572 replies to this topic

[Origamizergling]

40% shorter range on Clan Lasers, Will someone tell PGI that is nearly HALF, to the point that now "Extended Range" Lasers have a Maximum Range slightly higher than the Optimal Range of IS equivalents? THATS LUDICROUS!

Edited by Origamizergling, 14 October 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Ok, serious solution, how about we have "Easy" and "Hardcore (lore)" servers? Balance all you want on the easy servers and keep the hardcore servers true to lore, then everyone will be happy.

[bear_cl4w]

video on target locks and lookin g at untargeted mechs on PTS server

[Coralld]

ARM32, on 14 October 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

I'm realy love stuff, when Clan, Large, Pulse laser gets 368m range... It's with module +10%... If someone thinks, that's good idea - think about it again...

Here is the thing, the 40% Max range reduction was to the weapons damage fall-off range, just as many here were saying.
Don't believe me? Here is the actual files for them.

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERMediumLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanERML_desc" nameTag="@ClanERML"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.15" tons="1" maxRange="648" longRange="405" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="3.0" heat="6.0" impulse="0.0" minheatpenaltylevel="7" heatpenalty="1.4" heatdamage="0" damage="7" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="1" Health="15" requireTargetForFullRange="1" visRange="1500" heatPenaltyID="10"/>

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanLargePulseLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanLPL_desc" nameTag="@ClanLPL"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.12" tons="6" maxRange="960" longRange="600"

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERSmallLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanERSL_desc" nameTag="@ClanERSL"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.0" tons="0.5" maxRange="320" longRange="200"

What you are seeing is the effect of the 60% reduction to weapon range when not targeting an enemy and bringing your cross hairs over said target. This right here is a different mechanic then the base weapon stats them selves.

Edited by Coralld, 14 October 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Origamizergling, on 14 October 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

40% shorter range on Clan Lasers, Will someone tell PGI that is nearly HALF, to the point that now "Extended Range" Lasers have a Maximum Range slightly higher than the Optimal Range of IS equivalents? THATS LUDICROUS!

Shorter max range. It wasn't written clearly, but the optimum range stays the same.

An c ERML does full damage to 405 meters, and max range is 648m i believe

[Origamizergling]

Furthermore, What is this garbage about Lasers having a shorter range against untargetted opponents?

Firstly, HOW does that make any sense from just a logical standpoint?

Secondly, Why?

Thirdly, NO, SERIOUSLY WHY?!

I can't imagine the motivation for a change of this nature. Its so stunning and inexplicable to me, that I wouldn't and didn't care until I saw Bear Claw's vid on the subject and witnessed the knuckle chewing insanity of it. Penalizing people for not locking on is harmful and to what intended end I cannot even fathom.

To achieve the same sort of combat effectiveness I am accustomed to, this means that during a brawl, where my survival hinges on my ability to react and fire accurately, now I have to worry about whether or not my target is locked so that the ER-L Faery can sprinkle some pixie dust on my shot so that it does the damage that is printed on the tin?

Frankly I find the propsed conditions of this test to be idiotic and preposterous and the fact that the Inner Sphere continues to be granted boon after boon, all of which make them more effective in skirmish and trades, now having increased range advantage in addition to shorter burn time on lasers and thereby less Damage spread, I am begining to wonder exactly why the blood soaked Hell I threw my lot in with the Clans.

Edited by Origamizergling, 14 October 2015 - 05:58 PM.

[Coralld]

Origamizergling, on 14 October 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

Furthermore, What is this garbage about Lasers having a shorter range against untargetted opponents?

Firstly, HOW does that make any sense from just a logical standpoint?

Secondly, Why?

Thirdly, NO, SERIOUSLY WHY?!

I can't imagine the motivation for a change of this nature. Its so stunning and inexplicable to me, that I wouldn't and didn't care until I saw Bear Claw's vid on the subject and witnessed the knuckle chewing insanity of it. Penalizing people for no locking on is hamrful and to what intended end I cannot even fathom.

To achieve the same sort of combat effectiveness I am accustomed to, this means that during a brawl, where my survival hinges on my ability to react and fire accurately, now I have to worry about whether or not my target is locked so that the ER-L Faery can sprinkle some pixie dudst on my shot so that it does the damage that is printed on the tin? Frankly I find the propsed contions of this test to be idiotic an preposterous and the fact that the Inner Sphere continues to be granted boon after boon, all of which make them more effective in skirmish and trades, now having increased range advantage in addition to shorter burn time on lasers and thereby less Damage spread, I am begining to wonder exactly why the blood soaked Hell I threw my lot in with the Clans.

From a logical stand point? Well a case can be easily made that with out the proper targeting information the lasers are simply unable to focus the energy to a proper point for maximum damage. I call this, the magnifying glass effect. So it makes sense, the problem is I think 60% is just to harsh, 30% would be far more acceptable.

Oh, also, the magnifying glass effect also effects IS lasers as well. So your tantrum on how PGI is favoring IS lasers vs Clan is laughable as the Mag Glass effect hurts the IS more based simply on the fact that their range is already shorter then the Clans.

Edited by Coralld, 14 October 2015 - 06:04 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Origamizergling, on 14 October 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

Furthermore, What is this garbage about Lasers having a shorter range against untargetted opponents?

Same range, less damage at longer ranges.

Quote

Firstly, HOW does that make any sense from just a logical standpoint?

"targeting computer is not correctly focusing the beam without the target being targeted"

Makes as much sense as why lasers have the ranges they do in the first place.

Quote

Secondly, Why?

Thirdly, NO, SERIOUSLY WHY?!

I can't imagine the motivation for a change of this nature. Its so stunning and inexplicable to me, that I wouldn't and didn't care until I saw Bear Claw's vid on the subject and witnessed the knuckle chewing insanity of it. Penalizing people for no locking on is hamrful and to what intended end I cannot even fathom.

You can't figure out why? Maybe put your pants back on and think about it? They even said why in the post.

Not saying I like the mechanic, but the reasoning is obvious (both on the face of it and by their explanation): they want to make infowar more critical, more important. At close ranges this is irrelevant, but at longer ranges limited heavy and assault mech sensor ranges mean they cannot do full laser damage to distant targets without working together with their team to get targeting data.

Quote

To achieve the same sort of combat effectiveness I am accustomed to, this means that during a brawl, where my survival hinges on my ability to react and fire accurately, now I have to worry about whether or not my target is locked so that the ER-L Faery can sprinkle some pixie dudst on my shot so that it does the damage that is printed on the tin? Frankly I find the propsed contions of this test to be idiotic an preposterous and the fact that the Inner Sphere continues to be granted boon after boon, all of which make them more effective in skirmish and trades, now having increased range advantage in addition to shorter burn time on lasers and thereby less Damage spread, I am begining to wonder exactly why the blood soaked Hell I threw my lot in with the Clans.

Clan lasers still have a substantial range advantage. The damage falloff without targeting impacts everyone.

The difference now is that the "ER" part of ER lasers (,this effects IS too) is in reference to the optimal range primarily. That is, ER lasers do full damage to targeted mechs much further out than regular lasers do.

As IS has no range (or other) quirks, your precious clan range advantage still exists in spades.

[Origamizergling]

Is it? Or did you miss the part where the Max range of Clan Lasers was cut by 40%.

Assuming that means only a reduction of the reach beyond Optimal Range, that still leaves Clan Lasers at a mere 80% of their former range, leaving any advantage they once possessed as little more than negligible. Factor in the lower burn times of IS lasers, and thereby the shorter period that a IS 'mech needs to be exposed to deal full damage, as well as the increased likelihood of dealing all the damage to a single component, and you quickly find that The Inner Sphere has a considerable advantage when it comes to both sniping and urban warfare.

Coralld, on 14 October 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

-Snip-
Oh, also, the magnifying glass effect also effects IS lasers as well. So your tantrum on how PGI is favoring IS lasers vs Clan is laughable as the Mag Glass effect hurts the IS more based simply on the fact that their range is already shorter then the Clans.

[Wintersdark]

Origamizergling, on 14 October 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

40% shorter range on Clan Lasers, Will someone tell PGI that is nearly HALF, to the point that now "Extended Range" Lasers have a Maximum Range slightly higher than the Optimal Range of IS equivalents? THATS LUDICROUS!

This is completely incorrect. If you want to rant, at least make a point of making sure you know wtf you're talking about before you embarass yourself. Fire up the PDF, or check Paul's post.

Clan ER lasers still outrange IS regular lasers in both maximum (and, of course, optimal) ranges by a large margin.

Origamizergling, on 14 October 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Is it? Or did you miss the part where the Max range of Clan Lasers was cut by 40%.

Assuming that means only a reduction of the reach beyond Optimal Range, that still leaves Clan Lasers at a mere 80% of their former range, leaving any advantage they once possessed as little more than negligible. Factor in the lower burn times of IS lasers, and thereby the shorter period that a IS 'mech needs to be exposed to deal full damage, as well as the increased likelihood of dealing all the damage to a single component, and you quickly find that The Inner Sphere has a considerable advantage when it comes to both sniping and urban warfare.

Stop assuming, find out.

Clan ER Lasers are still objectively better than IS regular lasers, just not by such a large margin.

[Coralld]

Origamizergling, on 14 October 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Is it? Or did you miss the part where the Max range of Clan Lasers was cut by 40%.

Assuming that means only a reduction of the reach beyond Optimal Range, that still leaves Clan Lasers at a mere 80% of their former range, leaving any advantage they once possessed as little more than negligible. Factor in the lower burn times of IS lasers, and thereby the shorter period that a IS 'mech needs to be exposed to deal full damage, as well as the increased likelihood of dealing all the damage to a single component, and you quickly find that The Inner Sphere has a considerable advantage when it comes to both sniping and urban warfare.

I missed nothing. Again, here is the game files.

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERMediumLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanERML_desc" nameTag="@ClanERML"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.15" tons="1" maxRange="648" longRange="405" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="3.0" heat="6.0" impulse="0.0" minheatpenaltylevel="7" heatpenalty="1.4" heatdamage="0" damage="7" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="1" Health="15" requireTargetForFullRange="1" visRange="1500" heatPenaltyID="10"/>

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanLargePulseLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanLPL_desc" nameTag="@ClanLPL"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.12" tons="6" maxRange="960" longRange="600"

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERSmallLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanERSL_desc" nameTag="@ClanERSL"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.0" tons="0.5" maxRange="320" longRange="200"

After being on the PTS server and only being in Clan mechs I can tell you they are doing just fine. What is the biggest game changer is the Mag Glass mechanic that reduces your optimal range by 60% when not targeting an enemy mech, and again, this also effects IS lasers, which means, they have it actually worse then the Clan.

If I told you that they also nerfed the IS-ERLL Max range from 1,300m to around 1,080 would you stop belly aching?

Edited by Coralld, 14 October 2015 - 06:25 PM.

[CrunchySocks]

The red reticle needs a come back i like the added visual but without a color change it can get lost, keep it with the added visuals but do put the color change back in.

Edited by CrunchySocks, 15 October 2015 - 06:35 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Clan ERML: 405 Optimal Range, 648 Long range.

Lets compare that to the IS ML? Right? Oh. Same tonnage, same size.

Clan ERML does significantly more damage, but has more heat and longer burn time. Still, with full damage out to 400+m vs. 270, the ERML is still a more comparable weapon to the IS LL (at an EXTREME difference in size).

[Gentleman Reaper]

Origamizergling, on 14 October 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Is it? Or did you miss the part where the Max range of Clan Lasers was cut by 40%.

Assuming that means only a reduction of the reach beyond Optimal Range, that still leaves Clan Lasers at a mere 80% of their former range, leaving any advantage they once possessed as little more than negligible. Factor in the lower burn times of IS lasers, and thereby the shorter period that a IS 'mech needs to be exposed to deal full damage, as well as the increased likelihood of dealing all the damage to a single component, and you quickly find that The Inner Sphere has a considerable advantage when it comes to both sniping and urban warfare.

I don't quite understand your logic. Clan lasers still have a significantly better optimal range yet still do more damage, while cERLLs and cLPLs weight less. The only real advantage that IS lasers have is the shorter burn times, which makes it easier to engage light mechs. But for heavy mediums and anything heavier, clan lasers still have the definite edge.

Edited by Elit3 Nick, 14 October 2015 - 06:33 PM.

[hybrid black]

how does paul still have ajob

[Coralld]

hybrid black, on 14 October 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

how does paul still have ajob

Perhaps he is the only one there who knows how to operate the greatest lost tech invention of all time... The coffee maker.

Jokes aside, I like the vast majority of the changes. The, what I call, Magnifying Glass mechanic, that reduces your optimal range by 60% when not targeting an enemy is a different story.

Edited by Coralld, 14 October 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Pihoqahiak]

Hornsby, on 14 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

I can understand threatening to stop playing the game if you don't like changes on the production servers, but threatening to stop using a product because the developer is testing new concept on a totally different branch... are you people 12?

Almost everything they have put on their PTS has gone to production soon after with little to no changes.

[Kael Posavatz]

And PGI fails freshman English and 6th grade math.

The test server does not show a reduction of maximum range by forty percent.

It does show a reduction in maximum range by twenty percent, which, incidentally, is forty percent of the range envelope beyond optimum range. (Under the circumstances, I assume that this was what PGI meant to say.)

Incidentally. The IS ER Large and Large Pulse lasers have also taken this twenty percent hit to their maximum range.

[Gentleman Reaper]

hybrid black, on 14 October 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

how does paul still have ajob

By not listening to people who have no clue how to balance a competitive game.

Seems so many people are complaining about how the changes look on paper, as opposed to how they feel. The mag glass effect has completely changed the laser meta, as well as how light and medium mechs fare against heavier mechs. Using my LL locust on Alpine, I was able to avoid LL fire that would normally cripple me instantly by staying out of their sensor range, while still being able to return fire. Although I have worries that sniper lights might make fights against lone heavies and assaults trivial, this is easily one of the most impactful changes they've ever done for info and role warfare.

Pihoqahiak, on 14 October 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

Almost everything they have put on their PTS has gone to production soon after with little to no changes.

Past PTS test were simply stability or balance testing. This, on the other hand is still very much a work in progress with no guarantee that anything here will make it in the final build.

Edited by Elit3 Nick, 14 October 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[Pereset]

I really like the fact that PGI is making the effort to re-balance the Clan mechs.

I notice a lot of dissent from Clan mech owners, but it is obvious to see why many are incensed. They will be losing their overpowering edge with lasers. Perhaps now, our CW matches will decrease in frustration as the playing field becomes more even between IS and Clan mech technology. Who know? Perhaps we might see more people who subverted to the Clan units, return to the IS units.

(Fat chance, there. But, it is part of my "wish" box. IS units lost a lot of excellent players to Clan factions.)

I'm hoping to see Clan paper targets in the practice maps one day, so that IS gunners FINALLY have a chance to practice more accurate head shot windows on our Clan counterparts.

In regard to ECM, does this also mean that any Clan ECM will no longer counter IS ECM, regardless whether Clan is in counter or not? Ever since PGI rolled out Clan ECM mechs, we in the Inner Sphere found our ECM inneffective due to "make believe" frequency overload jamming when in Clan ECM radius, rendering our ECM effectiveness to ZERO.