112 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

What can i say? Don't you believe me?

Take a quick glimp of your 10 last solo matches and you tell me how much you did go round the map?

I am sure everyone will come up with atleast one time.

Quick summary: In my opinion this game is turning on speed. The ACH was one of the few mechs to break through the speed barrier. In my opinion it's still one of the most imbalanced mechs ingame prior balance. But opinions may disagree. But hey i am just telling how i think about this mech. It's not only the ACH you know. But it's a prime example of a expanding problem.

The reason that i am bringing this up is i am noticing i even fall more and more behind with the Atlas. And i am not the only Assault. Even some Heavies fall out of the boat. The Direwolf for example with a lower clocked travel speed is sharing the same problem. Other Assaults are biting the dust soon as well if they dont put bigger engines in their mechs just to catch up.

Since the implentation of PSR or whatever you name it i have been noticing a huge increase of Assault lances getting annilhilated. Specifically talking about the solo q. Some player even disconnect when they see a NASCAR is going on. I can't blame them though. Often you have to cut alot of corners, lose valueable armor or even chunks of your HP to catch up. Positioning is the key. So is a fireline. But good luck trying to create a counter fireline witth a 12 random.

In group que this is less of a problem. Because they know how to support the Assaults.
Due all that fine powercreeping you see the speed differences can get up to 30 km/h because of all these shiny IS/Clan toys. Not very surpising (and most people do know this) that a good Heavy practically beats a Assault in both mobility and firepower* (*certain cases, certain circumstances)

PGI is running after the facts. They are making the maps bigger and the spawnpoints wider across each map. A bigger map has pro's but also con's. You still see the very same behaviour of NASCAR on the New River City and even Forest Colony. PUGs tend to get a targer fix and go for empty space and try to 'flank' away. Most of the map gets unused or not even touched.

The new maps are not simply big enough and the spawn locations are borked.
You decide if i am talking the truth or not.

Am i spewing like a drunk man talking gibberish? I personally don't think so. Balance is however a other subject which i wont discuss here. I personally think thats even in a worse state. (high alpha mentality, still on-going bad weaponvalues, 'meta')

Some mechs are designed to go fast. Sure we can discuss endless about the fact that these mechs are designed to work on speed. But we still need to deal with this underlying problem. Some mechs are getting more and more in trouble just because of the speed alone. The map is one problem, but so is the general gameplay.

The game has been seriously screwed terms of gameplay. Everything looks like speedy gonzales.

Atleast in my personal opinion i don't like the way we're heading. And frankly it gets worse with more mech packs coming down the road.

So what are your personal thoughts about the above? And how do you feel about the current speed?

Thanks for reading.

Edited by Sarlic, 30 September 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[FupDup]

The Big-Engine-Stomp-Meta (BESM) didn't start with the Arctic Cheetah, not by a long shot. It's been a trend since around the original Reign of the Poptarts, particularly with mechs like the Victor (which could once use an XL engine without gimping itself).

The BESM became much more apparent and mainstream in Puglandia after the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow showed up, being able to use large XL engines without crippling themselves.

The Cheetah in particular has pretty much average speed for a light in MWO, and can be at least slightly outran by several IS lights (but its other traits more than make up for that).

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

In have been leveling my Maulers lately, and oddly enough, have not been left behind much at all...

... Possibly because I try to begin matches by announcing the location of our Assault lance and say:

[team] "Our Assaults are in B3"

That simple reminder has worked wonders for me... But I may be lucky.

[Sarlic]

FupDup, on 30 September 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

The Big-Engine-Stomp-Meta (BESM) didn't start with the Arctic Cheetah, not by a long shot. It's been a trend since around the original Reign of the Poptarts, particularly with mechs like the Victor (which could once use an XL engine without gimping itself).

The BESM became much more apparent and mainstream in Puglandia after the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow showed up, being able to use large XL engines without crippling themselves.

The Cheetah in particular has pretty much average speed for a light in MWO, and can be at least slightly outran by several IS lights (but its other traits more than make up for that).

It's not about who or what started it.

The main problem i am trying to point out that this game gets worse for people to catch up. The differences between the solo and the group que is huge. (It always have been in certain gameplay)

But rusty old behaviour still remains. Faster newer mechs do contribute to the same problem. As you have pointed out it didnt started alone with the ACH. But the break through is roughly the same. Fast mechs makes other mech fall behind if people go for the sweet spot and that's either a medium or a heavy.

Why bring a Assault on the field when a faster heavy can do the same with a few more alpha's. More speed, same result.

It's not only the Assault class who are experiencing this problem.

Edited by Sarlic, 30 September 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Madcap72]

LOL speed has been the real meta for YEARS. The maps are larger to support 12v12, and make the old 8v8 maps less crowded.

What you're talking about is people not being skilled enough to work with each other around different speeds, and as I always mention, use the communication tools provided to make plans and change them as needed.

Everything you've mentioned can be fixed as simply as typing in team chat, or hitting voip and showing initiative and leadership.

It's a failure of the player base to work together, not map size or mech speed. Notice when dropping with or against GOOD teams, they don't have problems.

[Sarlic]

Prosperity Park, on 30 September 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

In have been leveling my Maulers lately, and oddly enough, have not been left behind much at all...

... Possibly because I try to begin matches by announcing the location of our Assault lance and say:

[team] "Our Assaults are in B3"

That simple reminder has worked wonders for me... But I may be lucky.

Alot of people do that.

Which is a valid thing to point out. First thing to do is that people should support Assaults. Sometimes they do, other times they don't care.

The 'don't care' part is speed. Speed means life. Fall behind and you lose.

Seen enough matches were abouts whole Assaults lances were biting dust just because nobody gave a flying f*ck.

Edit: i have to go sleep though, will report back tommorrow!

Edited by Sarlic, 30 September 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[Sarlic]

Madcap72, on 30 September 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

LOL speed has been the real meta for YEARS. The maps are larger to support 12v12, and make the old 8v8 maps less crowded.

What you're talking about is people not being skilled enough to work with each other around different speeds, and as I always mention, use the communication tools provided to make plans and change them as needed.

Everything you've mentioned can be fixed as simply as typing in team chat, or hitting voip and showing initiative and leadership.

It's a failure of the player base to work together, not map size or mech speed. Notice when dropping with or against GOOD teams, they don't have problems.

I pointed out in other threads that's players are also a part of the problem. (Forgot to mention that in my first post. Oh the irony, though i pasted it)

The quality of our tools needs to go up. For example VOIP is still terrible. We have no basic shouts (or you name it) or anything at all to improve our general team communication.

I very agree with your point though. But its not only the players.

Edited by Sarlic, 30 September 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Shredhead]

Prosperity Park, on 30 September 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

In have been leveling my Maulers lately, and oddly enough, have not been left behind much at all...

... Possibly because I try to begin matches by announcing the location of our Assault lance and say:

[team] "Our Assaults are in B3"

That simple reminder has worked wonders for me... But I may be lucky.

So you're saying communication works? Who'da thunk it?
But seriously, pressing that W button the second the game starts, telling people you need cover and using some game sense helps a lot if you're in a slow assault.
On the other hand, the speed creep the clan mechs introduced is very real, so maybe go for the dps approach with IS mechs and up the engine as far as possible. I don't see a solution to this, as any changes in clan mech stats will call upon the wrath of the neckbeards faster than you can say 'balance'.

[Deathlike]

Speed is a bonus, but honestly it's overrated when Lights are the still the least taken mechs (and get railed about despite this discrepency).

Getting to Point A and Point B is critical... only if it's matched by the firepower can you spam as soon as you get there. It's not like the Scat is benefiting greatly from MASC when we know its firepower is underwhelming compared to its IS counterparts.

Positioning has a much greater value... hence why H11 on Alpine is a thing. Getting to the "point of power" is probably the only real thing of worth compared to focusing solely on speed.

It just happens Clans benefit greatly from Clan XL...

[Madcap72]

Sarlic, on 30 September 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

I pointed out in other threads that's players are also a part of the problem. (Forgot to mention that in my first post. Oh the irony, though i pasted it)

The quality of our tools needs to go up. For example VOIP is still terrible. We have no basic shouts (or you name it) or anything at all to improve our general team communication.

I very agree with your point though. But its not only the players.

PTT radios have been good enough to conduct squad and platoon size vehicular combat since WW2. VOIP is fine.

Heck, I've dropped in PLENTY of matches with attentive players, where everyone went where they needed to, when they needed to because they new the maps and general strategies for the other teams start location to the point we stomped without ANY communication. Old/ New River City, people always fight at the citadel, New Forest Colony, people always fight at the stupid arch, Morador, people always run to the caldera and hang in the gates, Alpine, people Always fight up tryhard hill, or good teams take the radio tower.


All common strategies that can be defeated with simple VOIP commands like "Don't die on tryhard hill, flank around. Fast Mechs do xxx Assaults use cover to get to xxx"


Nothing tough about it.

[Shae Starfyre]

Sometimes, on some maps, I round the other way, power down, with a sliver of view watching for the enemy to bring their backs into the first lap, and then I power up, and lay into them, playing peek-a-boo.

Causes a little confusion (some pull away to investigate, I relocate), and the rest of the team catches up, and I merge back with their lead.

Sometimes, it doesn't work out that well (shrug).

[Chagatay]

Sarlic, on 30 September 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Stuff

Go big* or go home.

*Go big in this case is engine size. I don't recommend less than the 350 STD for Mr. Atlas.

[PaeuxP22]

Chagatay, on 30 September 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Go big* or go home.

*Go big in this case is engine size. I don't recommend less than the 350 STD for Mr. Atlas.

Wow never thought I'd see Sarlic get told how to pilot an Atlas. Lol.

For the rest of us. The Pug queue is all about shooting then not getting shot back at. With solos it takes a certain type of player to draw a line and defend it to the death. Most will withdraw in the face of fire and the faster you go the quicker you can withdraw and fire again yourself.

In group it's less of an issue as you can stand and know that the line will stand with you.

[Yellonet]

OP, I agree.

In general I think the sacrifices for high speed isn't severe enough, many mechs can have quite significant speed while still fielding some pretty potent weaponry, this makes the difference in weapon power between the classes too small when balanced against the speed difference which often is substantial.

But I'm only T3, so who cares?

Edited by Yellonet, 30 September 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[Felbombling]

One of the biggest design blunders PGI made in the beginning was allowing total freedom when it came to engine rating choice, down to the half ton. This allowed players to build the weapon load out they wanted, and THEN slapping an engine into the Mech as an afterthought. Back in the old days you'd choose your engine speed first, because it was a critical decision, and then you'd work with what was left over for your weapons, heat skinks, armour, etc.

Too bad we don't have some restrictions in place that would have limited players to maybe three or four different engine ratings [standard and/or XL] which didn't stray too far from the original stock engine rating. Then we'd have Mechs a little more in line with their original stock configuration and less of, 'Buy new Mech, strip it bare, upgrade engine to max and add meta weapons of choice' Mech designs.

[Signal27]

I'm always trying to look at the silver lining to each cloud. In this particular instance, if heavy and assault pilots feel like the deathball is leaving them behind, maybe that will finally convince people to use lights and medium mechs more often. Because lights and mediums are still usually the two least used mech classes in the game, and I'm pretty certain we've all been looking for a balance in use between all classes.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

well , speed isnt the problem. Its the people.
IF they support assaults and cover them, there will be no issue.
So you probably see a lot of leaving assaults behind thing.

I will not tell you advices about Atlases, cause you know all of them. But I personaly have 3 versions, and in all are STD 350 (62.4 kph). Im not left back, ever.
For Maulers I pick STD 315 (62.3 kph)
I feel that 62 kph is perfect border for assault to be mobile enough. (only my opinion)

Ofc DWFs are in trouble here. In this part you are right.

ACh isnt OP in speed, rather in ARMOR (stripping 1% constantly, no matter what) - this is broken as hell.

Edited by Titannium, 30 September 2015 - 02:58 PM.

[KodiakGW]

Sarlic, on 30 September 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

and the spawn locations are borked.

^^This has been a problem for a while. When I saw the drop zones on the new maps I hit my head against my desk in disgust. Anytime you drop lances so far apart, one lance usually gets screwed. That is usually the assault lance.

Same for many existing maps:

Crimson Straight (Skirmish) - Fine if you spawn on the B6 industrial side. But, if you spawn on the other side (crescent/island side) you have that one borked lance in B1. Pray it's not the assaults.

Terra Therma - Spread too far apart.

Caustic - Spread too far apart. If the assault lance is the one furthest to the left when facing the center, it starts the NASCAR chase.

HPG (Skirmish) - Again, one lance is isolated. Usually pushed and killed, especially if it is the Assault lance.

Really, any good drop commander would make sure the lances dropped within close proximity to each other. Making sure their Assaults are covered by the other lances. Almost every time I drop in solo PUG, I need to remind everyone to form up on the Assaults. When they don't, it is usually a loss.

Fix the drop zones and I bet we see less NASCAR. Should be a simple program change.

Bigger program change (we will never see) would to make game types that favor Assaults more for one, and lights more for another. Leaving Skirmish/Team Deathmatch for mostly Heavies and Mediums.

[Clit Beastwood]

Prosperity Park, on 30 September 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

In have been leveling my Maulers lately, and oddly enough, have not been left behind much at all...

... Possibly because I try to begin matches by announcing the location of our Assault lance and say:

[team] "Our Assaults are in B3"

That simple reminder has worked wonders for me... But I may be lucky.

I think you've just been lucky -
I was in a LFG last night and one of the guys kept bringing 48kph maulers. I won't waste my time supporting a stupidly slow mech - I told him as much. He heard the same from the rest of the group - either speed it up or you're out of the group, because you're doing the team no good as-is. He sped up his mech substantially, saved on heat, and wound up improving dramatically.

I'd say, if you're going to run *that* slow, do it in a group and lay the cards on the table up-front. Don't expect everyone to give up their ability to maneuver to support your slow mech without some discussion first. If you can change the engine, at least be fast enough to keep up with a slow heavy. 48kph was absurd. Couldn't torso twist anything.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Speed isn't the issue, selfish players that are afraid of taking ANY enemy fire are.