572 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Kael 17, on 13 October 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Maximum range, Clan ER Large laser 888m (40% reduction)
Maximum range, IS ER Large Laser 1350m

No "Super long range lasers" due to weapon quirks on IS mechs.

Result: IS outranges Clans by 462 meters

lol IS regular large laser outranges clan erll >.<

[Tennex]

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

dude...it's to test the mechanics.

and to illicit feedback. which is what that post was

[Kem]

nerfing clan laser range w/o reduction of heat generation and beam duration is just silly. Afrer the nerf standard lasers will be superior to clan ER lasers.

trade of heat/dmg ratio, beam duration for silly 20% range over standard laser? nothx. Plz allow us to fit standard lasers on clan mechs in that patch also, so we can forget that clan ER tech is ever existed

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Tincan Nightmare, on 13 October 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Well the damage ability of any build is still the same, the only difference is that you will have to be closer to inflict that damage. Since all quirks are being removed, there will be no IS mechs with super long range lasers, so both sides should have a similar engagement range (if its only the maximum range being reduced). Also that means no heat reduction, cooldown, or duration quirks as well. At the very least it should provide some important data between the current most dominant weapon system between the 2 factions.

This would be true if the nerf to max range wasn't so heavy handed. Clan laser ranges will be significantly shorter than IS now.

[Sug]

Kael 17, on 13 October 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Question, if PGI wanted a 3025 game, why did they not make one?

They probably should have.

[kuritakun]

looks like time to give up kerensky's dream lol i like playing clans but i love taking out my is mechs too.. a very interesting quirk pass.. remember guys be open to the test its not final so dont whine just yet coz this might lead to a good balancing where "everybody is happy" (though i doubt that lol)
id do the same with the clan laser range testing, id reduce it by 40% then increase it in increments till it balances with is lasers with regards to max damage/max range

Edited by kuritakun, 13 October 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Quote

Weapon and targeting reticle mechanics when target is not locked
The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.
Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.
Reticle mechanics when target is locked
The targeting reticle will now change color and shape when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is target-locked.

Yeah I really don't like that. Since you've made a new "You're locked and dealt damage" cursor animation they should keep the red flash for non-locked damage. Being in Australia and having average ping that sort of feedback is really required.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Tennex, on 13 October 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

and to illicit feedback. which is what that post was

Feedback is a heck of a lot more valid AFTER actually testing it.

Have you even puzzled together the whys?

In both the case of the lasers and lrms, it severely hampers group focus fire, which is one of the biggest complaints to TTK. With the LRMs, it also reduces the ability of a LRM60-100 mech to wreck the underhive, because now it needs to either close, or have a sympathetic spotter. This kind of change, could ultimately allow them to finally adjust LRMs to something less useless.

And all the numbers are baseline placeholders.

Edited by Illya Arkhipova, 13 October 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[Impyrium]

Very interesting changes indeed. Will be very interesting to see how it plays out. Laser lock mechanic sounded worrying at first, but then again, perhaps lasers require target information to focus themselves properly or something.

Troutmonkey, on 13 October 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Yeah I really don't like that. Since you've made a new "You're locked and dealt damage" cursor animation they should keep the red flash for non-locked damage. Being in Australia and having average ping that sort of feedback is really required.

As another Australian living in your general vicinity, I disagree. Not only did it feel very arcade-like it could in itself negate the need to target in the first place since you could easily tell at long ranges what you're hitting. Whereas now, this will make sniping that much more reliant on your team (as it should be) and just a bit trickier in general.

[OznerpaG]

if PGI increased the heat on the long range weapons only that'd solve some of the problem

cLPL
PGI 10 heat 13dmg 1200m range
TT 10 heat 10dmg 900m range


why was the original damage and range increased? so because of that now they want to nerf the shorter ranged weapons? huh?

Edited by JagdFlanker, 13 October 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[FupDup]

JagdFlanker, on 13 October 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

if PGI increased the heat on the long range weapons only that'd solve some of the problem

cLPL
PGI 10 heat 13dmg 1200m range
TT 10 heat 10dmg 900m range


why was damage and range increased?

Actually the TT range was 600m.

Listing the MWO range as 1200m is misleading because you're going to deal massively reduced damage by the time you get out that far.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Dingo Red, on 13 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Very interesting changes indeed. Will be very interesting to see how it plays out. Laser lock mechanic sounded worrying at first, but then again, perhaps lasers require target information to focus themselves properly or something.



As another Australian living in your general vicinity, I disagree. Not only did it feel very arcade-like it could in itself negate the need to target in the first place since you could easily tell at long ranges what you're hitting. Whereas now, this will make sniping that much more reliant on your team (as it should be) and just a bit trickier in general.

I really wonder if you and me are reading the same post as some of these others..... or if they just see red instantly and don't put two and two together? The things tested and ultimate goals are pretty bloody apparent, ain't they?

[Top Leliel]

To be honest, the heat sink thing isn't *terrible* per se, clan mechs have lower threshold but faster dissipation than equivalent IS mechs? Meh whatever.

But if a Clan "ER" Large Laser is ever going to have shorter maximum range than an IS standard Large Laser, well... it would be ridiculous.

[FupDup]

Top Leliel, on 13 October 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

To be honest, the heat sink thing isn't *terrible* per se, clan mechs have lower threshold but faster dissipation than equivalent IS mechs? Meh whatever.

Actually the dissipation is equal. 0.15 for DHS of both factions.

[D1SC0 LEM0NADE]

This sounds rediculous. The clan laser reduction makes no sense at all, until further clarified. Why do you need a lock to do damage? Flat out nonsense. It's no longer battletech and has become mecha-robot online. Clans HAVE superior tech, IS always had the numbers. Three lance vs two stars would take care of much of the crying without need for further balance.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Kael 17, on 13 October 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Question, if PGI wanted a 3025 game, why did they not make one?

supposedly b/c of IGP from the information I can dig up....Now that they're gone they seem to be interested in fixing the game.

[Deathlike]

Let me comment since this seems a bit significant a post to digest...

InnerSphereNews, on 13 October 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

ECM

• ECM radius has been decreased to 90m (down from 180m).
  
• ECM no longer prevents lock-on for 'Mechs within the radius. It only delays the amount of time it takes to achieve lock-on by 3 seconds.
  
• The target-lock delay provided from ECM can still be overridden by TAG, NARC, BAP, PPC's, and ECM suites set to 'Counter' mode.

That's a buff to LRMs, but at least it isn't a total disaster there.

Quote

Equipment and Weaponry

Equipment/Weapon Health

• The Health of all Equipment and Weapons has been increased to 15 (up from 10).

Inner Sphere Single Heat Sinks

• Chassis-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.1 (up from 1).
  
• Engine-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.1 (up from 1).
  
• Chassis-equipped Single Heat Sink heat capacity increased to 1.1 (up from 1).

Inner Sphere Double Heat Sinks

• Chassis-equipped Double Heat Sink heat capacity increased to 1.5 (up from 1.4).

Clan Double Heat Sinks

• Chassis-equipped Clan Double Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 0.15 (up from 0.14).
  
• Chassis-equipped Clan Double Heat Sink heat capacity decreased to 1.2 (down from 1.4)

Clan Laser Maximum Ranges

• Maximum Ranges for all Clan Lasers have been reduced by 40%.

I think you meant "most" equipment, as there are obvious exceptions (ECM, Gauss, AC20).


The SHS change is irrelevant. A better solution is to simply increase the SHS value to a flat increase... like 1.4 or 1.5 to both internal and external... or an even easier change to make the engine HS to 2.0 (equivalent of a DHS upgrade).

With the Clan laser range.. an example with math would have been appreciated honestly. The interpretation doesn't make sense. Again... math please.

Quote

Targeting Mechanics

Weapon and targeting reticle mechanics when target is not locked

• The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.
  
• Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

I'm going to say that this will confuse people when it comes to hit detection for a bit as people have relied on it to make sure they made a hit.

The second change however is an indirect buff to ECM vs lasers... which make absolutely no sense.

Of course, math for the damage reduction is important and still missing here.

Quote

Reticle mechanics when target is locked

• The targeting reticle will now change color and shape when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is target-locked.

It better be explained in the Training Grounds once this is implemented. It's bad enough people don't use "R" enough.

Quote

Sensor Range

All ‘Mechs start with a baseline Sensor Range of 500m. Through the application of Sensor Range Quirks on a per-variant basis, individual variants can receive an increase to their baseline Sensor Range.

Post-Quirk Sensor Ranges will generally fall into the value regions listed below, according to weight class:

• Light ‘Mechs: ~900m Sensor Range.
  
• Medium ‘Mechs: ~800m Sensor Range.
  
• Heavy ‘Mechs: ~700-750m Sensor Range.
  
• Assault ‘Mechs: ~500-650m Sensor Range.

Target Acquisition Rate

• The Target Acquisition Rate for all ‘Mechs during this test phase is 0 seconds.
  
• Target Acquisition Rate can be quirked on a per-variant level, but there are no Target Acquisition Rate Quirks in place for this test phase.
  
• Target Acquisition Rates are affected by ECM.
  
• The Target Acquisition Delay caused by ECM for all ‘Mechs during this test phase is 3 seconds.

Target Information Sharing

• Target information sharing is now based on the distance between the target and the first teammate, then from the distance of that teammate to all other teammates.

Sensor ranges seem irrelevant for those that use their eyes. It's not enough of a differentiation (500m for an Assault is pretty generous).


TL;DR

In sum, the changes still give the Magic Jesus Box a buff to lasers, but a nerf vs LRMs.

HS changes are a joke for SHS.

Please show your work... aka math.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 October 2015 - 07:21 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Top Leliel, on 13 October 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

To be honest, the heat sink thing isn't *terrible* per se, clan mechs have lower threshold but faster dissipation than equivalent IS mechs? Meh whatever.

The same dissipation, just a lower threshold.

However, Clan DHS are 2 slots, instead of 3. They are, then, objectively better than IS DHS if they have the same stats. 2-slot DHS are a substantial upgrade as well as it allows them to be placed in places that IS mechs simply cannot fix heatsinks.
Basically, look at it this way: IS mechs get a bigger heatcap with equal numbers of sinks, but Clan mechs can have more cooling via being able to fit more DHS if they so choose and thus roughly equal overall heatcap.

Quote

But if a Clan "ER" Large Laser is ever going to have shorter maximum range than an IS standard Large Laser, well... it would be ridiculous.

Obviously, that won't be the final number, as it'd just be absurd. But yeah, that's something that needs some clarification.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

A lot of this new stuff is cool, but the stacking between the massive max laser range nerf and the laser lock on nerf is going to hit clan lasers, especially the smalls, WAY too hard. It's hard to believe anyone could be in favor of this change without just hating clans.

[DevilCrayon]

Let the great flame wars of 2015-10-XX begin!!!