205 replies to this topic

[martian]

TheArisen, on 09 January 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

Could you provide a link about him? I can't find him. >.<

Starterbook: Wolf and Blake, p.40.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 10 January 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:

Starterbook: Wolf and Blake, p.40.

Your original post talks about other characters getting plot armor but this guy gets cybernetics. Idk if he can qualify. I mean, how much is the cybernetics & how much is his own skill?

[martian]

TheArisen, on 10 January 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

Your original post talks about other characters getting plot armor but this guy gets cybernetics. Idk if he can qualify. I mean, how much is the cybernetics & how much is his own skill?

Well, even before his Manei Domini ascension, he was better than aforementioned Marthe Pryde, for example.

He started his MechWarrior career on Tukayyid, when his ComGuard routed the Steel Vipers in extremely difficult terrain successfully.

He was a member of ROM units such as Blake's Wrath and later instructor (not a common member, but skilled instructor) of Light of Mankind. You know, those were guys that ComStar and Word of Blake used to dispatch on all kinds of covert operations in the Inner Sphere and in the Periphery. Equally competent in- and outside their 'Mechs.

And after his ascension, his skills have improved even more, thanks those implants and modifications.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 11 January 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Well, even before his Manei Domini ascension, he was better than aforementioned Marthe Pryde, for example.

He started his MechWarrior career on Tukayyid, when his ComGuard routed the Steel Vipers in extremely difficult terrain successfully.

He was a member of ROM units such as Blake's Wrath and later instructor (not a common member, but skilled instructor) of Light of Mankind. You know, those were guys that ComStar and Word of Blake used to dispatch on all kinds of covert operations in the Inner Sphere and in the Periphery. Equally competent in- and outside their 'Mechs.

And after his ascension, his skills have improved even more, thanks those implants and modifications.

Fair enough, I'm still a little reserved about his cybernetics putting him at a level he never attained himself.

But where would you rank him, let's say before & after ascension?

[martian]

TheArisen, on 12 January 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Fair enough, I'm still a little reserved about his cybernetics putting him at a level he never attained himself.

Well, then I must ask one semi-serious question: What about those Clanners?

Clan Trueborns are products of genetic manipulation. I mean, is it "unfair" for Manei Domini to get improved skills thanks implants, but "fair" for the Clanners to get improved skills thanks DNA manipulation?

TheArisen, on 12 January 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

But where would you rank him, let's say before & after ascension?

In my opinion:

• Before his ascension - about as good as Vlad Ward. Very very skilled, better than the majority of other IS and Clan Elite and Veteran 'MechWarriors. Maybe not as good as Kai Allard-Liao or Phelan Kell, but better than almost everyone else.
  
• After his ascension - improved Gunnery, but unchanged Piloting skill. Gained significant Initiative and battlefield awareness bonuses for him and his force. Both Berith and his "Guardian" are very hard to kill.

[Brian Davion]

martian, on 09 January 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

Actually, they don't.

actually they DO. A novel is an omniscient point of view most of the time, it tells us what happened. sourcebooks are, without exception (unless it's been changed very recently) in character sources, and thus prone to the errors of mistakes, and occasional outright lies. an example of this, the comstar sourcebook claims M ydro Waterly died of a brain hemmorage, except from the novels we know thats because she was shot in the head by Focht.

[martian]

Brian Davion, on 12 January 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

actually they DO. A novel is an omniscient point of view most of the time, it tells us what happened. sourcebooks are, without exception (unless it's been changed very recently) in character sources, and thus prone to the errors of mistakes, and occasional outright lies. an example of this, the comstar sourcebook claims M ydro Waterly died of a brain hemmorage, except from the novels we know thats because she was shot in the head by Focht.

Actually, as I have said, they don't.

This is the official CGL stance:

Quote

Question: "Do novels still rank above all the rest [i.e. sourcebooks etc.]?"
Answer: Hello,

No.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
BattleTech
Catalyst Game Labs

Herb Beas was the BattleTech Line Developer.

[Brian Davion]

martian, on 12 January 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Actually, as I have said, they don't.

This is the official CGL stance:


Herb Beas was the BattleTech Line Developer.

yes Martin I know who Herb is. I've talked to him. this musta been a fairly recent change in policy. one made ya know after they stopped writing novels anyway

[martian]

Brian Davion, on 13 January 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

yes Martin I know who Herb is. I've talked to him. this musta been a fairly recent change in policy. one made ya know after they stopped writing novels anyway

This was announced years ago.

[Brian Davion]

martian, on 13 January 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

This was announced years ago.

yeah proabvly after I stopped paying attention though, I basicly walked away from battletech for years shortly after TRO 3085 came out.

[CorranHorn]

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Re: Canon Hierarchy

« Reply #4 on: 16 October 2011, 21:14:20 »

Not sure if this follow up can be answered, but I'll give it a whirl. If there were conflicting information between an older novel and a more recent sourcebook, for example, which would take precedence? Is there a structure or ranking to know which (art, sourcebooks, novels, etc.) would override the other? Obviously we can ask here in these forums, but if there's a brief ranking that is used as a guide, it just cuts down on questions.

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Re: Canon Hierarchy

« Reply #5 on: 16 October 2011, 21:59:54 »



Hello,

Newer generally trumps older.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
BattleTech
Catalyst Game Labs

I think just to clarify a little, to me it seems that its not whether a source book per se trumps a novel, just whatever is newer, which for the most part is source books, but if a new novel came out, it may trump source books.

Edited by CorranHorn, 13 January 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[martian]

CorranHorn, on 13 January 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

I think just to clarify a little, to me it seems that its not whether a source book per se trumps a novel, just whatever is newer, which for the most part is source books, but if a new novel came out, it may trump source books.

Much would depend on the narrator and perspective of such new novel. At least sourcebooks let us often judge various MechWarriors and compare them, because they sometimes list their stats, special abilities, etc. objectively, out-of-character.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 12 January 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Well, then I must ask one semi-serious question: What about those Clanners?

Clan Trueborns are products of genetic manipulation. I mean, is it &quot;unfair&quot; for Manei Domini to get improved skills thanks implants, but &quot;fair&quot; for the Clanners to get improved skills thanks DNA manipulation?


In my opinion:

• Before his ascension - about as good as Vlad Ward. Very very skilled, better than the majority of other IS and Clan Elite and Veteran 'MechWarriors. Maybe not as good as Kai Allard-Liao or Phelan Kell, but better than almost everyone else.
  
• After his ascension - improved Gunnery, but unchanged Piloting skill. Gained significant Initiative and battlefield awareness bonuses for him and his force. Both Berith and his &quot;Guardian&quot; are very hard to kill.

So after ascension he'd be just about as good as Kai or Natasha in your opinion?

The thing about the clan trueborns is even with all the special genetics they still had to work really hard to attain their skills. There are clanners that were just pretty good and not great. For example, we've basically dismissed Marthe Pryde for the top ten and she was a Khan.

How about Malvina Hazen? Yeah her brother beat her but that's because he knew her so perfectly. She was beating the snot out of 3 Republic knights, one of whom was in an Atlas. She later becomes the JF Khan after Marthe Pryde.

[CorranHorn]

martian, on 13 January 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Much would depend on the narrator and perspective of such new novel. At least sourcebooks let us often judge various MechWarriors and compare them, because they sometimes list their stats, special abilities, etc. objectively, out-of-character.

Not disagreeing with that, just saying that newer is preferred, it seems, to the people who decide what canon is. So it could be the newest novel becomes the canon source, it is not always set to source books.
However I would definitely agree that they provide a more unbiased source, and yes they give stats verses "this mech pilot is seen as one of the best ever" sort of information on how good someone is.

[martian]

TheArisen, on 13 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

So after ascension he'd be just about as good as Kai or Natasha in your opinion?

Maybe slightly worse in piloting, especially if we consider that his "Guardian" was equipped with Small Cockpit.

And of course there are two things worth mentioning:

• Berith has significantly less "plot armor". Just count how many novels, short stories and other products you can read, that include descriptions of how magnificent Kai or Natasha were. Berith has hist SB and then just a few pieces of fiction and some brief sourcebook or scenariobook reports.
  
• Berith was a part of the bygone era, before all those 'Mech Quirks and Special Abilities were the thing. That means that he doesn't have them while other characters do.

TheArisen, on 13 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

The thing about the clan trueborns is even with all the special genetics they still had to work really hard to attain their skills.

And you think that Berith didn't have to work hard? Even before he got his implants, he was in Blake's Wrath and Light of Mankind special operations groups. That itself practically makes him elite MechWarrior.

TheArisen, on 13 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

There are clanners that were just pretty good and not great. For example, we've basically dismissed Marthe Pryde for the top ten and she was a Khan.

Honestly, don't idealize Clan Khans too much.

Some of them have attained their offices thanks their political proficiency, not because of their special MechWarrior skills. Khan of the Jade Falcons and ilKhan of the Clans Elias Crichell, for example. (I don't mean that Marthe Pryde was a bad pilot, but there are other ways how to get into the Khan office)

TheArisen, on 13 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

How about Malvina Hazen? Yeah her brother beat her but that's because he knew her so perfectly. She was beating the snot out of 3 Republic knights, one of whom was in an Atlas.

She's definitely Elite Clan MechWarrior.

TheArisen, on 13 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

She later becomes the JF Khan after Marthe Pryde.

I think there there were some other Jade Falcon Khans between Marthe Pryde and Malvina Hazen. Jana Pryde. Ruel Chistu. Samantha Clees. Maybe others.

[SnagaDance]

martian, on 12 January 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Clan Trueborns are products of genetic manipulation. I mean, is it "unfair" for Manei Domini to get improved skills thanks implants, but "fair" for the Clanners to get improved skills thanks DNA manipulation?

Clan Trueborns are rather the product of genetic selection and not really manipulation.

Even so, the success rate of Sibkos isn't really stellar. Sure, the few warriors they do turn out have great skill, but it isn't anything that you shouldn't expect from people that have been training since birth for a vocation. And there lies the great truth about Clan warriors IMO. They are not superior human beings, they are simply better trained.

Throughout time the better trained and equipped army has almost always been superior, often overcoming huge differences in size.

[BigJimJack]

Any dude who is ballsy enough to name his mech Legendkiller and win multiple times at Solaris gets my vote. Proof is in the custom Valhalla suite that no one dared enter when he wasn't around.

[martian]

SnagaDance, on 14 January 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

Clan Trueborns are rather the product of genetic selection and not really manipulation.

Even so, the success rate of Sibkos isn't really stellar. Sure, the few warriors they do turn out have great skill, but it isn't anything that you shouldn't expect from people that have been training since birth for a vocation. And there lies the great truth about Clan warriors IMO. They are not superior human beings, they are simply better trained.

Clan Trueborns are genetically engineered from carefully selected DNA strains - "carefully designed and bred" and that automatically gives them "Natural Aptitude ... for all skills in MechWarrior field". Or you can see the interesting results of such engineering for example on Aerospace pilots, for example.

Of course their training is important too.

But the question still stands: Why getting better skills thanks various implants surgeries is "unfair", while getting better skills (than you would probably have) because Clan scientists have played with your DNA - before you have been even born - is "fair".

SnagaDance, on 14 January 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

Throughout time the better trained and equipped army has almost always been superior, often overcoming huge differences in size.

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. See the Reunification War.

[TheArisen]

martian, on 14 January 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Clan Trueborns are genetically engineered from carefully selected DNA strains - &quot;carefully designed and bred&quot; and that automatically gives them &quot;Natural Aptitude ... for all skills in MechWarrior field&quot;. Or you can see the interesting results of such engineering for example on Aerospace pilots, for example.

Of course their training is important too.

But the question still stands: Why getting better skills thanks various implants surgeries is &quot;unfair&quot;, while getting better skills (than you would probably have) because Clan scientists have played with your DNA - before you have been even born - is &quot;fair&quot;.


Sometimes yes and sometimes no. See the Reunification War.

I think the difference comes in because even if a clan trueborn is bred/designed genetically to be a great pilot, it's not a free skill upgrade, they have to work for what they get. Some aren't very good actually,

But cybernetics? That's a freebie. Even someone that uses steroids has to keep working out. Cybernetics are just an automatic skill upgrade that's not entirely yours, it's the cybernetics.

[martian]

TheArisen, on 15 January 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

I think the difference comes in because even if a clan trueborn is bred/designed genetically to be a great pilot, it's not a free skill upgrade, they have to work for what they get. Some aren't very good actually,

But it is a free skill upgrade. Such Clan Trueborn has no credit on his own that all 'Mech related things are easier for him. Simply because Clan scientists mixed his DNA before has has been born. Seems to me that it's a pretty nice example of a freebie: Starting in a better position than other MechWarriors, without having to lift a finger for it.

TheArisen, on 15 January 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

But cybernetics? That's a freebie. Even someone that uses steroids has to keep working out. Cybernetics are just an automatic skill upgrade that's not entirely yours, it's the cybernetics.

Actually, a Clan Trueborn with his Natural Aptitude has a clear advantage. Everything is easier for him. MD implants come with downsides such as possible madness and similar things. This is something what no Clan Trueborn has to be afraid of, because his Natural Aptitude has no such negatives.