396 replies to this topic

[Mattrixx]

Damascas, on 09 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

You can modify it to have same armor as an urbie just like people keep saying they can mod the urbie to make it faster.

Also I called you an *** for repeatedly posting like a pretentious one so get off your high horse.

You started name calling after I gave you more arguments with some semblance of intelligence behind it (although I am first to admit I am not super smart by far) and ask you, civilly I might add, to provide a substitute for said crappy mech. Instead you reply with insult and name calling. Yes, I did respond in kind after that, which was very unbecoming of me and I will try and correct my ways in that. For that I do apologize.
If you think you can continue discussing civilly without name calling all the better, if not. Well... I'll try and not dignify you with such base responses.


For the Firestarter, depends how many other possible ballistics hard points it has other then the two machine gun points.

I also noticed that the prime variant of the Urbanmech has an AC/10 cannon on it along with the small laser. Now before you all go and throw a fit here the Urbanmech appears to have hidden torso mounts for more ballistic/energy hard point(s). At least the Capellan Confederation one seems to have them, and those are viable options on 3049 according to Sarna. As well as the other variant UM-R63 that replaces the AC/10 with LB-X AC/10 as well as adding a second small laser to the torse (yanking out the machine gun there), yes it now has two whopping small lasers (and yes, if Sarna is to be believed then this one too is viable option on 3049 already).
But wait, this means the Urbanmech can actually field more then just two weapons. Its possibilities just went up a notch now wouldn't you say?

So, do we have any really ballistic light mech possibilities? I looked through all the light mechs, from the 20 tons up to 35 tons, and only mechs that have more then one ballistic hard point that is viable for 3049 era (not taking into account unseen or clan mechs since the former are in no way confirmed or certain and latter are well, clan mechs) are the Firestarter, which is still mostly energy turret platform with its 6x energy hard points and only 2x known ballistic hard points.
And the ever loved Urbanmech. Which appears to have more then two hard points if Sarna is to be believed. Hidden somewhere on its torso are at least one ballistic and one energy hard point, perhaps even one for each torso side?

Also there is another advantage going for the Urbanmech that most other mechs do not enjoy, it has a 360 torso twisting ability which quite a few mechs seem to be missing from what I've read. So in effect you could keep your face towards enemy, and thus your thickest torso armors while standing stock still. Or waddling forwards while firing backwards thus keeping your front and maximum armor towards enemy and your vulnerable back armor away from approaching enemy. Now this might not seem much to many but going away from enemy at your max speed while having your thickest armor towards enemy is a big bonus. Especially since that might give you more time to shoot at anyone coming at you.

Now while I'd like to see something faster with fully ballistic tendencies light mech, unfortunately it seems we are currently, at this game time era of 3049 stuck with pretty much two choices for for it. The Firestarter, which is not really a ballistic platform, or the Urbanmech, which is what it is for better or for worse.

Edit: I do not expect to see the Urbanmech in game upon the release. But I would like to see it later on. Heck, I'd even buy for it in cold hard cash if it came to it so that it was a "novelty" mech for those wishing to waste their money on. Like I said, just for the fun factor alone it would be good to have.

Edited by Mattrixx, 09 July 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Captain Fabulous]

Buck Rogers, on 09 July 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

You only get 5 shots of AC-20 if you want to keep 4 tons of armor (Jenner & Cicada standard). But on the upside, 1 shot should core a lot of mechs. In a base defense role the crit-busting nature of the AC-20 might remedy the 5 round limitation. Especially if they incorporate knock-down. Still probably not for me though.

Yeah. I was screwing around with some mech builds and learned that I can add and LRM-10 to a standard Jenner F (6 tons of armor instead of your standard D's 4 tons) by upgrading to an XL engine. My hope is that I can use the same process and either get a second ton of ammo or increased armor for my little AC/20 Urbie.

But the AC/10 variant is definitely better-suited for a wider range of scenarios.

[Buck Rogers]

Mattrixx, on 09 July 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Also there is another advantage going for the Urbanmech that most other mechs do not enjoy, it has a 360 torso twisting ability which quite a few mechs seem to be missing from what I've read.

I didn't even know that. Someone in a Fan Art forum thread said the Urbanmechs feet are so big it gets a -2 skill check ability for Death From Above attacks as well. As in, Urbanmechs can more easily crush heads than other mechs I guess. Not sure if that's true.

"Urbanmech feet are so big, they get a -2 on death from above rolls, its canon, for real."

I guess that would explain peoples desire to drive an Urbie and face stomp an Atlas. The thing is actually built for it. I thought that was more of a joke, not a workable battle plan.

Edited by Buck Rogers, 09 July 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Urbanmech should be the starting mech of every new player :-) Learn to love it !

[Mattrixx]

Buck Rogers, on 09 July 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

I didn't even know that. Someone in a Fan Art forum thread said the Urbanmechs feet are so big it gets a -2 skill check ability for Death From Above attacks as well. As in, Urbanmechs can more easily crush heads than other mechs I guess. Not sure if that's true.

Unfortunately I am by far not knowledgeable in full BT lore and rules and canon. I am picking things up as I go long and reading the Sarna site (which I hope is as close to the BT actuality as we can get in BT and what follows, within reason, in the MWO). I have, once upon a long time ago played the BT game and the MW1 and MW2 games although that has been a very very long time ago.

But if what you say is true I would not be surprised to find it really being so.

While I like the look and way the Urbanmech is, despite the huge odds against it (probably because of that specifically), and its potential I would definitely like to see it in the game (as stated in my post above, maybe not at launch but at some point, hopefully a bit sooner then later).

As for those who keep going on about tiers. There are no "tiers" as far as I understand the MWO concepts.
There is a skill / tech tree leveling for different weapons / skills / mech boosts (faster, longer ranges for weapons, better heat reduction etc.) that you gain the experience to skill up with.
And from what I read, all the mechs in the game will be instantly available (provided you have the C-bills to fork over) to anyone who wants to buy what and which ever mech they desire, choose and lust after. Be it an Atlas or a Jenner or a Hunchback or even a Commando, you can get any mech you want right off the word go.
The better question is if you have the personal skill to really shine in it. That's where it really all goes down to and stems from, your personal skill in piloting the mech and leeching and squeezing every single damned ouch of usefulness out of it.

Edit: corrected some typos.

Edited by Mattrixx, 09 July 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

So far the points for the Urbanmech are
1) 360 torso twist, something non canon that never existed in the TT and unkown if MWO will implement it
2) ability to mount a ballistic weapon in a light mech, though any light mech that carries at least an mg will have this, especially since they have stated that you could remove a medium laser and replace it with a PPC if you have the tonnage and critical space so I don't know why ballistics would be different
3) the ability to ambush mechs, that for some reason no other mech can perform and only the Urbanmech excels at, and despite its low speed can somehow outmanuever a target and get to its back
4) urban warfare, where an AC/10 (in a game where they have potentially doubled armor values) and 30 kph speed equals total win
5) the ability to never skid on asphalt, though in the TT a mech that walked didn't have to worry about skidding and most light mechs have a walking speed 2 to 3 times an urbies running speed, and an Urbanmech that ran on asphalt and turned even with its measly 3 mp would ALSO have to make a skidding check (though it would have a positive modifier due to its low speed) so even it could skid at times
6) cost, it is cheaper and has a lower BV, though there will be no BV at launch (at least that I've heard of) and every player will be able to choose a single mech of their choice

It doesn't bother me at all that the Urbanmech will probably make it in game, it just drives me crazy with all the people who want to grant it mythical abilities because it is an 'underdog' and seem to lose perspective over it. To mount that AC/10, and 6 tons of armor (only 32 points more than a Jenner or Commando) it had to sacrifice the light mechs main forte, speed. Alot of people have already mentioned ways to change it in the mechlab, but if you have to change out the AC and give it a better engine to make it useful on the battlefield, is it really critical that we launch with this design. And that whole 'big gun' isn't really that viable anymore since a Jenner can put 4 med. lasers to the same location since we are not rolling to hit but aiming with our own manual skills (though heat will be an issue for it.)

[Mattrixx]

Some replies.
1) There are, in canon, in Sarna site if that is to be believed as canon as so many seem to point there, several mechs, not many but a few that seem to have a 360 radius torso twisting ability. At least according to the hinted information on some of the mechs I came across.
That in itself gives a distinctive advantage to the mech that can perform this. Even if you could only turn the torso of the Urbanmech 180 degrees from face forward would already be a rather good advantage. We'll wait and see what comes when and if it comes to be.

2) The question here is to have a light mech that is ballistic hard point heavy instead of the energy or missile platforms we currently see. Unfortunately all the light mechs that truly are ballistic platoforms are +5 years or more in-game time or clan mechs which are out of reach anyway for us players at this moment anyway. And unseen cannot be counted upon unless otherwise specified by the game devs.
It is not a question of having the Urbanmech specifically but as a variety of choice for those who prefer them having a ballistic platform.

3) The ability to ambush mechs is not only Urbanmechs privilege but any mechs. The Urbanmech has a low profile compared to pretty much every other mech giving it a distinct advantage in this against others more large profiled mechs.
As to manuevering, you'd be surprised what people can over look while they are busy tunnel focusing on one thing, area, spot or just picking their noses. So being able to get behind someone of the opposing team is not really that difficult to fathom. But then again, I guess you are some sort of über god-gamer that can do everything, know everything and respond to all situations in the games battlefields without a fault or never doing anything wrong ever?

4) Be as sarcastic as you wish. Don't change the fact that many seem to want to see a ballistic light mech in the game. If it be the Urbanmech or something else does not really truly matter. Urbanmech is simply easy to remember, fun to look at and make fun at and it is most peoples favorite little mascot in BT it seems. And since the Urbie is canon, and you cannot deny that even if you jumped on top of it with both boots and cried all day long, it might just be added to the game. Since there will be urban maps sooner or later. Will the Urbanmech be truly any good only time will show. Although I suspect there will be many surprises where it is concerned if the devs indeed do decide to include it, eventually.

5) This will remain to be seen. There is already icy ground in the Frozen City map that affects fast light mechs ability to maneuver quickly. So we can only wait and see what the devs have in store for us.

6) There might not be BV but you can bet your precious backside that there will be some sort of checks and balances in places and those will be modified and adjusted while the game goes onward.


And it is good that it won't bother you. Doesn't bother me either. And we are not granting it any more mystical abilities then the next person to the other über fast light mechs that cannot be touched or killed (apparently) due to their high speed by nothing short of an assault mech.
Which we know is ridiculous thinking.
And I am sure you could do the revers to any one of the currently available light mechs only thing you would be missing is the ballistics weapons (in plural) and they'd be in the same spot as the Urbanmech.
Oh but I forget, Light mechs only duty is to only scout the enemy positions or run fast to the enemy base past the enemy lines and capture the base? Oh, right almost forgot, and engage the other enemy scout mechs if they happen to come across any (unless the enemy scout mech happens to be an 80 ton scout recon monster).

Ah, the Jenner and its 4 med lasers. So will you be sitting still while you shoot those 4 med lasers, how about your enemy will he be just sitting there not moving? And no, this is not a question of Urbanmech vs. Jenner. It is those Jenners "big guns" you mentioned against anyone at all it might face be it Atlas or a Command (or gods forbid the terrible god-machine Urbanmech).
But more of a general pondering on the subject. Many seem to think that all this is very static. And I am sure at times it will be but most of the times the entire battlefield you are stomping around will be fluid and in motion.

Those 4 medium lasers you mention, they need to be focused on single spot to do maximum damage to an enemy at that spot otherwise they'll drag their damage across the what ever space they happen to come across.
Now the ballistics weapons hit that one spot smack on if, and yes, I said IF, they hit. And this is where the point seems to rest despite many people seeming to forgetting it. Which ones to use, those heat intensive energy weapons or ballistic weapons with their limited supply of umpfh that they can deliver.

I actually would like to use, will see if I can find one mech to do this with, an almost solely ballistic ammo using mech. Yes, I know the dangers this entails but I still would like to do it and see just how it performs anyway. From light to medium to heavy to assault. Just to see what kind of performance difference could be gotten out with something like that.

The Urbie it self to me is just a fun factor mech, if it ever gets released into the game to begin with.

[Buck Rogers]

Tincan Nightmare, on 10 July 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

It doesn't bother me at all that the Urbanmech will probably make it in game, it just drives me crazy with all the people who want to grant it mythical abilities because it is an 'underdog' and seem to lose perspective over it. To mount that AC/10, and 6 tons of armor (only 32 points more than a Jenner or Commando) it had to sacrifice the light mechs main forte, speed. Alot of people have already mentioned ways to change it in the mechlab, but if you have to change out the AC and give it a better engine to make it useful on the battlefield, is it really critical that we launch with this design. And that whole 'big gun' isn't really that viable anymore since a Jenner can put 4 med. lasers to the same location since we are not rolling to hit but aiming with our own manual skills (though heat will be an issue for it.)

A lot of people say things like "Oh just you wait til I clobber your atlas in my trashcan!", which is silly, cause thats 99.9% never going to happen. That's not a constructive statement. However, "It's completely useless and other mechs can do the job better!" is also not a constructive statement. At least the first one is usually (if not always) meant in good humor.

The Urbanmech mounts "only" 30 armor points less than a Centurion . Glass half empty, glass half full.

As for "the big gun isn't that viable because the Jenner has 4 medium lasers and we aim with our mouse cursors not dice rolls", I noticed in the gameplay videos that the Jenners medium lasers, fired quad, often do not hit the same target location. True to the board game, they often hit different locations. So the "ACs are good 'cause they punch all their damage into one location" is still on the table. 4 medium lasers obviously do twice the damage than an AC-10, but you're comparing a 30 ton mech to a 35 ton mech. AC-10 is definitely better than 2 medium lasers though. 'Til the ammo runs out of course.

Edit: And Mattrixx already typed most all of this in the post behind this while I was taking my sweet time ;D.

Edited by Buck Rogers, 10 July 2012 - 01:42 AM.

[Kyuzo]

*eats popcorn*

i believe they should add it regardless of what people think about it.

if you don't want to pilot it then don't but don't come here and argue that it's a weak light mech that can't scout and etc because it's not that type of light mech it fit's a certain role.

all arguments against the urbanmech are invalid otherwise why would they put it in the other MW games?

Edited by Kyuzo, 10 July 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

First they put the hate on the Urbie and now they put the hate on the Commando as well? I can't believe this.
You haven't even played the game yet and you lay the hate down on everything that didn't work so well for you in previous titles.

For those that hate the Urbie and any mech for that matter i have only one thing to say - Mechlab.

[Buck Rogers]

Spleenslitta, on 10 July 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

First they put the hate on the Urbie and now they put the hate on the Commando as well? I can't believe this.
You haven't even played the game yet and you lay the hate down on everything that didn't work so well for you in previous titles.

For those that hate the Urbie and any mech for that matter i have only one thing to say - Mechlab.

I was the one "hating" on the Commando ;D !

I thought it would be useful show that while the Urbanmech has a limited role (designed for urban combat), thats not a a reason to discount it, as the Commando also has a limited role (it was designed to hunt the ubiquitous 20 ton scouts like the Wasp & Stinger - which aren't in the game. Yet.). I don't think my lesson worked at all though.

I've always liked the Commando. I think it works much better as a dedicated hunter of 20 ton scouts than it does a regular scout though. (Edit: To the point I really don't think it brings all its cards to the table without 20 ton scouts in the game.) Strongly makes me believe they'll add some 20 tonners, partly to give it some proper prey.

Edited by Buck Rogers, 10 July 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[Haldricht]

I absolutely want Urbanmechs in the game! I would never use one, but there's a chance one of my opponents would. It's crazy slow with low survivability - the perfect target.

[Aeryk Corsaer]

I feel the UrbanMech is a very role-specific BattleMech as its name suggests and does not adapt well to roles outside its stated purview. It is not flexible enough due to its construction and designed makeup to be used in anything but its normal role.

[Spleenslitta]

Buck Rogers, on 10 July 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

I was the one "hating" on the Commando ;D !

I thought it would be useful show that while the Urbanmech has a limited role (designed for urban combat), thats not a a reason to discount it, as the Commando also has a limited role (it was designed to hunt the ubiquitous 20 ton scouts like the Wasp & Stinger - which aren't in the game. Yet.). I don't think my lesson worked at all though.

I've always liked the Commando. I think it works much better as a dedicated hunter of 20 ton scouts than it does a regular scout though. Strongly makes me believe they'll add some 20 tonners, partly to give it some proper prey.

Okay.....no real hatred for it then. But on page 7 i think it was i made a point of making the Urbie into a battlemech that was fully capable of dishing out some major damage.
Oh i see...you saw that post and even smacked on a like. Thanks.

In any case that post really proves that any mech can become a valuable asset in the game. I have done 3 configs that makes the Commando capable of doing some respectable damage.
2 configs for long range with decent speed for open maps and one with ECM, less SRM's but more speed for urban maps.

All of these configs are good harrasers that survive through caution and speed rather than armor. I even managed to make the AC 2 which so many look down upon become a valuable weapon in one of these configs.

[Haydin]

Buck Rogers, on 09 July 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

You only get 5 shots of AC-20 if you want to keep 4 tons of armor (Jenner & Cicada standard). But on the upside, 1 shot should core a lot of mechs. In a base defense role the crit-busting nature of the AC-20 might remedy the 5 round limitation. Especially if they incorporate knock-down. Still probably not for me though.

Caseless ammo, oh how I yearn for thee.

[Terror Teddy]

Lets not also forget that in pure Light VS Light matches (come on, we will have those, just as we will have pure assault matches) a single AC20 against another light mech will HURT. Its a devastating weapon when used right. Aand with a bit of luck you might squeeze in a gauss gun instead.

I get this image in my head of Urbies popping each other like eggs with their AC20's in close cramped cityfight.

[Mattrixx]

In the Mechlab within the confines of its rules you can make any mech, big or small, into something completely different almost if you but want to do it.
But weather that new config of your modified mech is any good is entirely different thing.

For the Urbanmech the problem still seems to be that it appears to have only two (2) weapon mounts (one on each arm). But when you look at Sarna, and if we are to believe it, then that seems to hint that the Urbanmech can field more then just those two weapons. Possibly even 4 or if maybe even 6(?). The Capellan Confederation variant of the Urbanmech UM-R63 is a modified version of another earlier Capellan Confederation version with a machine gun on the torso.
Also the Sarna in plain text says this version is available with the LBX-AC/10 weapon even before 3050 (that means 3049 or possibly even earler). That means we have at least 3 variants now, some of which (possibly the prime variant too) are capable of fielding rather better selection of weapons then previously given. Also this hints that some advanced tech, like the LBX-AC's (some of them) might be available already in-game when we get into it.
Now this don't only mean the Urbanmech can use these but these upgraded nasties would be available for everyone.


Something else many seem to forget that in MWO you have a finite amount of armor on any given point of your mech. And ALL weapons, regardless what mech is fielding it does excatly the same amount of damage IF it hits. Yes, IF again. This is hitting your enemy is all very dependent of your skill to aim and fire (and your hardware to keep up as well as your network connections Ping) while the enemy, especially if they happen to know someone is firing at them, tries to keep you from shooting or at least hitting them while they shoot back at you or one of your friends. Yes, the enemy actually shoots back. It is a terrible idea I know but you must face this fact sooner or later.

The Lasers have a beam effect that requires you to keep the focus of the beam in as single a spot as you can make it while the ballistic weapons have a single point impact damage location but suffer from a finite number of ammo for them thus balancing them out with their infinite ammo lasers.

So while we are all debating on the finer points of a game that really has not come out to reach out and touch any of us personally, outside the beta testers which are under NDA anyway, we really cannot say still what exactly is what in the game, how it is and which way the wind blows and if it is blowing you or your enemy instead. There are still too many undefined variables and possibilities in the game.
Not just of the known but also the unknown and the hinted at possibilities that we might very possibly (or impossibly) expect to see in the game and during the games life.

[wargonglok]

The urbie is for people who want a light mech but don't want to scout.

can a jenner fire support? no but urbie can with direct fire support ac 2 or 5. can jenner or raven or commando brawl? maybe with mechlab, but urbie can brawl better. defense? urbie wins among current lights.

The urbie is a versatile weapons platform with low BV, if that matters at all. and i think some matches should have it matter

[John Prela]

Short Answer? The Urbanmech is a cheap combat unit that, if used correctly, can severely damage 'mechs that cost 3x the cost of itself. It's something that you use to fill up gaps in your battalion or to use in conjunction with slow vehicles that pack a lot of punch (SRM carriers, tanks, etc.). It's very useful in a logistical standpoint, since its weapons pack a lot of punch and are fairly easy to come by AND it may be able to down that 8 million C-Bill assault 'mech that just lumbered around the corner. But on a Mechwarrior game with little respawn options and where your team and the enemy team have the same amount of players, the Urbie's weaknesses become magnified.

I'm a big fan of the Urbie myself, but it's going to be a stretch to make it work in such a game like this. I can see the Urbanmech being used extensively on urban maps in Mechwarrior Tactics, however.

Edited by John Prela, 10 July 2012 - 05:23 AM.

[wargonglok]

Many people get distract because urbie has urban in his name. but you can make "him" snipe and make him more useful in open fields (anyone up for jj sniping Urbies?)

Edited by wargonglok, 10 July 2012 - 05:29 AM.