831 replies to this topic

[Mirkk Defwode]

Soy, on 11 October 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

I actually don't believe the whole "pledging gigantic huge numbers for vaporware" thing.

What's next?

Million dollars for the "dev comes over and gives you oral" pledge?

Please. I think it's basically a marketing gimmick. To get people to not guilt trip over giving full-title value over to a company on the promise of a potential game. As in, "oh look someone spent 10k on this... i shouldn't feel so bad about fifty bucks..." type of thing.

I seriously don't believe that stuff. I don't. I refuse to believe there are people out there that spend that sort of money. In the first hour? The first hour? Yeah I don't believe it. Whoever those people are that give that sort of money are the sort of ******* I try and avoid in all aspects of life. I play games to escape that sort of ****, since this is, in actuality, escapism. I don't need to see ******* walking around with "i 10k'd this game" garbo.

If you don't believe in it then don't back it. The idea for Kickstarter or crowd funding in general is to give resources to people attempting to make something happen.

I backed MWT and I got burned. Funny thing is I backed MWO and am disappointed, but I don't weep or tell others to not invest in something they'd like to see or are hopeful for. This is an attempt to support a project to revive a franchise that is honestly flagging. Old fans of that franchise are yearning for a means to keep it alive and not as some ancient relic. Part of that requires time and finances to support some form of revival.

The tabletop traded hands several times in the last decade and the digital license languished in the Microsoft rights for a long time prior to Smith & Tinker attempted their first revival attempt for "Mechwarrior" the vaporized through Harmony Gold litigation. As a by-product we got Infinite Games Publishing pushing for Mechwarrior: Tactics (Failed) and Mechwarrior Online (...survived). Do all the Founder's feel like they got what they paid for? I don't know...I got what was written in and promised for my Founder's Package...I didn't get all the promises from the speeches and presentations for the game design and implementation.

That hasn't driven me into some deep dark hole cursing the world and the people working toward renewing this fictional universe. If anything I look at the disclaimer saying it isn't guaranteed and accept the risks associated with putting my money where my mouth is.

[InRev]

Soy, on 11 October 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

I actually don't believe the whole "pledging gigantic huge numbers for vaporware" thing.

All crowdfunding is is the application of the centuries old practice of investment to a specific product and/or service. Investment is as old as capitalism itself; people have been throwing money at vaguely defined ideas for hundreds of years. With crowdfunding, you just get a very specific return instead of a vague financial or economic one.

It's really not that radical a concept. Hell, if anything, there's lot less risk involved than with what a lot of venture capitalists and investment bankers are doing at any given second. At least with crowdfunding, the promised return is concrete and quantifiable.

[Tsar Bomba]

Soy, on 11 October 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

I seriously don't believe that stuff. I don't. I refuse to believe there are people out there that spend that sort of money.

It's true. There are people in the world richer than you. It's a shock, I know. but there are folks out there that have so much money that spending $10K on a game fiscally hurts them less than the $50 you drop on a game. They give it less thought, too. You (and most people) just have no idea how much money is out there and in the hands of some people.

[Soy]

deep retorts

yes crowdfunding exists and is legit

yes there are brainless people with too much money on their hands

point is, when people talk about 10k in relation to playing a video game, they lost the ******* plot. in my opinion.

[RedDragon]

Soy, on 11 October 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

point is, when people talk about 10k in relation to playing a video game, they lost the ******* plot. in my opinion.

Well, for 10.000$ you not only get the video game. It's not hard to imagine that there are people out there who worked their butts off to now have a lot of disposable income, and now they get the chance to meet the makers of a game of which they are avid fans for 30 years now, which very well may be their great dream. Personally I would be more concerned about the guys who keep spending hundreds of Dollars for new mechs in MWO. Which basically comes down to shelling out 30 bucks for a new skin to play in the same repetitive arena shooter they played for the last 3 years.

[Damocles]

Soy, on 11 October 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

point is, when people talk about 10k in relation to playing a video game, they lost the ******* plot. in my opinion.

one life to live all the money to give

[Tsar Bomba]

Soy, on 11 October 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

yes there are brainless people with too much money on their hands

No. Brainless would be spending more than you can afford on a video game. Plenty of people without tons of money do that everyday. I bet many in these forums are included at some point or another.

You obviously missed my point...

They have SO MUCH MONEY that spending $10K on a game is you ignoring that penny you see in the gutter. Are you brainless for not picking up that nasty penny? Then they aren't brainless for spending what they will never miss because they have so much on what they want in life before that life ends...

Doesn't sound 'brainless' to me.

[Soy]

I didn't miss the point. If I had that sort of disposable income, I'd be taking trips around the world, etc. Not sitting around playing freemium games or kickstarting kid dreams about old diceroll IP.

Whatever. This is my opinion, so, it is what it is. Not like I can change peoples desire to spend money on dumb stuff. We all do. I just object out of principle cuz the precedent. The bar is being lowered constantly with this stuff. First it was patches. Then it was DLC. Then microtransactions. Then blatant paywalling. Now it's what? Vaporware 10k pledges? Barf.

PS - forgot the "its just a beta for like 4 yrs" phase of gimmicks, woops.

Edited by Soy, 11 October 2015 - 06:46 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Soy, on 11 October 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

I didn't miss the point. If I had that sort of disposable income, I'd be taking trips around the world, etc. Not sitting around playing freemium games or kickstarting kid dreams about old diceroll IP.

Why not do both? Nerds don't stop being nerds when the have money . Fly to some tropical resort. Play Battletech on your $8,000 gaming laptop before you head out for drinks on the beach or while your girl or guy is getting ready for a night of gambling or bar hoping.

Anyway, I'm not one who would pledge 10k to a game (and the swag and benefits that come with it) I don't have that money to just throw around, but if I did, and I was a huge BT fan and wanted all the swag, game, and to meet Weisman and crew, why not? Money is all economics of scale. To me, 10K is a LOT of money (as it it to 98%+ of the people on the planet), but to that small amount of people who blow 10k+ a month on food and drink without batting an eye, what's 10k to go and meet people you admire and get into a game you are interested in?

Yea, I'm happy with a cool hat, banner, and some swag with open beta access, but if I was way too rich... like WAY too rich, why not? *shrug*.

[Kyle Travis]

I recently backed a small budget film kickstarter to the tune of several hundred pounds for several reasons:

I could easily afford it.
The actress running it was someone i really liked in films and i would get to meet her.
It sounded fun and I liked helping something that obviously everyone involved was passionate about.

I had a really good experience - she was lovely and I would not hesitate to do it again.

I can't self justify $2000 + so i didn;t go this far - but if I was richer i would not have hestitated.

Rich people spend much much more on "worse" stuff (IMO) - drugs, old wine, modern art.....

[Soy]

Bloody, on 11 October 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 October 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

Why not do both? Nerds don't stop being nerds when the have money . Fly to some tropical resort. Play Battletech on your $8,000 gaming laptop before you head out for drinks on the beach or while your girl or guy is getting ready for a night of gambling or bar hoping.

Anyway, I'm not one who would pledge 10k to a game (and the swag and benefits that come with it) I don't have that money to just throw around, but if I did, and I was a huge BT fan and wanted all the swag, game, and to meet Weisman and crew, why not? Money is all economics of scale. To me, 10K is a LOT of money (as it it to 98%+ of the people on the planet), but to that small amount of people who blow 10k+ a month on food and drink without batting an eye, what's 10k to go and meet people you admire and get into a game you are interested in?

Yea, I'm happy with a cool hat, banner, and some swag with open beta access, but if I was way too rich... like WAY too rich, why not? *shrug*.

I'm saying if I had that sort of disposable income, obviously what I want to do would change. People like to say if they had this or that they wouldn't change. That's usually not the case. I'd have more important stuff to do than spend 10k on this game or that game. Pretty simple. If you don't understand that or get it, fine, not my problem.

Here's the ultimate noodle baker though.................... if I had that sort of money to throw at games...................... and actually had time for that sort of stuff....................... and a desire to play.................................... instead of driving nice cars and going around the world and doing interesting things............................. instead of sitting in my chair and escaping the reality of how that is NOT my life and instead playing a FANTASY ROBOT LASER game.......................................................................

....if I *still* wanted to play games.................... I'd make my own. Wow, amazing eh. I'd learn programming, since I have the time and money to do so, and make the game I want. Like Chris Sawyer. He made everything in Roller Coaster Tycoon by himself, what a boss. Or I'd hire a bunch of wannabe interns and direct them to make a game on a budget.

--------

At the end of the day tho, people are being very naive. They think it's about people spending money. No, baby geniuses. It's about the precedent. As in, if one company finds a viable way to market overpriced garbage, they will. And gamers? Probably the most enabling hobby enthusiasts on the planet. They can't help themselves, paying lots of money, for piles of trash. Which most games are. Consider mobile gaming. Who plays that crap. Not me. Not any real gamer I know. Yet, it's mega popular. There's tons of games out there that blow. Majority of gamers have bad taste. The reason we have bad games and bad balance and this and that is because these gamer communities cannot articulate, together, what would make a game 'better' thru balance, much less cannot avoid dumping large amounts of cash out of their wallets. Where does it end? I dunno. But I say something cuz at this rate, ******* will be acting like how much they invest in a game dictates the amount of enjoyment they get out of it. Not me. Not ever. So I speak about it. Rest of yall are shameful enablers, defending 10k pledges - period.

[Lugh]

Only about 150k more for the dynamic campaign??.... oh my...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Soy, on 12 October 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

I'm saying if I had that sort of disposable income, obviously what I want to do would change. People like to say if they had this or that they wouldn't change. That's usually not the case. I'd have more important stuff to do than spend 10k on this game or that game. Pretty simple. If you don't understand that or get it, fine, not my problem.

There is no right or wrong with this.

Your whole paragraph tells me about how you view the whole kickstarter thing, how you would no longer be interested in gaming if you made it big (due to other things to do/spend money on), and how under no circumstance would you risk or spend money on what you perceive is garbage.

That's fine. The only problem is that is a very egocentric view of the world. Because you believe a certain way, you can not fathom anyone behaving different than your beliefs.

All I'm saying is, not everyone believes that way and others have different hobbies and priorities regardless of income. If they are still an avid gamer, something like that 10K package might appeal to a rich gamer. It wouldn't/doesn't appeal to you (and I do believe that is the majority), but 100% of the population doesn't conform to your belief structure.

Me personally, if I had a huge disposable income, I'd buy a huge house, a few great cars for my fiance and I. I'd go on trips all over (I'd like to go to Italy, Greece, or France), and I'd take my gaming laptop with me. Even if I wasn't traveling, I'd still play games at home. Its part of who I am and has shaped my childhood. I have no reason to give up part of myself because I have money.

If I had a lot of money for those things, I'd consider that 10K offer and meet Harebrained Schemes.. Why not? I would be spending 10K on a ton of things that meant far less. Heck, a custom paint job on a Bentley would cost more than 10K and I wouldn't care.

Even with my far more modest income, I went to Minecon in Vegas a few years back. Flights, hotel, food all was fairly expensive, but it was fun and interesting. I'm a gamer, I do stuff like that from time to time, and it's my hobby. Money would not change that.

Anyway, long story is every person doesn't share your views. You aren't wrong in thinking as you do, its just different than some other peoples point of view. People value different things and have different hobbies. Money may or may not change that. I'm not asking you to change your mind, just keep it open (even if you think it is all crazy garbage). after all, some people had bought those 10K packages and I can guarantee you they have lots of money to drop 10K. Regardless of what happens, they would get over the loss if things went south and not even feel the financial impact.

[Dulahan]

My guess is the sort of people spending 1k+ are probably people out working for Tech Companies, now making 6-7 figure incomes, but who grew up with Battletech and the Mechwarrior games.

Nostalgia is huge. And for people like that, 10k is probably less a noticeable 'ding' to their bank accounts than the $125 level is for a lot of us. Economics of Scale and all, remember. when you're rich? Your day to day costs don't really go up on the same scale. While you might eat super expensive food, you still aren't eating so much of it as to even come close to relative budget. You gas costs aren't any more than the rest. your clothing costs might be very little different, depending how you dress. Sure, that one or two expensive suit might make most of us balk, but you're still wearing the same underwear and day to day stuff the rest of us do. Hell, look at Zuckerberg, I dress better than he does! And I don't dress well at all. But I guarantee my Band T-shirts and work polos cost more than his grey shirts. It's not like he's going out and buying 10k shirts after all. And he's rich enough to get away with showing up to board meetings like that too.

I highly doubt it's Zuckerberg - I just use him as an easily recognizeable name, mind you (Though on the flipside, it wouldn't shock me entirely either, since he's of the right age group to have grown up with Mechwarrior games). But unless it is Wil Wheaton or Kluwe or someone famous who dropped the 10k, I doubt any of us could even tell if we ran into them at a Con, unless they told us.

So yeah, good on them if they can afford it. If I somehow made it big, I'd probably be dropping a lot more in this too. I'm already cringing at the $125 I'm in for, and STILL seriously considering the $275 level seriously, despite that being a significant chunk of my take home paycheck for a pay period. (That's essentially the entire amount I have left over after Loan Payments, groceries, and bills for 'luxury' use in a month)

[WarHippy]

Soy, on 12 October 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

This is the type of quote a biased mod would suspend me for 72 hours for.



I'm saying if I had that sort of disposable income, obviously what I want to do would change. People like to say if they had this or that they wouldn't change. That's usually not the case. I'd have more important stuff to do than spend 10k on this game or that game. Pretty simple. If you don't understand that or get it, fine, not my problem.

Here's the ultimate noodle baker though.................... if I had that sort of money to throw at games...................... and actually had time for that sort of stuff....................... and a desire to play.................................... instead of driving nice cars and going around the world and doing interesting things............................. instead of sitting in my chair and escaping the reality of how that is NOT my life and instead playing a FANTASY ROBOT LASER game.......................................................................

....if I *still* wanted to play games.................... I'd make my own. Wow, amazing eh. I'd learn programming, since I have the time and money to do so, and make the game I want. Like Chris Sawyer. He made everything in Roller Coaster Tycoon by himself, what a boss. Or I'd hire a bunch of wannabe interns and direct them to make a game on a budget.

--------

At the end of the day tho, people are being very naive. They think it's about people spending money. No, baby geniuses. It's about the precedent. As in, if one company finds a viable way to market overpriced garbage, they will. And gamers? Probably the most enabling hobby enthusiasts on the planet. They can't help themselves, paying lots of money, for piles of trash. Which most games are. Consider mobile gaming. Who plays that crap. Not me. Not any real gamer I know. Yet, it's mega popular. There's tons of games out there that blow. Majority of gamers have bad taste. The reason we have bad games and bad balance and this and that is because these gamer communities cannot articulate, together, what would make a game 'better' thru balance, much less cannot avoid dumping large amounts of cash out of their wallets. Where does it end? I dunno. But I say something cuz at this rate, ******* will be acting like how much they invest in a game dictates the amount of enjoyment they get out of it. Not me. Not ever. So I speak about it. Rest of yall are shameful enablers, defending 10k pledges - period.

Well now... I must say it is rather impressive to cram that much ignorance and contempt into one post. Kudos to you sir for actually typing out that drivel.

[Soy]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 October 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

There is no right or wrong with this.

Your whole paragraph tells me about how you view the whole kickstarter thing, how you would no longer be interested in gaming if you made it big (due to other things to do/spend money on), and how under no circumstance would you risk or spend money on what you perceive is garbage.

That's fine. The only problem is that is a very egocentric view of the world. Because you believe a certain way, you can not fathom anyone behaving different than your beliefs.

All I'm saying is, not everyone believes that way and others have different hobbies and priorities regardless of income. If they are still an avid gamer, something like that 10K package might appeal to a rich gamer. It wouldn't/doesn't appeal to you (and I do believe that is the majority), but 100% of the population doesn't conform to your belief structure.

Me personally, if I had a huge disposable income, I'd buy a huge house, a few great cars for my fiance and I. I'd go on trips all over (I'd like to go to Italy, Greece, or France), and I'd take my gaming laptop with me. Even if I wasn't traveling, I'd still play games at home. Its part of who I am and has shaped my childhood. I have no reason to give up part of myself because I have money.

If I had a lot of money for those things, I'd consider that 10K offer and meet Harebrained Schemes.. Why not? I would be spending 10K on a ton of things that meant far less. Heck, a custom paint job on a Bentley would cost more than 10K and I wouldn't care.

Even with my far more modest income, I went to Minecon in Vegas a few years back. Flights, hotel, food all was fairly expensive, but it was fun and interesting. I'm a gamer, I do stuff like that from time to time, and it's my hobby. Money would not change that.

Anyway, long story is every person doesn't share your views. You aren't wrong in thinking as you do, its just different than some other peoples point of view. People value different things and have different hobbies. Money may or may not change that. I'm not asking you to change your mind, just keep it open (even if you think it is all crazy garbage). after all, some people had bought those 10K packages and I can guarantee you they have lots of money to drop 10K. Regardless of what happens, they would get over the loss if things went south and not even feel the financial impact.

I like how you think it's ego centric when I stated explicitly that the issue is the precedent being set in the game industry ala marketing with this sort of predatory pricing structure and investment schemes.

I respect what you're saying, and agree with a lot of it - but christ, learn to ******* read.

This is the third time I'll explicitly reiterate this point - the problem is the bar being set by absurd pricing structures for vaporware games that are only enabled by desperate nolifers. People gotta get some sort of discipline in how they set aside money, time, etc.

Rich people don't get rich by pissing money away. Don't be naive.

[Soy]

I play, we all play, these games to escape the real world. For the most part. Even if you're playing a sim, you're ecaping the reality. I don't want to find my escape, my hobby, being priced based on how gullible some morons with no sense of discretion, and greedy marketing people.

Think back to when you were a kid. People like to talk about how this games IP exists still, solely cuz the basement virginw warlocks who played it have grown up and have enough money laying around for this very thing to still exist.

When you were that kid, you were not thinking about pledging absurd amounts of money for a game that doesn't exist. You were renting games for a buck after eating out on a Friday night with your family. You were enjoying a new game at your friends house on a sleepover. You weren't thinking about investing five figures into something that doesn't exist.

The **** happened to gaming.

[stjobe]

Soy, on 12 October 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

the issue is the precedent being set in the game industry ala marketing with this sort of predatory pricing structure and investment schemes.

[...]

This is the third time I'll explicitly reiterate this point - the problem is the bar being set by absurd pricing structures for vaporware games that are only enabled by desperate nolifers. People gotta get some sort of discipline in how they set aside money, time, etc.

You have a point with regards to the gaming industry in general, but to paint HBS with that same broad brush is to do them a real disservice. Go have a look at the games they have produced (most of which, incidentally, you can buy for less than a twenty), go look at what they've promised in their Kickstarters and what they have delivered.

At least in my book, HBS is one of the companies that are doing this right.

[Soy]

I respect kickstarters I respect investing in vaporware. I just don't respect asking for handouts from a gullible group of people.

It's like when politicians fleece taxpayers for a stadium. ********, the owners makin Xmil a year straight profit. Eternally. Perpetually. Give me a break.

Is Game A guaranteed to make Xmil straight profit forever? No, lol, far from it. But where does it end.

Cuz you say to a gamer, "jump". They go, "how high". Don't believe me, look at Second Life. The hell are people spending insane amounts of money in that game for. You can't put a price on fun. Economics, marketers, etc they've spent careers trying to peg down Util of Satisfaction. They haven't. But they keep raising[lowering] the bar, trying to find it. They will break you, gamers, if you let them. Maybe not you, but the next chump. https://en.wikipedia...ioral_economics

Edited by Soy, 12 October 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[stjobe]

Soy, on 12 October 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

I respect kickstarters I respect investing in vaporware. I just don't respect asking for handouts from a gullible group of people.

Again, only speaking about HBS here, BATTLETECH would have gotten made no matter what. They had their funding for a basic skirmish game already set aside when the Kickstarter started - the Kickstarter is only for additional content/mechanics/play modes.

It's exactly the model that has given us three very, very good Shadowrun games in the last three years.

That history is why I personally didn't hesitate to back them on this one - combined of course with the fact that it looks like they're making the game I've been dreaming of since 1987.