572 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 13 October 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

Loud and constant whining to the high heavens can and does work on the very weak-kneed. Sigh!

And the kicker? Clan double heat sinks being almost equivalent to IS single heat sinks is ******* hilarious. Clan ER lasers becoming short range weapons are doubly so.

I don't think that's quite true. While their capacity got nerfed to 1.2, their dissipation got buffed slightly as well.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

40% .... that will hurt claner a lot.

[Batch1972]

I really want to like these changes but it seems to me you're moving further and further away from the lore to try to correct issues that have been caused by bad mistakes at the games inception. Rather than doing this perhaps you should go back and revist the fundaments before you release on Steam.

The clans are supposed to be powerful. Better equipment, more flexibility etc. There should just be less of them on a team. Teams shouldn't be a mix of clan/is. It should be clan vs clan/ is vs is, is vs clan with fewer clan than is. Doing what you are doing renders the clans pointless. You might as well reset the game to 3039 and let everyone with clan mechs choose new IS ones

How does this balacing work with pilot mastery? Is the current system all we will ever get? That alone causes a huge disparity.

What about balancing by weapon hardpoint size? weapon size? Why are IS mechs more customisable that Clan mechs?

I actually liked the quirk system - it just needed to have thought through a little better

[Kin3ticX]

huge improvement over PTS1 and I am initially impressed by many of these changes on paper.

[Vellron2005]

Ok, so here's my opinion, just from reading the rebalance OP..

1) Clan Laser Nerf will be a BIG issue for most clanners. Chopping the range 40% is not a nerf, its a whole new lower class of laser.

This effectively removes Clan laser sniping, and forces clan mechs to be restricted to brawling.

Its like instead of CERLL's having really powerfull CERMLAS... its absurd..

Perhapse a 20% or 25% nerf would be more suitable. It would still be significant, but not so as to render Large Lasers useless.

Someone earlier did some calculations and it turned out that with this, IS ERLL would out-range CERLL by a few hundread meters... again, absurd.

And don't even get me started on how far from LORE this would be...

2) ECM Nerf - I agree with the bubble size reduction... but the switch from not being able to lock to lock delay.. that will be great for LRM's, sure, but very very bad for lights... they will be in serious trouble. You should do this ONLY if you add a module that lets ECM deny lock, or as a special feature of some ECM-oriented mechs (like the raven).

ECM lock deny is one of the pillars of what ECM is.. it always made mechs sensor-invisible, and you should not mess with that.

Again, its far far from lore..

3) Lasers not doing full damage to non-target locked mechs from more than 60% range - For me, this one is the king of absurdity.

Its absurd enough that lasers, which are beams of focused light that travel at 300.000 kilometer/second HAVE A RANGE, and that this range is not expressed in thousands of kilometers, but limiting that range depending on sensor data?

Has any of you ever had a single physics lesson?

If you implement this, you might as well implement magic and spellcasting. Both are just as silly in a game like MWO.

I understand you are thinking in terms of chessboard-like game mechanic, but please, take common sense and realism into consideration as well. There is absolutely no realistic reason why a beam of focused light fired from point A should loose focus, or power, depending on software controlling that beam's direction.

Unless the mech's computer software thinks like this: "Oh, Its a faraway target, but my god-like master Mr. Pilot has not pressed R so I don't know if its friend or foe.. better tone it down just to make shure"

Its beyond absurd. There's no word to describe it without being disrespectful.

I'm shure many players will agree with me.

Conclusion:

I understand that the game needs to be rebalanced, but PGI, you have to take realism, lore and common sense into consideration as well.. Balance is important, but not if it steals the soul of what MechWarrior and Battletech are.

[Xhaleon]

Darlith, on 14 October 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:

A guess? Because many people have mentioned the tendancy of weapons, especially ones like the ac/20 to go poof as soon as the armor is gone. So they are testing higher durability of the items themselves as an alternative to just upping the armor on a bunch of mechs.

The size of those weapons are meant to balance their power by making them "go poof" more easily than others. Now, I can understand the need for making them tougher, but wouldn't it be better if PGI sits down for 30 minutes and thinks of unique health numbers for every piece of equipment? Make that AC/20 have 20 health, sure, but make sure that the significantly smaller Large Lasers still only have 10 HP and Gauss Rifles have 5 HP and all ammunition have 2 HP. That's what I roughly think should be done with equipment HP.

There are crazier things being done like the 40% reduction to Clan laser max range, but it just seems to me that they've spent the absolute minimum amount of time and thought on equipment HP compared to everything else. Some good ideas in there too though.

Edited by Xhaleon, 14 October 2015 - 12:20 AM.

[Kshat]

Beware, my poor sheep! The end is near!
The light at the end shall be revealed as rocket engines, and the skies will go dark by the swarms of destiny!
Behold, the Lurmageddon is here!

[Kmieciu]

Titannium, on 14 October 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

40% .... that will hurt claner a lot.

Optimal range stays the same so... not?

[Kin3ticX]

Vellron2005, on 14 October 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Ok, so here's my opinion, just from reading the rebalance OP..

1) Clan Laser Nerf will be a BIG issue for most clanners. Chopping the range 40% is not a nerf, its a whole new lower class of laser.

This effectively removes Clan laser sniping, and forces clan mechs to be restricted to brawling.

Its like instead of CERLL's having really powerfull CERMLAS... its absurd..

Perhapse a 20% or 25% nerf would be more suitable. It would still be significant, but not so as to render Large Lasers useless.

Someone earlier did some calculations and it turned out that with this, IS ERLL would out-range CERLL by a few hundread meters... again, absurd.

And don't even get me started on how far from LORE this would be...

2) ECM Nerf - I agree with the bubble size reduction... but the switch from not being able to lock to lock delay.. that will be great for LRM's, sure, but very very bad for lights... they will be in serious trouble. You should do this ONLY if you add a module that lets ECM deny lock, or as a special feature of some ECM-oriented mechs (like the raven).

ECM lock deny is one of the pillars of what ECM is.. it always made mechs sensor-invisible, and you should not mess with that.

Again, its far far from lore..

3) Lasers not doing full damage to non-target locked mechs from more than 60% range - For me, this one is the king of absurdity.

Its absurd enough that lasers, which are beams of focused light that travel at 300.000 kilometer/second HAVE A RANGE, and that this range is not expressed in thousands of kilometers, but limiting that range depending on sensor data?

Has any of you ever had a single physics lesson?

If you implement this, you might as well implement magic and spellcasting. Both are just as silly in a game like MWO.

I understand you are thinking in terms of chessboard-like game mechanic, but please, take common sense and realism into consideration as well. There is absolutely no realistic reason why a beam of focused light fired from point A should loose focus, or power, depending on software controlling that beam's direction.

Unless the mech's computer software thinks like this: "Oh, Its a faraway target, but my god-like master Mr. Pilot has not pressed R so I don't know if its friend or foe.. better tone it down just to make shure"

Its beyond absurd. There's no word to describe it without being disrespectful.

I'm shure many players will agree with me.

Conclusion:

I understand that the game needs to be rebalanced, but PGI, you have to take realism, lore and common sense into consideration as well.. Balance is important, but not if it steals the soul of what MechWarrior and Battletech are.

Do you realize your post is filled with "because lore", "because realism", "because physics lesson"

This is exactly the feedback here I hope PGI ignores.

[Vellron2005]

Xhaleon, on 14 October 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

The size of those weapons are meant to balance their power by making them "go poof" more easily than others. Now, I can understand the need for making them tougher, but wouldn't it be better if PGI sits down for 30 minutes and thinks of unique health numbers for every piece of equipment? Make that AC/20 have 20 health, sure, but make sure that the significantly smaller Large Lasers still only have 10 HP and Gauss Rifles have 5 HP and all ammunition have 2 HP. That's what I roughly think should be done with equipment HP.

There are crazier things being done like the 40% reduction to Clan laser max range, but it just seems to me that they've spent the absolute minimum amount of time and thought on equipment HP compared to everything else. Some good ideas in there too though.

It seems to me that they all just sat down, after playing a D&D 4ED campaign, and said.. "you know what? Flack'em. Lets make IS and CLAN all absolutely the same, we'll just call it different names. To the trash bin with LORE! WE make the lore now! We paid for the rights after all.."

That's how these changes feel..

[Speedy Plysitkos]

clanners:



IS:

[Widowmaker1981]

Well, its just test server so no rage here but a few things:

Need clarification on clan laser ranges - is the ERLL really capping out at 888 meters? If so that is clearly absurd. C-ERLLs already suck, imo.

ECM changes are a HUGE increase to the value to the individual of an ECM mech (because no more bubble) - if this goes live you wont see other clan heavies not called Hellbringer ever again for example - laser damage shield? Yeah, think thats gonna be popular. Having said that its probably a good change to remove the bubble, just that tying laser dmg to target lock is... iffy.

Works out as a giant overall buff to my 2xERPPC SHC, which is something id like to see buffed because i love it.. so thats nice.

[NocturnalBeast]

Kmieciu, on 13 October 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

If PGI truly removes ALL weapons quirks then Timbers & Stormcows will get a nice net buff. All those laser duration penalties - gone. Heat dissipation - better. Heat capacity - lower, but still good enough for an alpha strike without overheating. Maximum range - worse, but ERML effective range still stays @464 meters (TC+modules) while the IS lose all the ML/LL/LPL quirks that allowed those weapons to compete with clans.

For a STK-4N, that means 10% less range, 15% more heat and 15% longer cooldown. BLR-1S looses 25% range and gains 10% heat. Thunderbolt-5SS looses 25% range and gains 25% heat

Get used to the new weapon ranges IS ML@ 297 meters IS LPL@438 meters , IS LL@495 meters.
Every mech that can boat ERML will be able to out-trade IS LL/LPL, while all IS ML boats can do is to sit behind cover and wait for brawl. But in a brawl, once the fight gets inside 200 meters, the Clans will still have the upper hand with ERSL and CSPL... ML will have a narrow window (220-270 meters) where they are more effective than clantech.

I will thoroughly test those changes, but it's hard not to notice that IS got hit hard with the quirk removal. Way harder than the 40% max range nerf to clan lasers.

Not going to happen, PGI wants Clans and IS to be equal. PGI probably did not want to introduce Clans, but IGP knew the were a cash cow. So now, we have Clan mechs that we payed for because we expected them to be OP (Yes, tell the truth, that is why you like them), but they have and are going to be nerfed to mediocrity.

[Tuku]

The heatsink thing gets me....Clan heat sinks dropped down to 1.2 heat dissapation. Clan weapons...most of them are hotter on the whole than IS weapons...Maybe drop them some to bring them in line but 1.2 is a bit much in my opinion.

[NocturnalBeast]

Titannium, on 14 October 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

clanners:



IS:

LOL, just LOL! Can you not afford Clan mechs? I have some one both of my accounts and yes they are nerfed, and yes I have switched back to IS.

P.S. My Mauler would kick your Mauler's butt anyday!

Edited by Ed Steele, 14 October 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Dear PGI,

please, increase velocity of all PPCs by 200-300 m/s.
Also, don't make Clan weapons worse than IS in range.

Thanks.

[Vellron2005]

Kin3ticX, on 14 October 2015 - 12:31 AM, said:

Do you realize your post is filled with "because lore", "because realism", "because physics lesson"

This is exactly the feedback here I hope PGI ignores.

So what.. you would rather play a game that makes no sense, is fully made-up, and where every mech is the same as every other mech in its class?

A LORE based game that completely ignores the lore? A SIMULATOR that simulates.. nothing? A shooter that plays like chess?

If so, then I suggest you play.. something else..

What these changes would bring would be akin to playing a Formula 1 game where the cars have rocket launchers, afterburners and can teleport..

My post points out that some things need to stay sacred if this is to be a MECHWARRIOR game... If not, call it ROBOT FIGHTER and put it in a different setting.

Ed Steele, on 14 October 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

Not going to happen, PGI wants Clans and IS to be equal. PGI probably did not want to introduce Clans, but IGP knew the were a cash cow. So now, we have Clan mechs that we payed for because we expected them to be OP (Yes, tell the truth, that is why you like them), but they have and are going to be nerfed to mediocrity.

I play clan mechs not because they are better, but because they are iconic, useful, and sexy looking. Please note that I'm a part of a LORE BASED unit, and have passed LORE BASED rights of passage and earned my place in that unit as per Clan Tradition.

Also, I have an alt account where I also play IS mechs, so I speak from a point of view of BOTH SIDES.

Edited by Vellron2005, 14 October 2015 - 12:42 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Well, its just test server so no rage here but a few things:

Need clarification on clan laser ranges - is the ERLL really capping out at 888 meters? If so that is clearly absurd. C-ERLLs already suck, imo.

ECM changes are a HUGE increase to the value to the individual of an ECM mech (because no more bubble) - if this goes live you wont see other clan heavies not called Hellbringer ever again for example - laser damage shield? Yeah, think thats gonna be popular. Having said that its probably a good change to remove the bubble, just that tying laser dmg to target lock is... iffy.

Works out as a giant overall buff to my 2xERPPC SHC, which is something id like to see buffed because i love it.. so thats nice.

Its not clear in the notes

But I bet Paul didn't take 405m on the ERML and reduce it 40%, thats crazy.

More likely the ERML still goes 405m, but doesnt double to 810 anymore.  Exact numbers unclear but im guessing it means the ERML will stop at ~648 (not including range mods)

Edited by Kin3ticX, 14 October 2015 - 12:45 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Ed Steele, on 14 October 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

Not going to happen, PGI wants Clans and IS to be equal. PGI probably did not want to introduce Clans, but IGP knew the were a cash cow. So now, we have Clan mechs that we payed for because we expected them to be OP (Yes, tell the truth, that is why you like them), but they have and are going to be nerfed to mediocrity.

How nice of you to admit that you like pay 2 win. I hope your balance suggestions will be ignored from now on.
BTW. I bought all my clan mechs with C-Bills hard-earned in an unfair fight.

Vellron2005, on 14 October 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

So what.. you would rather play a game that makes no sense, is fully made-up

We're in a giant stompy robots, MWO has no sense and is fully made-up from the ground up. If you are using the "because realism", "because physics lesson" arguments then I would replay that if you take the mech technology and put it into a tank (with jump jets!), it would be a superior fighting vehicle.

Everything in this game is made-belive. From the 4xgravity, to the ballistics (higher caliber=shorter range WTF?)
"Te Lore" is a nice set of guidelines, but the gameplay should always be the no.1 concern. You make the Clans outright better than IS "because lore" - you invalidate dozens of game assets created throughout the years.

Edited by Kmieciu, 14 October 2015 - 12:59 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Kmieciu, on 14 October 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

How nice of you to admit that you like pay 2 win. I hope your balance suggestions will be ignored from now on.
BTW. I bought all my clan mechs with C-Bills hard-earned in an unfair fight.


We're in a giant stompy robots, MWO has no sense and is fully made-up from the ground up. If you are using the "because realism", "because physics lesson" arguments then I would replay that if you take the mech technology and put it into a tank (with jump jets!), it would be a superior fighting vehicle.

I agree... I also bought all my mechs with cbills.. hard earned cbills.

And one more point..

I don't really understand why we "need" this big rebalance... I play both CLAN and IS mechs.. and I do similar damage, similar match scores, and am similarly useful in both.

I really don't understand why all the whining about CLAN's beeing OP... they are only marginally better at some things, and are worse in other things..

If you ask me.. things are pretty balanced right now.

If they should balance anything, its only those "DOA" mechs, and the absurd over quirking..

This is what you get by raising your kids with a "reward participation, not wining" mentality. You get people who don't understand that not everything in the world is equal, fair, or balanced. And that that's what makes the universe perfect. The overwhelming variety of imperfection.

This breeds a generation of "nerf it and make it all the same" kind of people..

P.S.

God help us if ever we should encounter aggressive Aliens. We'll tell them to nerf their death rays cose' they are OP..

Edited by Vellron2005, 14 October 2015 - 12:59 AM.