717 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

What kills me the most about this new map is how they give us all these tools to put info on the map, but then zoom it out so far that we cant see it anyway.....

3 steps forward, 4 steps back much?

[CygnusX7]

The old mini map sucked. I'm glad they're doing something about it.. Even if it takes a few months.
..and you guys who asked for it are getting your wheel of fortune so take the positive with the negatives and be happy.

[Zolaz]

CygnusX7, on 20 June 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

The old mini map sucked. I'm glad they're doing something about it.. Even if it takes a few months.
..and you guys who asked for it are getting your wheel of fortune so take the positive with the negatives and be happy.

I didnt ask for a command wheel that the PUGs wont listen to and that you dont need with VIOP.

[InsaneRotta]

627, on 19 June 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

By the way, this makes the seismic sensor totally useless. You can maybe tell that there is a mech *somewhere* around you but that is all.

Aw ****, you're right. GG PGI

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 05:44 AM, said:

Right now, my biggest grievance is that people aren't seeing the big picture when they're playing. They see a red dorito on their minimap and the run off to chase it. And they don't realize that they just started a Nascar and their assaults are left behind, fighting 4v8.

However, it could very well be that my biggest grievance will change after this patch. Perhaps this creates new problems.

I just know that we are finally getting a bunch of features that PGI didn't even talk about for 3 years. If we have to wait 1 or 2 months for them to finally give us what I've been waiting for, that's cool. What they're doing is so important for the game, I want it implemented even without the zoom-feature, as quickly as possible. They are finally giving us more tools for teamwork, strategy and role warfare. Commanders will be able to give coordinates, scouts will be able to direct fire.

It's not exactly how we described our wishes to PGI, because the scale is a problem. But they're saying they will fix the scale with a zoom button, so it's win win.

I can't believe how short-sighted some people are being. Maybe they are too used to "deathball & brawl, bro". Too many of the people who cared about role warfare have left by now, I guess.


No worries, I'm not fretting. PGI is giving me the feature I've been asking for tomorrow. And I get to eat popcorn when the forum explodes with tears.

More salt for my popcorn, I guess.

I thought about this, but it's kinda twofold.

1) I could actually agree to some degree that people will have more of an overwatch-type of minimap, where you have a better overall clue of where the Doritos are (more specifically, the team/blue Doritos). Outside of trying to navigate through the already existing clunky minimap (because, you can't shoot and do stuff while looking at it), this is helpful... only to a degree.

2) The problem you're thinking it fixes really won't fix what ails it.

For instance, squirrels will be chased... by Assaults no less.

NASCARers will NASCAR.

Bad players ignore the minimap, even while equipping Seismic and not using it properly.


It doesn't really fix what it intends to fix.


In previous MW games... probably moreso in MW4 through Mektek was the development of actual grids. This is probably no different from what we have right now.

Ideally, you should be able to have a preset size (user defined zoom levels), so that you cover enough "relevant" grids to your position. Something like 3x3 or 4x4 worth of grids (in a brawl. you'd want to limit it to a 1x1 or 1.5x1.5 size), since I "think" those grids are 1km or "1 click" worth of a zone is what PGI has unified them to.... previously these were very inconsistent based on the size of the map (Alpine used to have a major grid size scale discrepancy compared to like River City). Basically, you should be able to see enough of the grid for what you can realistically handle (you're not going to give a crap what's between you base and the opfor's base on Assault @ Alpine - you can only realistically see what's around you - usually it's the most relevant).

I understand what PGI's "trying" to do, but the fact that not being able to "zoom in" is a complete oversight, you're going to have some issues when a brawl is happening... the density of the mechs will become rather problematic (Seismic will get indirectly nerfed until the zoom feature is implemented), and while it's likely more focus on the Doritos will be a thing ("Q" is a nice feature button people don't use often enough).

Of course, we still have people having problems using the "R" key, so I don't know what to tell you there.

"It's going to be worse before it gets better."

Edited by Deathlike, 20 June 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

razenWing, on 20 June 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Allistar: You are frustrated that we are not getting the "big picture." First of all, that's a big IF that it comes out in July or August. What if it doesn't? what if it never comes out?

The "big picture" statement was referring to people in solo queue who lose track of what the whole team is doing, because they only watch the minimap (and sometimes not even the minimap). It wasn't directed at any of you gentlemen on the forum.

My screenname is Alistair, by the way.

razenWing, on 20 June 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

You want to know what's a good well-thought out "mini-map?" Download the Mektek version of MW4, where you can have both the MAP (of what PGI is trying to roll out right now) AND radar displayed at the same time in a form of switchable toggle. If they did that, NO ONE would complain. It's the fact that it's FORCED upon us with no changeable option, that's the BS part. (Actually, I am not sure if that's mektek's work, but it's for sure in the mektek version, as I can't recall what the original MW4 is like)

I am not surprised. And the MW:Living Legends radar / map system seems better as well. I would never say that what we have now is perfect, or even that it's good in comparison to other MW games. In fact, I am still bummed that we don't have active and passive radar.

But this is a step in the right direction, at least.

razenWing, on 20 June 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

And then there's the issue, why can't they delay this "feature" until ALL the peripheries are completed? Why do they have to release it prematurely to break something that almost nobody complains about? No command wheel? Guess what, we've been living fine without 1, going another 2-3 months without one is not going to kill anyone. First of all, given the lukewarm reception to the command wheel announcement, PGI should have known to tread the water carefully.

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say it probably has to do with
1) PGI has been criticized for not putting out a lot of actual new content and new features lately, except for mechs, because they've been so focused on FW. So maybe they wanted to push out a lot of stuff at once.
2) With the world championship, I wonder if this is a feature they wanted to release early, to iron out as many bugs and unforseen issues before the finals as possible.

That's just a guess though.

razenWing, on 20 June 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

So I ask you sincerely, what if they NEVER add the fix? What if the zoomable feature won't be implemented for another year? 2 years? Will you still think this "mini" map is awesome and we are just "missing the point" then?

Hell, I could very well change my mind tomorrow, never mind next year. I don't know how bad it is. I'm just assuming that it's slightly worse, but still ok. Trying to be optimistic. But if it's terrible, then I'll probably be upset tomorrow.

razenWing, on 20 June 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Last thought, I sincerely hope you are right that this "zoom" feature will be added in a month or two. But I have far less faith than you do that PGI will actually do this. Just mark my word, June 20th, 2016. If they have it by August, you can make me eat it. Otherwise, I am going to subscribe to you with a daily "I told ya so" private message.

Oh, I'm not as committed to this as all that. I don't need to start making bets or rubbing people's faces in it. At the end of the day, we all just want the game to be as good as possible. When the game is improved, we all win. When the game is worse, we all lose.

Of course, some people count one thing as an improvement while other people count the same thing as a diminishment, if you will. And this is part of the reason I don't mind that some people are complaining, because I want the game to have more features, and other people just want more mechs and better balance. But that's a different story.

MrJeffers, on 20 June 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

There is no committed plan that there is going to be a zoom function, you are being optimistic and read way too much into it and are totally seeing the glass half full instead of empty as another poster said.

Those are fighting words, buddy.

To me, it sounded like Russ wanted to do the zoom as the conversation went on. He called it a good compromise, I believe. But yeah, that's just optimism on my part. In fact, all of the stuff I'm happy about is just optimism. They may never do zoom, the command wheel could suck, the minimap could suck, the new skill trees could suck, the infotech may be exactly as bad as the last public test (keep in mind, it was very bad for gameplay, but it had some very good promise!) and everything could go down the drain. But I'm optimistic, and I would rather encourage PGI to try all those things instead of just keeping the status quo and accepting that this is as good as it gets.

[Barkem Squirrel]

I have a feeling that the only people that will like this change are the LRM boats.

The old mini map was zoomed in enough that you could only see a few hundred meters.

[smokytehbear]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

See, this is why it's so hard to discuss with people on the forum. We never get anywhere if we pretend the world is black and white. It's pointless to say that we gained nothing.

• We gained the ability to see the whole map all the time, which is a big deal because pugs looking at the minimap will only ever see their immediate surroundings (and miss their assault lance getting swarmed by light mechs on the other side of the map, for example)
  
• We gained the ability to identify any blip on the radar at a glance. Doritos are replaced by markers for lights, mediums, heavies, assaults or multiple targets in close proximity.
  
• We gained the ability to discern where friendly mechs are located when they ask for help, spot enemies, etc.
  
• We gained a command wheel that can be connected to both the mini-map and the new skill trees, and this is indeed what PGI is planning.
  
• We got additional abilities for the company and lance commanders, beyond what we had before. People can now request airstrikes and uavs, for example.

I do appreciate your optimism. I sincerely do and wish that I could say I shared it. To pointlessly try and defend my honor that hasn't been attacked, I'm not some negative nancy that just hates every change to the status quo, or some bittervet that got screwed way back in the day by broken promises and therefore can't appreciate anything PGI does. I started playing this game in December and have had loads of fun and appreciate PGI's efforts more than not. That said, a bad idea is a bad idea and I really don't think they can swing this one to say it isn't.

• A worthwhile point. If it didn't come at the cost of value for the more common situations of assault lances getting swarmed by lights literally 30m behind you, I would agree.
  
• How exactly does this advantage anyone? I'm not denying this is a bonus we didn't have, but how does it really help? If we're about to get flanked by 3 mediums and two heavies vs. 4 heavies and a light... what's the difference? Only way I could see this help is when you've found an enemy alone. If it's an assault, even better, but I just don't see why this is great information.
  
• Disagree completely. Loss of resolution will demolish every ounce of this that we already had.
  
• Fair enough. I won't be using it I don't think, but I won't complain about a pure addition.
  
• Admitting my cynicism here, nobody you're not already on a team with in TS or something similar is going to drop an airstrike for you, even if they do understand what you're saying. But sure, another fair point because it doesn't hurt us in any way.

It's not a question of adhering to the status quo. I like the new improvements to some of the things. It's a question of knowing what parts of the status quo are negatives. PGI is currently demonstrating poor insight on this part.

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

You'd think so, but my brothers and sisters in Germany, Poland, Italy and other countries in the south / east are still struggling. Too much dubbing on tv and in cinemas.

Even norwegians are dubbing movies now. Kids are watching Harry Potter movies dubbed to Norwegian. <shudder>

Really? I thought more and more was changing to English everywhere. I was shocked in Japan to learn that every single highschooler takes English the entire time. Their whole Navy was exceptionally fluent. English actually sucks, but I guess for selfish reasons I'm happy it seems most foreigners on the internet speak it.

L A V A, on 20 June 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Agreed, this is a step forward and it will increase situational awareness.

At the present, every time I look at my full map, my mech stops.

So that problem goes away.

Turn off throttle decay you ********. XD

MadcatX, on 20 June 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

People look at the minimap in the heat of combat?

Usually I just stick with using my eyes and a bit of battlefield awareness since the advent of ECM made relying on both the minimap or the dorito a crutch. As for seismic not being able to give as precise information as it used to, well, I remember a time when there was no seismic and can't say I had many problems back then.

I will agree that the size shown (entire map) is not necessary because it's vary rare the entire map is used, my opinion is expanding by a few grids what the minimap shows is what I would have preferred.

We'll see how this plays out.

Calling the dorito a crutch because there's ECM is a little ridiculous. You wouldn't call using your ears while driving a crutch just because they don't always let you know you're about to get run over by a semi. A tool doesn't have to be useful in every situation to still be useful.

Taking our tools away is not a good thing.

Edit: Used the wrong "they're" like an idiot.

Edited by smokytehbear, 20 June 2016 - 12:35 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Well, today I have white knighted just about as much as I can stomach. I guess we'll find out tomorrow what it's like to play on the new minimap without zoom function. I don't intend to be cheerleading PGI if it's bad, but unless it's terrible, I can probably live with it.

Right now, it feels like we've taken this discussion about as far as we can without actually trying the new minimap first hand. So I'll see you here tomorrow, when the forum explodes

[MadcatX]

Novakaine, on 20 June 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

Well I for one do.
The mini map is not a damn crutch.
It shows the ebb and flow of the battle, is that one mech going left or is it the whole damn company sliding to flank you.
I mainly drive a lurm boat so it helps me with fire control and area suppression.
Just imagine a fighter pilot with his bag of Doritos on his heads up display.
Come on people get a damn clue.
Throw hat on floor and kicks the wall.

The amount of times where I got screwed because according to the mini-map, yea, it was one or two mechs flanking left. Unfortunatly the person who had eyes on the enemy formation couldn't relay to my mini-map the rest of the company flanking around under ECM.

Perhaps "crutch" is a bit too strong but pitchforks over a mini-map change?

I'm not getting on the hate train for this particular change and I usually ignore people who tell the community to "get a clue" when people disagree with them.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

Well, today I have white knighted just about as much as I can stomach. I guess we'll find out tomorrow what it's like to play on the new minimap without zoom function. I don't intend to be cheerleading PGI if it's bad, but unless it's terrible, I can probably live with it.

Right now, it feels like we've taken this discussion about as far as we can without actually trying the new minimap first hand. So I'll see you here tomorrow, when the forum explodes

My bittervet darkness is ready. I'm here for PGI's sins!

[Egg Fu]

MadcatX, on 20 June 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

People look at the minimap in the heat of combat?

Usually I just stick with using my eyes and a bit of battlefield awareness

Usually you just stick with using your eyes??? ...
Sounds like you're not using your eyes fully if you don't even glance back and forth at your mini map in the heat of combat. I know I do. I'm always trying to keep in mind who my next target will be after the first one drops as well.

Bit of battlefield awareness??? ...
Limiting yourself to not being aware of things displayed on the mini map which cannot be seen through the cockpit glass does not lend itself to better battlefield awareness. Unless of course you're Luke Skywalker?

Edited by Egg Fu, 20 June 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[smokytehbear]

MadcatX, on 20 June 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

Perhaps "crutch" is a bit too strong but pitchforks over a mini-map change?

I'm not getting on the hate train for this particular change and I usually ignore people who tell the community to "get a clue" when people disagree with them.

You forgot about our torches too.

All aboard the hate train. We'll be leaving the station when this garbage hits tomorrow.

[Scout Derek]

smokytehbear, on 20 June 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

You forgot about our torches too.

All aboard the hate train. We'll be leaving the station when this garbage hits tomorrow.

I'll be making a thread stickied to accommodate all those threads. to prevent multiple threads of the same thing like the Rescale.

[STEF_]

Zolaz, on 20 June 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

I didnt ask for a command wheel that the PUGs wont listen to and that you dont need with VIOP.

but that's nothing.
Imagine how many tards want to lead from tomorrow, using the C.Wheel.
It's going to be utterly annoying.

[Roadkill]

627, on 19 June 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

By the way, this makes the seismic sensor totally useless. You can maybe tell that there is a mech *somewhere* around you but that is all.

Nah, seismic doesn't need to pinpoint where an enemy is to be useful. Simply telling you that someone you can't see is nearby is sufficient in most cases.

[STEF_]

razenWing, on 19 June 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

Unless this is like a funny joke. Ahahahahaha, kudos... very funny.

In this July patch, pgi went full r3t4rd3d.
A lot of circus style stuff.

Well done pgi.....!!!

[AssaultPig]

it amazes me that people are willing to defend PGI for breaking a pretty fundamental UI feature

the function of the minimap is to tell you about the circumstances immediately around you; where nearby friendlies/enemies are, a close zoom of the terrain shape, etc. Putting the whole map image there would eliminate most of the utility of it even if it didn't look like putting more than 2-3 mechs in a square made them into an unreadable blob

like, in a close engagement, I don't need to see what the random clownshoes five squares away is getting up to. I need a readable map of nearby units.

[Moldur]

Once again, if you think the sky is falling, maybe you are too dependent upon the current minimap.

If you feel like seismic getting nerfed is like pulling the rug out from under you, then maybe it's a personal problem.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The example PGI provided of the new minimap shows the full map in an 8x8 grid. I counted 30 square of that map that are either completely or at least 75% out of bounds. Nearly half the space shown are out of the playable area.

Edited by Rouken Vordermark, 20 June 2016 - 02:15 PM.