385 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

dante51, on 23 October 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

Why? It just should be fitted into the gameplay - e.g. alpha strike = seme bad consequences. Why would you want to affect gameplay with some weird and illogical limitations?

because the armor distribution we have now is based on a 2d6 hit allocation.

or in other words: a COM-2D in TT can get killed with a chance of 3% in one hit by a large laser
but the same COM-2D can take 5 hits of MedLasers without any critical damage.

This behaviour is complete missing in MWO. Quite the opposite. A COM-2D may survive a hit by a single large laser without consequences but 5 MLAS with shorter burn duration would cripple it

[Archie4Strings]

The thing is: The quirks make it unfair, because pilots of the said mechs, dont get punished by a lot of heat anymore, which is the instrument to balance an abuse of high laser alphas (and we are just talking about high alphas caused by lasers! Nobody is talking about UACs, Gauss or PPCS)

Having 8 ER Medium Lasers hitting one spot is part of the game. The Nova (in theory) has 12 Er Medium Lasers! And it is fine, because its instant suicide shooting so many Lasers in one.

So saying that 8 Medium lasers (doesnt matter if IS or Clan) hitting one spot is unfair or should not exist at all, would destroy the Game. As long as it creates a lot of heat, it is fine! You make one alpha and then you run away cause you gotta cooldown. But the current mechanic doesnt punish the said laserboates. And that is, what should not exist!
It negates the normal disadvantage of lasers and by this, it makes them more powerful than other weapontypes.
Trying to avoid this problem by requiring a lock up of a target mech is not a solution. Just because it tries to solve a selfmade problem with another new created mechanic which will cause new and different problems, leading again to new mechanics... thats endless and will just complicate the game!

So i say:
Rebalance a few mechs, just make little changes (f.E. give new omnipods to the Nova and summoner without jumpjets) That makes these mechs more variabel and it would finally make the summoner probably at least as strong as the Stormcrow (while having 15 tons more!)

But the Summoner and the Nova (maybe also gargoyle and executioner) are just a Clan-Intern balancing problem. These mechs are less powerfull compared to stormcrows, ebon Jaguars and timber wolfs! Making these both mechs more variabel would just create a larger diversity of seen mechs on the battlefields! It will not affect the balancing between IS and Clans.

Thing is: There are much more IS-Mechs to chose from, than clan-mechs. And among the fewer clanmechs are still many ones, which are designed in a really ineffective way (Summoner, Nova, Executioner, Gargoyle, Kit Fox...)
i think that 90% of the played Omnimechs are Arctic Chetaah, Shadow Cat, Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Warhawk and Dire Wolf. And Direwolf just works for Public Matches, i have rarely seen it in CW-matches.


At the moment (and i tthink we all agree) the problem is, that IS-Laserboats are kind of OP. So, that problem will be fixed once all the quirks are kicked out. The Clan-Tech is already nerved really hard by not having pin point damage for the AC/UACs, splash damage for ER PPCs, really many fix installed double heatsinks, no changeable engines or jump jets, really high costs of the Omnimechs. Even Endo and Ferro Fibrit cant be changed and recudes the loadouts really much.
Also the higher range of the Clan-Tech cannot be used, cause the maps are by 90% not large enough, to take an advantage out of it...

[Archie4Strings]

Karl Streiger, on 23 October 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

because the armor distribution we have now is based on a 2d6 hit allocation.

or in other words: a COM-2D in TT can get killed with a chance of 3% in one hit by a large laser
but the same COM-2D can take 5 hits of MedLasers without any critical damage.

This behaviour is complete missing in MWO. Quite the opposite. A COM-2D may survive a hit by a single large laser without consequences but 5 MLAS with shorter burn duration would cripple it

I understand your point, but this is a computer game and in this way much more realistic: Shooting (f.E.) 6 Lasers, located on the same spot in the same arm, will all hit the same location of the enemy (perhaps with a radius equal to the distance of the laser weapons to each other). And not like: 1 Lasers hits the head, 3 hit the center torso and 2 hit the legs.
And it is really fine! I mean, Lasers need time to cause the full damage on one hitzone. if the target doesnt move to avoid this, well then... learn to be a better pilot.
And also:
The 2d6 mechanic was not made, to balance Laser Alphas. I think it is much more a result of finding an easy and fast way to locate the hit zones. And by the way: in TT, IS and Clans were not balanced, so we cannot compare our discussion to the TT.

[dante51]

Archie4Strings, on 23 October 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

You make one alpha and then you run away cause you gotta cooldown. But the current mechanic doesnt punish the said laserboates. And that is, what should not exist!

That's what I'm talking about. We need some heat-related penalties - slower speed, torso rotating speed, visual effects on the screen, electronics temp. failure due to the high heat and etc. It can be also a way an additional balance tool for all mechs and will increase an immersion a lot.

[Cataclysm315]

ILikePeaches, on 23 October 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

Some mechs are so meta you can't torso twist the laser damage. For example a Hunchie 4P, TDR-5SS, and the BL-7-KNT-L just to name a few off the top of my head. Those all can have builds that are pinpoint laser cutters with amazing quirks that cut duration down to almost nothing noticeable. You can surgically take apart other more balanced mechs with ease. This isn't really an issue with missiles and ballistics outside of gauss (but that's expected of gauss and it has plenty of cons to go with it).

Ok now that's a fair point here. But that puts the problem with the quirks on those mechs meaning they need a nerf. It doesn't mean you have to nerf everyone and everything and buff armour. If we make meta builds just a bit less meta then this will be fine.

[Archie4Strings]

dante51, on 23 October 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

That's what I'm talking about. We need some heat-related penalties - slower speed, torso rotating speed, visual effects on the screen, electronics temp. failure due to the high heat and etc. It can be also a way an additional balance tool for all mechs and will increase an immersion a lot.

No there is already is a heat penalty: Structure Damage and shutting of the Mech. But the (mainly IS-) quirks negotiate this penatly and that is why the so called and typical laser boats like thunderbolt, hunchback etc. can shoot many alphas without being punished and making Laser Alphas from a few mechs unbalanced.. So we just need to remove the quirks from the Game to rebalance it.
It would force IS to play less stronger laser boats and thats it!

New Heatrelated penalties would effect all mechs. That is nonsense as long as there are quirks which reduce the heat generation about 15%, which makes mechs with this Quirks absolutely OP compared to other mechs.

[Karl Streiger]

Archie4Strings, on 23 October 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

I understand your point, but this is a computer game and in this way much more realistic: Shooting (f.E.) 6 Lasers, located on the same spot in the same arm, will all hit the same location of the enemy (perhaps with a radius equal to the distance of the laser weapons to each other). And not like: 1 Lasers hits the head, 3 hit the center torso and 2 hit the legs.
And it is really fine! I mean, Lasers need time to cause the full damage on one hitzone. if the target doesnt move to avoid this, well then... learn to be a better pilot.
And also:
The 2d6 mechanic was not made, to balance Laser Alphas. I think it is much more a result of finding an easy and fast way to locate the hit zones. And by the way: in TT, IS and Clans were not balanced, so we cannot compare our discussion to the TT.

Its not only Lasers.... take the PPC as an example.... considering the development of PPCs.
Say you could have Light and Heavy PPCs ind MWO.

Light PPC - 5heat 5 PPFLD 3ton (90m min range)
Heavy PPC 15heat 15 PPFLD 10tons (120min range)

if you got the energy hardpoints would you even think about taking the HPPC?
Because in the end the combination of 3x LPPC would damage a target with 15dmg also (no twisting will prevent that)

No of course not its the same as with the LRM5 - if you got the Hardpoints you should take the LRM5 simple because its spread is much smaller.

[Hotthedd]

dante51, on 23 October 2015 - 12:29 AM, said:

Honestly I don't understand problem with high alpha. I have different mechs with different builds, some of them high alpha builds. Besides being a part of the lore, it's present nearly at every multiplayer game (from Dota to Counter-Strike). Why do you want to get rid off it?

A lot of good configs (and mechs too) were killed with ghost heat, instead of balancing other weapons and now, the same mistake is happening.

Being able to reliably hit one spot with multiple weapons is definitely NOT part of BattleTech lore. As a matter of fact, in the lore, it was so INCREDIBLY unlikely that an entire star system was won by a MechWarrior hitting a target with 2 gauss rifles hitting a target firing simultaneously.

As far as DoTA and CS, those games already exist. If MW:O merely strives to be a clone of those games in 'mech skins, it will NEVER compete.

[Archie4Strings]

Karl Streiger, on 23 October 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

Its not only Lasers.... take the PPC as an example.... considering the development of PPCs.
Say you could have Light and Heavy PPCs ind MWO.

Light PPC - 5heat 5 PPFLD 3ton (90m min range)
Heavy PPC 15heat 15 PPFLD 10tons (120min range)

if you got the energy hardpoints would you even think about taking the HPPC?
Because in the end the combination of 3x LPPC would damage a target with 15dmg also (no twisting will prevent that)

No of course not its the same as with the LRM5 - if you got the Hardpoints you should take the LRM5 simple because its spread is much smaller.

You are bringing up something that does not exist in this game to make your point. that does not make any sense! Cmon!
Argue reasonable. There are no heavy or light PPCs and there is no reason to consider that there could!

I think i get your point, but there are many more things to consider if you argue like that! What about ghost heat for Light PPCS? Maybe 3 LPPCs cause already Ghostheat, so one HPPC creates lesser heat (=HPPC would make sense).
What about a HPPC got a larger max range (= HPPC would make sense)
And btw:
You cannot avoide any Pinpoint damage by torsotwist from a PPC (doesnt matter if clan or is, ER or normal). But that is ok, because PPCs create huge amount of heat in every mech! Just the Warhawk Primes arms reduce the PPCs heat by 10%, but it is still running hot. So PPCs are not the Problem!
You remember the 3 PPC thunderbolt? That was a quirkproblem! Not a IS/Clan-Balance Problem

Lasersboats with a heat reduce of 15% for laserweapons are a problem!

[Karl Streiger]

Maybe i just wanted to prevent the argument "learn to twist" because you can't spread damage of a PPC

Of course those weapons could have other issues like the Clan ERPPC using splash damage.
Anyhow Alpha is a challenge for MWO quirks made them worse (but are not the reason) - Ghost heat was just another mechanic to prevent Alpha weapons (BOOMCats; SplashCats; PPCCats; Hexstalker....)

As it looks PGI want to use tonnage to balance game in MM - but using tonnage also means 5t of equipment x should have the same efficiency as 5t of equipment y - and 5 MLAS vs 1 Large Laser, even after considering the "extra" heat nerf for the MLAS and the heat & damage buff & increased range for the large laser - are not equal. - 25dmg vs 9 dmg is not balanced

I really would like to see how things would play out if we could increase the ROF of smaller weapons for huge drain in damage (for example to deal 25dmg those 5 MLAS have to fire 5times - while the Large Laser only need 1 discharge)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 October 2015 - 06:03 AM.

[tenchugecko]

Insert a Laser Charge mechanic

1)instant fire mode keeps lasers hotter
2)normal mode needs a shorter than gauss chargeup time


Make fast laser aim movement harder while firing moar lasers. ghost heat for torso twist.


The Targeting System seems not the final answer

[Cataclysm315]

tenchugecko, on 23 October 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

Insert a Laser Charge mechanic

1)instant fire mode keeps lasers hotter
2)normal mode needs a shorter than gauss chargeup time


Make fast laser aim movement harder while firing moar lasers. ghost heat for torso twist.


The Targeting System seems not the final answer

Ok, are you suggesting that move your torso should add to the heat of the lasers when firing? Not being a ****, just asking

[PanzerMagier]

Not this again.

Heat is the alpha build problem.

Reduce heat capacity, increase or keep heat cooling the same.
Introduce a heat scale penalty. Heat over 20, slower movement twisting. over 50, ammo starts chance poping, weapon convergence lose.

Just adjust any of those 3 to make that heat neutral and volley fire builds comes in a viable and competing playstyle to alpha stronk builds.

been saying this for over 3 years now. Aint gonna happen buddy. High alpha builds are here to stay, this is how PGI wants it.

If you want more variety in your alpha builds
HERE http://mwomercs.com/...wo-more-dreamy/

[Kira Onime]

Kjudoon, on 22 October 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

so many 'elite skilled' and tryhard players who are strongly opposing any change in this manner use as their bread and butter.

You had a good point until you decided to make yourself look like an idiot.

[Hotthedd]

PanzerMagier, on 23 October 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Not this again.

I'm afraid that as long as there is reliable pinpoint convergence while firing multiple weapons simultaneously, threads like this will continue.

PanzerMagier, on 23 October 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Heat is the alpha build problem.

I disagree. The ability to destroy a component with one click is the biggest problem. Heat is not such a big issue when your opponent is dead.

PanzerMagier, on 23 October 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Reduce heat capacity, increase or keep heat cooling the same.
Introduce a heat scale penalty. Heat over 20, slower movement twisting. over 50, ammo starts chance poping, weapon convergence lose.

Just adjust any of those 3 to make that heat neutral and volley fire builds comes in a viable and competing playstyle to alpha stronk builds.

Great suggestions, and it would add a layer of depth to gameplay.

PanzerMagier, on 23 October 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

been saying this for over 3 years now. Aint gonna happen buddy. High alpha builds are here to stay, this is how PGI wants it.

Very true, unfortunately.
PGI will one day have to realize this is the single biggest mistake they made. Either they will re-work it, or they will be out of the MechWarrior business by the time they realize it.

If you can fire 2 or more weapons and hit the same spot, you cannot balance weapons. There is no way to make a single weapon viable without making multiples of it overpowered. Same thing with lock-on weapons, and it is the reason LRMs are only effective when boated - - they are not competitive on their own.

In lore, an Alpha strike was lucky to land more than a third of the shots fired. In MW:O, every shot is EXPECTED to hit the same component.

[Tombstoner]

Archie4Strings, on 23 October 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

I understand your point, but this is a computer game and in this way much more realistic: Shooting (f.E.) 6 Lasers, located on the same spot in the same arm, will all hit the same location of the enemy (perhaps with a radius equal to the distance of the laser weapons to each other). And not like: 1 Lasers hits the head, 3 hit the center torso and 2 hit the legs.
And it is really fine! I mean, Lasers need time to cause the full damage on one hitzone. if the target doesnt move to avoid this, well then... learn to be a better pilot.
And also:
The 2d6 mechanic was not made, to balance Laser Alphas. I think it is much more a result of finding an easy and fast way to locate the hit zones. And by the way: in TT, IS and Clans were not balanced, so we cannot compare our discussion to the TT.

A 2d6 mechanic can be easily translated to a FPS by knowing the new hit frequencies. In TT a 2d6 hits the CT on a 7. the most frequent number rolled on a 2d6. ~ 16% of the time. what is the CT hit frequency in MWO on an atlas. Bet ya its higher than 40%. CT armor effectively nerfed from day one.

PGI just needs to base line a hit profile for each mech and what comes out is an armor co-factor that adjusts armor strength. This is the first step in solving the alpha issue.

This is an extremely important consideration for a FPS because mech shape affects hit frequency. Its why some mechs are inherently better then others. what players refer to as favorable hit boxes. Something TT didn't have to worry about, but in MWO it fundamental alters the mech construction cost functions and performance. Armor takes a huge hit. it trivializes assault mechs and shortens TTK unnecessarily.

dante51, on 23 October 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

That's what I'm talking about. We need some heat-related penalties - slower speed, torso rotating speed, visual effects on the screen, electronics temp. failure due to the high heat and etc. It can be also a way an additional balance tool for all mechs and will increase an immersion a lot.

I favor them. but i suspect PGI has looked into them and determined they are either to abrupt or so subtle they are of little consequences.... too strong and players would objects as their mech is cruising then alphas and gets hit with a 25 or 50% reduction is speed. it would kill the peek and poke game play.

Edited by Tombstoner, 23 October 2015 - 08:25 AM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

There is an additional aspect of why Clan laser alpha such a problem: damage.

Look at other clan weapons and you see that they are either lighter or have greater range and are lighter, but that their damage values are pretty much the same as IS.

Look at lasers and see that they are: 1) lighter, 2) have greater range AND 3) do quite a bit more damage!

That's ridiculous!!!

Reduce this damage to be the same as IS. Give Clans the range, increase their heat and make Clans spend the extra tonnage on heatsinks.

Then, normalize the relationship between heat:range:damage:recycle:duration (could be done by creating 1:1 ratios for each comparison) and apply it to both Clans and IS.

Finally, as I've said many times (I swear I'll stop soon!), lower the heat shutdown threshold and add a second "suicide threshold".

Increase cooling efficiency.

Balance achieved, (laser) alpha problem solved.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Just as an addendum:

@Archie4Strings:

Those over-Quirked IS 'Mechs were Quirked such to compete with the Clan Energy Meta. So, the root of those god-Quirks is as the ease of Clan energy boating and particularly the triple-threat of Clan lasers.

[Smargl]

Guys, who think all this rebalance will make them die less often, that it will improve their playing expirience. Well... it will not guys,you will continue to die from ballistics and srm-lrms.All this rebalances just changing meta. How? How is it possible that beam of light, changes its damage output, because of red square around target. Its a joke.I`m sorry maybe in BT universe physics laws are not the same as in real one, and i just dont know about.

[Ragnahawk]

Can we complain about uac5s too? You can fire endlessly, dealing 20 points of damage every single second with 4 uac 5's plus the jam chance. I think lasers are just overrated in comparison.