367 replies to this topic

[Kira Onime]

He wants more feedback on "tonnage ranges" ....... he just doesn't get it does he?

[pwnface]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Ok where's the "opinion" in the following statements:

Clan XL engines can survive an ST loss, IS XL engines cannot.
Many clan weapons are lighter than their IS equivalents.
Many clan weapons are smaller/require less crit space than their IS equivalents.
Many clan weapons shoot farther than their IS equivalents.
Many clan weapons hit harder than their IS equivalents.
Clan double heat sinks are smaller than IS heat sinks.

You find an 'opinion' in ANY of those statements, if you can...

I like how you conveniently IGNORE all the points I listed in favor of IS despite quoting it directly...

Quote

Clan and IS mechs use a different set of weapons which have different characteristics. IS lasers have shorter beam durations, non-stream autocannons, can run standard engines, can switch engines.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention MEGAQUIRKS.

Both sides have distinct advantages/disadvantages that add to the flavor of gameplay. If all of the clan advantages existed WITHOUT any IS advantages, then one would be able to more concretely state that Clans are more powerful. Don't be so blinded to push your opinions as fact, it makes you look incredibly foolish.

Edited by pwnface, 21 October 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Mystere]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

I find this to be blatantly untrue. There is a huge difference between a group of disorganized 12 lights trying to rush objectives and a coordinated team using 12 lights to kill the enemy team. If a team can shoot well AND can set up in a reasonable formation with enough space to get free hits on lights as they approach THEN they can deal with them. PUG teams stand no chance, even organized 12 mans would lose to it constantly, our CW track record (in beta 1) speaks for itself.

Ahem!

Ahem!

In another post, I already said the (Clan Jade Falcon) PUG teams I dropped with eventually were able to learn to deal with 12-light rushes. And a number of those light rushes were from the defender side. So we'd all naturally think they jumped the gates to try to kill the attackers, right? Or were they just horsing around?

[pwnface]

Mystere, on 21 October 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Ahem!

Ahem!

In another post, I already said the (Clan Jade Falcon) PUG teams I dropped with eventually were able to learn to deal with 12-light rushes. And a number of those light rushes were from the defender side. So we'd all naturally think they jumped the gates to try to kill the attackers, right? Or were they just horsing around?

I guess it depends on what team is doing the light rush. Light rushing doesn't mean auto win, but decent pilots that are coordinating in comms should have absolutely no trouble destroying PUGs. I mean if your CJF PUG team is dropping against some of the worse Marik or Davion teams I'd be surprised if you guys weren't able to stop them.

[Aresye]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

Oh yeah I forgot to mention MEGAQUIRKS.

Had an NBT battle on Alpine Peaks where we got to experience just how one-sided the battle can be when facing super-quirked ERLL builds. We ran EBJs, HBRs, and TBRs w/ CERLL builds, and by the time we lost 0-8, we had barely managed to scratch the opposition. The enemy team ran 4 TDR-5SS's and 4 RVN-4Xs.

A few days later we tested those 2 mechs internally under similar conditions.

[Dimento Graven]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

I like how you conveniently IGNORE all the points I listed in favor of IS despite quoting it directly...

OFFS!

<sigh> Ok little lady, here you go:

Quote

IS lasers have shorter beam durations

Ok, and? You're doing more damage with each shot, so part of why that is, is because your laser burns longer. Start burning at the same duration as IS and magically your damage is nerfed to match IS damage.

And due to smaller size and crit requirements, you can load more of 'em than the IS 'mech can.

AS IT IS, even with the somewhat longer durations clan DPS still exceeds IS DPS, AND AT LONGER RANGES.

What a truly pathetic trade off your whining about there...

Quote

, non-stream autocannons,

With more impact flash, longer ranges, smaller and lighter sizes, you can still hit at longer rangers, and pack much more of them than the typical IS 'mech.

Again the 'trade off' you're trying to refer to is laughable.

Quote

can run standard engines,

You'll have to explain why that's an advantage. I can't for the life of me figure out why a Clan 'mech would want to load a standard engine, and what benefit it would get from doing so.

I fully acknowledge there might be some sort of beneficial tradeoff I'm unaware of here, so if you can educate me on this, I'm willing to listen.

Quote

can switch engines.

Yes, this is a small advantage that IS have over Clans, it sure heck doesn't compensate for the squishy XL engines, or having to load up standard engines and lose LOTS of weight to the engines to maintain any speed OR sacrifice speed so that we'll have space left over for weaponry.

Now we come to the part of your previous statement that resulted in me ignoring your so called 'points':

Quote

Does this mean IS mechs are on par or better than Clan mechs? Certainly not, I think some clan chassis do have significant advantages over IS mechs but that is just my OPINION.

The fact that even you acknowledge that IS 'mechs are not on par, let alone 'better' than Clan 'mechs indicates that at some level you acknowledge the flimsiness of your 'points' when compared to the compounding factor of being able to load up smaller, lighter, harder hitting, longer reaching weapons on a platform with an XL engine that is EXTREMELY durable when compared to it's IS alternative.

Quote

Oh yeah I forgot to mention MEGAQUIRKS.

Which the Clans have whine about so fiercly for so long, even though it only brought a FEW IS builds to being CLOSE, not EQUAL, to their Clan equivalent in very singular build outs. SO FIERCE has been the whining that PGI is doing its best to eliminate the 'megaquirks'...

If you can point me to a 'megaquirk' that allows an IS engine to survive a side torso loss, shrink the crit locations by as many as 2, hit with harder damage, again you may have a point.

AS IT IS, some of the quirks only allowed specific weapons on specific builds to reach as far, or maybe in one or two cases a bit farther than the Clans could, BUT, of course on those particular chassis the clan equivalents always could bring a LARGER alpha, and generally, could move much faster, and absolutely survive an ST loss.

So... The mitigation to Clan OPness was extremely minimal, at best.

Quote

Both sides have distinct advantages/disadvantages that add to the flavor of gameplay. If all of the clan advantages existed WITHOUT any IS advantages, then one would be able to more concretely state that Clans are more powerful. Don't be so blinded to push your opinions as fact, it makes you look incredibly foolish.

The IS has very few 'advantages' over the Clans.

Yep, we can load and unload our armor types and internal structure and engines. BUT, I can NOT swap a module in my Raven 4X and give it ECM like you can with ANY Clan ECM capable chassis either.

Sorry, but the few bread crumbs PGI has tossed the IS over the years has done little to compensate for the constant felating the clans have received...

And let ME point out how you've yet to find an 'opinion' from my list of facts.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 October 2015 - 01:55 PM.

[Xetelian]

https://twitter.com/...716328884023296

They really don't think a team of 7-8 SCRs is problematic

[pwnface]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

And let ME point out how you've yet to find an 'opinion' from my list of facts.

Yes, you have a list of facts. Your statement that Clans are OP is an OPINION that you've formed based on facts.

Not everyone agrees with you, get over yourself dude.

Please read about opinion vs facts, here have a link:
http://www.auburn.ed...rraba/fact.html

[Myke Pantera]

The 10xStormcrow problem can be overcome by adding chassis count limits to the min/max limits. The bigger the group, the smaller the mech per chassis count should be.

• No restrictions for groups up to 4
  
• 3 mechs per chassis for groups between 5 and 8
  
• 2 mechs per chassis for groups larger equals 9

Like the idea? vote here

[Mystere]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

I guess it depends on what team is doing the light rush. Light rushing doesn't mean auto win, but decent pilots that are coordinating in comms should have absolutely no trouble destroying PUGs. I mean if your CJF PUG team is dropping against some of the worse Marik or Davion teams I'd be surprised if you guys weren't able to stop them.

So the real "problem" is "decent pilots that are coordinating in comms" fighting against PUGs, and not them running 12 lights. -- Good. I'm glad that is crystal clear.

Also, it's not really the new drop weight system that is the problem. That's just an excuse. -- That's even better.

Edited by Mystere, 21 October 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

Yes, you have a list of facts. Your statement that Clans are OP is an OPINION that you've formed based on facts.

Wow, so fact+fact+fact+fact+fact = OPINION?

Interesting.

Quote

Not everyone agrees with you, get over yourself dude.

No one has to agree with me, but to argue with the facts by mislabeling them as "opinion" is stupid.

Quote

Please read about opinion vs facts, here have a link:
http://www.auburn.ed...rraba/fact.html

Yeah, you should really read that too.

[pwnface]

Mystere, on 21 October 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

So the real "problem" is "decent pilots that are coordinating in comms" fighting against PUGs, and not them running 12 lights. -- Good. I'm glad that is crystal clear.

So it's not really the new drop weight system that is the problem. That's just an excuse. -- That's even better.

Well having decent pilots that are coordinating in comms is compounded by being able to run 10 of the same mech. Limiting the drop to 3/3/3/3 makes it much more difficult for your ENTIRE team to keep up.

Coordinated teams communicating in comms is always going to be an advantage and not one that we should take away, rather we should try to ensure that the playing field is more even for smaller groups.

[r4plez]

Damn, ACH need a buff.

[pwnface]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Wow, so fact+fact+fact+fact+fact = OPINION?

Interesting.

Actually yes, fact + fact + fact = OPINION. That's how opinions are generally formed, at least by people who like to have informed opinions.

Michael Jordan averaged like 30 points per game throughout his career. Fact
Kobe Bryant averaged like 25 points per game throughout his career. Fact

Michael Jordan is better at basketball than Kobe. Opinion.
Kobe is Bryant is better at basketball than Jordan. Also an Opinion.

Clans are OP. Opinion.

Even the phrase OP is subjective. What OP means to you may not be what OP means to me or any other player. If a mech performs on average 5% better than another mech does it make it OP? If a mech performs on average 20% better than another mech does it make it OP?

Stop mixing opinions and facts. It isn't that hard. I'm pretty sure most people learn this **** in elementary school dude.

[Appogee]

After you all finish comprehensively breaking the tonnage restrictions, PGI are going to say "well it's clear we have to limit groups to a maximum size of four".

They warned us this was their last attempt to fix things before restricting group sizes.

GG own goal.

[9thDeathscream]

LOL Keeping tabs on twitter.

Seems the majority like the changes.

[Dimento Graven]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

...

Clans are OP. Opinion.

********, I've demonstrated, through the facts that they are, AS A MATTER OF FACT, BECAUSE OF VERY SPECIFIC FACTS, over powered, when compared to their IS equivalent.

Quote

Even the phrase OP is subjective. What OP means to you may not be what OP means to me or any other player. If a mech performs on average 5% better than another mech does it make it OP? If a mech performs on average 20% better than another mech does it make it OP?

Ah see now we get into a distracting little quibble of the definition of OP.

The definition of OP has come down to the following:

When it requires an amount of skill or luck, extraordinary as compared to others of its class, to overcome, it can be generally considered "OP".

When one thing and it's supposed opposite equivalent are pitted against each other by people of equal skill, utilizing equal tactics and strategy, making the same number of mistakes, and one of those two things comes out "on top" more than 50% of the time, it can be considered "OP".

Quote

Stop mixing opinions and facts. It isn't that hard. I'm pretty sure most people learn this **** in elementary school dude.

As soon as you can PROVE that Clan 'mechs AREN'T OP, you can call my statements opinion. The fact that you can't prove it, or can only provide extremely limited, very specific examples where IS has a small advantage on A particular system, on A particular chassis, goes a LONG way into proving my statements, based on fact, are not only FACT, but FACT to the point of not even being seriously arguable.

[pwnface]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

When one thing and it's supposed opposite equivalent are pitted against each other by people of equal skill, utilizing equal tactics and strategy, making the same number of mistakes, and one of those two things comes out "on top" more than 50% of the time, it can be considered "OP".

So based on this super limited definition that you just made, if anything comes out on top more than 50% of the time it's OP. This is the most ridiculous thing you've said so far and is basically asking for 100% perfect balance, which is an impossibility.

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

As soon as you can PROVE that Clan 'mechs AREN'T OP, you can call my statements opinion. The fact that you can't prove it, or can only provide extremely limited, very specific examples where IS has a small advantage on A particular system, on A particular chassis, goes a LONG way into proving my statements, based on fact, are not only FACT, but FACT to the point of not even being seriously arguable.

I don't have to prove anything to tell you that your opinion is not a fact. I'm not arguing that your opinion is correct or incorrect, I'm merely explaining to you, as I would a small grade school child, the difference between an opinion and a fact. It seems you lack the intellectual capacity to understand the difference between these two concepts. I see no reason to continue this discussion if you can't understand the distinction.

GOOD DAY SIR.

[Novakaine]

The very best anti-mech swarm tactic.

[Kira Onime]

Appogee, on 21 October 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

After you all finish comprehensively breaking the tonnage restrictions, PGI are going to say "well it's clear we have to limit groups to a maximum size of four".

They warned us this was their last attempt to fix things before restricting group sizes.

GG own goal.

But then again.

What was the problem with groups and who the **** asked for this tonnage system?