90 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

ECM Has been a mountain of **** since inception. Now it's 1.5 or 1 ton of useful. It provides some protection from locking weapons. Thank God it's getting 2 to the back of the head. A big meta change for clans; how does the HBR figure now?

Strongly encourages locking targets and teamwork. Suddenly UAV is a big deal. You have some value added back to ppcs for the energy hardpoints.

I get that Fuppy Duppy hates it but as soon as Paul shoes up FupDup hates everything and everyone for a week. All in all I like where the logic around it is going. I hope we get questionable accuracy without locks next. If you're not locking targets within range you're a burden to your team and always have been. This just makes you a burden to yourself as well.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 October 2015 - 04:37 PM.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 October 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

Ah I think that is called sensor scan time or something. That is a different parameter, unknown if they will bring that back into it.

Soon™.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

ECM Has been a mountain of **** since inception. Now it's 1.5 or 1 ton of useful. It provides some protection from locking weapons. Thank God it's getting 2 to the back of the head. A big meta change for clans; how does the HBR figure now?

Strongly encourages locking targets and teamwork. Suddenly UAV is a big deal. You have some value added back to ppcs for the energy hardpoints.

I get that Fuppy Duppy hates it but as soon as Paul shoes up FupDup hates everything and everyone for a week. All in all I like where the logic around it is going. I hope we get questionable accuracy without locks next. If you're not locking targets within range you're a burden to your team and always have been. This just makes you a burden to yourself as well.

ECM Has been a mountain of **** since inception. Now it's 1.5 or 1 ton of useful. It provides some protection from locking weapons. Thank God it's getting 2 to the back of the head. A big meta change for clans; how does the HBR figure now?

Strongly encourages locking targets and teamwork. Suddenly UAV is a big deal. You have some value added back to ppcs for the energy hardpoints.

I get that Fuppy Duppy hates it but as soon as Paul shoes up FupDup hates everything and everyone for a week. All in all I like where the logic around it is going. I hope we get questionable accuracy without locks next. If you're not locking targets within range you're a burden to your team and always have been. This just makes you a burden to yourself as well.

ECM Has been a mountain of **** since inception. Now it's 1.5 or 1 ton of useful. It provides some protection from locking weapons. Thank God it's getting 2 to the back of the head. A big meta change for clans; how does the HBR figure now?

Strongly encourages locking targets and teamwork. Suddenly UAV is a big deal. You have some value added back to ppcs for the energy hardpoints.

I get that Fuppy Duppy hates it but as soon as Paul shoes up FupDup hates everything and everyone for a week. All in all I like where the logic around it is going. I hope we get questionable accuracy without locks next. If you're not locking targets within range you're a burden to your team and always have been. This just makes you a burden to yourself as well.

My Hellbringer will gain a DHS, personally.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

ECM Has been a mountain of **** since inception. Now it's 1.5 or 1 ton of useful. It provides some protection from locking weapons. Thank God it's getting 2 to the back of the head. A big meta change for clans; how does the HBR figure now?

Strongly encourages locking targets and teamwork. Suddenly UAV is a big deal. You have some value added back to ppcs for the energy hardpoints.

I get that Fuppy Duppy hates it but as soon as Paul shoes up FupDup hates everything and everyone for a week. All in all I like where the logic around it is going. I hope we get questionable accuracy without locks next. If you're not locking targets within range you're a burden to your team and always have been. This just makes you a burden to yourself as well.

Also, you've been multiposting a lot lately. Been spamming that post button?

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

My Hellbringer will gain a DHS, personally.

Still a better mech than the EBJ? Questionable now. It's not a cw must have. Like I said, give this a while

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

Also, you've been multiposting a lot lately. Been spamming that post button?

Nope. I post in a lot of places from my phone (I have times where I'm at work 90 hours a week) but only this forum I have that issue. A lot of lag here.

[Mazzyplz]

i'm playin with many forumites the PTS is AWESOME!!!!!

[sycocys]

Kira Onime, on 14 October 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

That's because there is no delay for target acquisition on the PTS right now.
Don't steer people in the wrong.

Target acquisition delay IS affected by ecm covered mechs - by +3 seconds. Its the 4th bullet point in the Target Acquisition Rates section at the bottom of the notes. Please consider the entire section, because it's all working together.

You don't need the acquisition part to target them or get full damage because its instant even on ECM mechs when you aren't countering them. The info acquisition is delayed. targeting itself is not.

Will the scan thing come back into play in future revisions? Maybe/probably. But they also still have to work out the entire weapons balance as well, so I'm not really concerned at this point what will or won't be the next meta - all they did was show us a pretty decent idea to promote info/reduce some long range & blind laser vomit. Pretty good start.

Mostly fixing ecm is a huge bonus.

Edited by sycocys, 14 October 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

when i play in the PTS, the laser thing only works to make laser not a sniper weapon anymore.

not even ERLL is sniper - that's been nerfed.

the pulses all work perfectly.

honestly it is great. you can still use ERLL to pepper while walking into range for your other weapons;

staying at 1000 meter and spamming 6 erll was a garbage tactic and i'm glad it's gone

[Deathlike]

Mazzyplz, on 14 October 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

staying at 1000 meter and spamming 6 erll was a garbage tactic and i'm glad it's gone

That's not a viable build.

Realistically, most of those builds carry 4.

[InRev]

ECM getting nerfed is perfectly fine by me. Its been stupidly good for way too long. Trying to science some lrm mediums on the PTS right now to see how they stack up with the change, but dem queue times doe.

[Mazzyplz]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

That's not a viable build.

Realistically, most of those builds carry 4.

well i was using hyperbole, but i think the 6 LL stalker used to do that though with the crazy quirks; i might have been wrong

[sycocys]

For a change it might actually make sense for players to start bringing different weapon ranges.

Naturally I think the 60% blanket is too much for some weapons, but there's definitely room to tweak that out laser by laser and you know make them each a little bit more unique and perform a bit differently in the process. Weapons that have "roles" if you will.

[Darlith]

Not a big fan of my 162m optimal medium lasers if I'm not targeting the person I shoot at. Especially when my ac/20 gets its 270 regardless.

Even less a fan of trying to trade with gauss users if I have lasers now.

However it is kind of cool that UAVs essentially make lasers more effective by letting you target before you peek.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

This is the exact mentality that's the problem.

You're basically saying that the end justifies the means, that you will support absolutely ANY change that reduces laser effectiveness, regardless of whether or not the change makes sense.

Remember, this is the mentality that got us Lowlanders, Victorslugs, Ghost Heat, Gauss Charge up, Hoverjets, and Floaty PPCs.

This community has never wanted balance, it just wants whatever they don't use to be nerfed.

[Ordin Hall]

Honestly Clan lasers could use the nerf. Laser meta gets stale after a while and this will help at least a little. Not a fan of whatever the lockon range thing is all about though.

[sycocys]

It weird because whenever I see the notion of balance brought up its usually the T1 leet players railing on everyone else for even considering the thought of changing things.

And the direction with this iteration is only tackling long range info-less laser vomit. Shouldn't even affect you T1 group players that one would assume run scouts anyhow so you'll have that long range target data and can vomit your hearts out, just need to do it 40% closer in your Clan mechs.

[FupDup]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

It weird because whenever I see the notion of balance brought up its usually the T1 leet players railing on everyone else for even considering the thought of changing things.

And the direction with this iteration is only tackling long range info-less laser vomit. Shouldn't even affect you T1 group players that one would assume run scouts anyhow so you'll have that long range target data and can vomit your hearts out, just need to do it 40% closer in your Clan mechs.

Most people complaining aren't complaining about the general idea of changing the meta, in fact a number of them have proposed nerfs of their own to Clan pewpews...the reason they are complaining is because they think the means being used are whacked out.

As I said on the first page, the hole you're falling into is that you are trying to use the end (kill the laser vomit meta) to justify any possible changes that achieve that end.

[Mcgral18]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

It weird because whenever I see the notion of balance brought up its usually the T1 leet players railing on everyone else for even considering the thought of changing things.

And the direction with this iteration is only tackling long range info-less laser vomit. Shouldn't even affect you T1 group players that one would assume run scouts anyhow so you'll have that long range target data and can vomit your hearts out, just need to do it 40% closer in your Clan mechs.

Most complaints aren't from the 40% Clam nerfs (generally only Terribads complained about that).

The complaints stemmed from 162M isMLs and 66M isSPLs.
Blanket nerfing some of the worst weapons in the game; generally something frowned upon.

Having arbitrary optimal ranges isn't a great idea. When they implement different time to lock, it's only going to get worse. You need to stare at that Dire Whale for 3 seconds in order for your 6MLs in a BlackJack to deal full damage at optimal range? He's under ECM after all.
Well, he doesn't need to wait to open up with his Dual Gauss, or Tri-Quad-Penta-Hexa ACx loadout.
If those don't outright kill you, then he can also open up with his lasers.


It wasn't thought out very well.

Edited by Mcgral18, 14 October 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[Foxfire]

I think that it would work if they change it so that mechs that your team mates have targeted also negate the 60% limitation.

That is subject, of course, to the whole target information passing system that they seem to have in mind (aka target information being passed along to the rest of your team is dependent upon distance from target to mech and then distance from mech to lance/rest of the forces).

I think that this would keep it in line with the whole shift towards making information and targeting distribution important.

Edited by Foxfire, 14 October 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So lasers still work fine. Especially inside 500m. Lock the target first. All this does is make lasers less effective at snap shots.

This is probably the best set of weapon changes we've ever had.

Here's the cold hard reality. We still have hitreg issues but it's miles ahead of where it's been. As that has been resolved it's coming down to weapon precision and the inherent advantages of hitscan vs ballistic. Currently in live lasers are good at everything. Long rang, point blank, snap shots (pulse) or dot. They compete and win in just about every catagory.

The pts changes while incomplete and needing adjustment are helping carve out niches for weapons. That was a distinct tabletop factor - weapons had niches, ways and places they did best. It led to diverse builds being viable. We've chipped away at that and tried to make every weapon universally effective and that's managed to eliminate all the balancing factors that made diverse builds viable.

We can't and don't want to replicate all the aspects of tabletop. Making sure that no weapon is ideal for any and all situations though is a good thing. I get that having your solid, works all the time every way performer weapons get kicked in the teeth is an unwelcome change. It needed done and while this is convoluted it is superior to recycle delays, heat and damage nerfs. It is, in its way, universal. Lasers work best with locks and iw. They have niche ranges where you can hitscan precision your damage and when boated a lot of damage. With hs changes they are a tad more manageable in brawls. PPCs and ballistics will be better at trades in their niche now and can snap fire reliably. They are heavier and less accurate though and ppcs hotter. Missiles are still utter **** but one step at a time.