clan mechs because of it. Not all clan mechs are as bad as timberwolfs and direwolves. Not all clan mechs need to be nerfed as badly as youre proposing.

Thats why selectively nerfing the elements that are overpowered is always better than a blanket nerf that targets everything blindly. You think the timberwolf and direwolf are overpowered? Fine lets nerf them specifically. But leave the underpowered clan mechs alone.


That whole line of reasoning is really flawed. Its like saying "Stalkers are overpowered" "NERF ALL STD ENGINES"

The CXL isnt what inherently makes a clan mech overpowered. There are plenty of examples of clan mechs that use CXL and ARNT overpowered and are in fact inferior to their IS equivalents (i.e. Kitfox/Puma/MistLynx/etc...).

What makes a clan mech overpowered isnt CXL but rather a combination of multiple factors ranging from omnipod configurations/hardpoints, locked equipment/podspace/FF/ES, engine rating, hitboxes/scaling, and more. Overpoweredness is a product of many different elements coming together just right. Does CXL contribute as one of those elements? certainly. But its not the sole contributor by a long shot.

I dont understand this whole crusade against CXL. They really arnt contributing all that much to the balance problem. The much bigger problems are weapon balance and mech balance.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2015 - 11:25 AM.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Not enough of a penalty to what? Timberwolves and Direwolves?

Trust me when a Kitfox loses its side torso theres enough of a penalty there to make the Kitfox wish it had its side torso back.

The problem is youre just looking at the 2-3 overpowered clan mechs and trying to justify a blanket nerf on ALL clan mechs because of it. Not all clan mechs are as bad as timberwolfs and direwolves. Not all clan mechs need to be nerfed as badly as youre proposing.

Thats why selectively nerfing the elements that are overpowered is always better than a blanket nerf that targets everything blindly. You think the timberwolf and direwolf are overpowered? Fine lets nerf them specifically. But leave the underpowered clan mechs alone.

The issue is that the clan XL engine is unbalanced on any mech because the equipment itself is unbalanced, and if it negatively affects mechs that are already not in great shape then we can adjust other mechanics (such as making Ferro Fibrous armor not objectively worse than Endo Steel structure) and possibly some small mech-specific adjustments as well in the form of quirks.

Arbitrary nerfs by picking & choosing certain mechs while ignoring the actual problem is stupid, just address the problem itself and then go from there.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 19 September 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Not enough of a penalty to what? Timberwolves and Direwolves?

Trust me when a Kitfox loses its side torso theres enough of a penalty there to make the Kitfox wish it had its side torso back.

The problem is youre just looking at the 2-3 overpowered clan mechs and trying to justify a blanket nerf on ALL clan mechs because of it. Not all clan mechs are as bad as timberwolfs and direwolves. Not all clan mechs need to be nerfed as badly as youre proposing.

Thats why selectively nerfing the elements that are overpowered is always better than a blanket nerf that targets everything blindly. You think the timberwolf and direwolf are overpowered? Fine lets nerf them specifically. But leave the underpowered clan mechs alone.

I'm going to make a side-note here that the Mad Cat and Daishi are OP as a result of the construction system, not because of their own snowflake uniqueness.

...Basically, mechs in Battletech are like mixed salads. If you want to make another salad that's just as delicious, you just need to copy-paste the same ingredients (construction parts) and you'll get the same results.

In this example, the Loki and Cauldron Born share most of the ingredients that the Mad Cat uses, and thus they are also top-level gundams (just to a slightly lower extent).

Essentially, if you nerf one specific salad, but don't change the ingredients used to make that salad, then somebody might come along and build another salad with the same ingredients and make it just as tasty as the one that came before it.


To ask a rhetorical question, would the Mad Cat or Daishi be OP if they had to use purely IS tech instead of Clan tech? For this question I'll let them keep the Clan XL only, because giving them a current IS XL would be pretty unfair. The guns, DHS, and everything else though have to be IS-built.