246 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

There is actually somewhat of a method to this madness, though. In many (if not most cases), the subconscious goal that people have is not to bring balance or equality, but just to get their pet-peeve enemies nerfed or their own personal builds/mechs improved.

The most recent example of this was the new Ghost Damage mechanic from the PTS session 2. A large number of the people supporting Ghost Damage like it because they wanted a nerf to lasers. ANY nerf of ANY kind. They don't care if it gets done in a way that makes sense or results in actual balance, they just will take absolutely anything and everything that makes the evil laser mechs die. It's about nerfing the things they don't like at all costs. They only care about the end, with no regard for the means being used to achieve that end.

When this game tries to take the approach of playing the appeasement whack-a-mole minigame to nerf whatever it is that people don't like at that point in time, it always ends up spawning a new meta to replace it. ALWAYS. Every single time. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

People who hated (and still do hate) the PPFLD boogeyman got PPCs and ACs nerfed, which then led to laser vomit taking full dominance. When those weapons got smacked down, people said the same things that they're saying in this thread. "Oh, those adorable little meta baby-eating no-skill scumbag tryhards, they just don't want their [insert item here] to get nerfed! They don't want to lose their crutch!" The truth of the matter is that many of those people using the other builds are the same ones who are using laser vomit to kill you today.

It's just like, for example, when most of the people who killed you with a Highlander switched to using Victors after the HGN got smacked down. Or it's like when PPC + AC builds were a thing right after Ghost Heat came out to kill off the 4 PPC Stalker. Or when people stopped using SRMs when those got pummeled into the ground into near uselessness (1.5 damage per missile, hello!). Or when the Clan LPL usage spiked instantly on the day that the Clan ER Large got a beam duration of 2.0 seconds (the mighty Wubhawk was born on this day).

Due to the fact that most of this forum is concentrated on playing "whack a mole" to hunt down whatever it is that killed them most recently, the "baseline" is a moving target that won't ever stay down. When you cut the head off a hydra, three heads will take its place. When the only tool you have is a sledgehammer, everything around you starts to look like a nail.

This is a cyclical process right now. All of this has happened before, and I can assure you that it will happen again. And when it does happen again, all of those who are calling laser users meta-baby-eating no-skill-scumbag-tryhards will say all of the EXACT same things about the new meta as they say about the current one. This is not speculation or hypothetical, this is a prophetical foretelling.

Edited by FupDup, 30 October 2015 - 07:40 AM.

[Dread Render]

cdlord, If we had It your way there would really only be one mech per weight class.
the only difference from mech to mech would be how it looked.
now... I guess that would be okay, but it would not really be a Mechwarrior game any more.
In MechWarrior some Mech ARE JUST BETTER than others.
It is the PLAYERS CHOICE to decide what Mech to play.

You are a Fascist and would try put down people who do not agree with you.

[Bishop Steiner]

I see the Tier 1 badge continues to go to some people's heads.

Color me unimpressed.


You know, it's weak people that need to lean on crutches. It could be argued that Meta builds are the ultimate crutch.

Just saying.

[Mister Blastman]

White Bear 84, on 30 October 2015 - 01:03 AM, said:

Meta does not = skill.

So less than meta builds are fun, they raise the challenge bar and add variety to the game.. ..in the right hands they can run just as well as the meta.

Player need to realise we will always have meta and it will always change. It could be more balanced, but it is much better balanced now than it has been in the past..

I rather close grindy matches, steamrolls are boring easy mode wins. Make me torso twist and duck n dive to avoid that last mech, so I can sit back at the end and either win/lose say.. ..that was awesome. That is MWO.

#vote1bearforpotus

Well... there are limitations to non-meta builds. That's why they aren't "meta." And you need to work harder to use them... and most are purely situational with drawbacks that meta users don't have to deal with. But you can still do well in them. Just don't expect to pull of 1k damage drops with ease or at all--at least, not often.

[Daelen Rottiger]

LIKE A BOSS

[Mycrus]

PholkLorr, on 29 October 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Weak, illogical players destroy their own game. Not the meta.

I would use harsher, simpler and more accurate terms to describe this group of players but i'm not sure if those are against the terms. Ever since i started playing this game, i have seen the same weak, self entitled players whining about how other people are better than them. I thought i'll post a riposte to their whining.

Every one of us have the same options to play whatever you think is the best. Why some people deliberately choose to play a bad build or playstyle and then whine that it is bad is beyond me.

It's like in World of warcraft, knowing that a build is bad and deliberately choosing that build. Or knowing that a 200 dps weapon is inferior to a 400 dps weapon and picking the 200 dps weapon because it's shinier. Or in real life, you need to destroy a wall and were given the option of choosing a sledgehammer or a penknife and choosing the penknife, then whining that the penknife isn't getting the job done as well as your friend who took the sledgehammer.

As to the comment from low skilled players saying that "meta tryhards" are not having fun, i have this to say:

Fun is subjective. Playing sub optimal builds is fun to you. Not so to me. I like playing optimal builds. I like steamrolling my enemies. And so far, i'm having a lot of fun doing just that.

Besides, if you're having so much fun using crappy builds, why are you crying and whining on the forums about how "meta tryhards" are steamrolling you? Or are you afraid that if you actually played the "meta" AND still played crappily, you wouldn't have an excuse to protect your already bruised ego? Your ego would be utterly destroyed beyond recognition.

When you say that you hate meta and that the current meta is destroying the game, what you're essentially saying is not so much that you hate meta. It's more of: I don't like the CURRENT meta and i want MY BUILD (which happens to be bad currently) to be the meta.

Guess what? If YOUR BUILD and playstyle became the new meta, I would take that build and steamroll you with it anyway.

The meta changes constantly. When it was poptarting, i used poptart builds and weapons and steamrolled with it. Now it's even easier, laser vomit. So i use laser vomit and steamroll with it. The meta changes and you must change along with it or be food for the steamrollers. This is the way of life.

Besides, even if you used the meta, you'll probably still be food. Given the same build/mech, some players are just flat out better than others. Given the same weapons, some soldiers are marksmen and some are cannon fodder. Given equal opportunities and equal tools, some people get farther ahead in life than others.

These are the hard truths of life.

Who you mad at? Almost no one plays oceanic...

[Tahribator]

I don't get this type of thinking myself. MWO is a game that is all about customization and choice. We have tens of weapons and equipment, hundreds of 'Mechs and an advanced 'Mechlab to fiddle with them. The type of "gamestyle" you're advocating for ignores this customization and experimentation aspect. According to you, we must always play to win and focus on min-maxing. Playing for win is alright, I have some friends who rarely go into 'Mechlab and stick to a handful of premade 'Mechs after all. Some people get their kicks out of just winning, no matter how.

BUT, imposing this on others is a big no-no. Some people also like winning, but they also want to enjoy the customization aspect and the rich gameplay it provides. In order for that to happen, we must have some kind of balance between 'Mechs and weapon systems. That is why people "complain" when a single weapon system becomes too dominant (lasers since the Clans came out). They want more variety because that's how they have fun.

Keep in mind that selling content is PGI's business model and keeping the game balanced is in their interest too. Unlike Wargaming which uses a tiered structure for their content (which forces you to play ****** stuff in order to get to the good stuff, and balance is only secondary), PGI chose to treat every 'Mech in this game as equal. You are free to buy anything at any time. You can get the "good stuff" right now. When a "meta" settles and a certain group of 'Mechs become dominant, they lose revenue. Why would people (especially people like you) bother with a Commando and its hero TDK, when there's Arctic Cheetah they can freely choose to buy? Why would people bother with upcoming stuff when they have the all they ever need to win right now?

It's OK that you enjoy winning by all means, but demanding everyone to do the same is absurd.

[Dino Might]

He's not saying we MUST do anything of the sort. He is stating what he likes, and he is stating that he thinks anyone not in that mindset is ruining the game, BUT he is not saying that we have to change. His response is reactionary and childish, but it's not a demand, at least how I read it.

I simply think it's built on questionable motives and a foundational lack of empathy (i.e., emotional intelligence). I think his motives and conclusions are counter to the fulfillment of true human desires, but that's not uncommon. All of us, at some point or another, search for fulfillment in the wrong places in the wrong way. That's my opinion. It's not a demand that he change his ways. It's just a recommendation.

[DAYLEET]

El Bandito, on 29 October 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

I'll take the current meta over the 2013 poptart meta any given day. Boy it sucked so much back then, when it was "Highlanders/3Ds/Victors or GTFO". It coincided with the development freeze of MWO, which had resulted in a huge player drop. So yeah, not all metas are bad but some are seriously detrimental to the game's health itself.

Agreed, but let's not stop trying to improve the game because of that fact. The game need better balancing.

I couldnt make sense of OP rambling. It's not all going in the same direction and the points certainly didnt work together, i smell a child meltdown.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 30 October 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Well... there are limitations to non-meta builds. That's why they aren't "meta." And you need to work harder to use them... and most are purely situational with drawbacks that meta users don't have to deal with. But you can still do well in them. Just don't expect to pull of 1k damage drops with ease or at all--at least, not often.

This is true.

But there was a time when it was considered REAL skill, to take something suboptimal, and still dominate in it. It's why I can respect Jman5, easily. He takes a mech that is completely verbotten in Complandia, and excels in it.

It's not that one of course, can't be uber skilled and use Meta. It's just that the most elite of the elite, don't NEED to.

But gaming today (and society in general) devolved into the path of least resistance, lemming follow the leader thinking.

Everybody (at least all the Leets) is stipping to bare minimum graphics and stripping filters, particles, etc, and running the most vanilla Metamech....why shouldn't I?

Hey, if it's fun for you, then you should do just so,

But get off your MetaTryhard Highhorse (Not you, but the Denizens of Mt Tryhard, in general) in assuming just because other's don't care to follow your lead, they are somehow second rate players and citizens.

I've played against pretty much all of them. Aside form a handful like Heimdelight and Proton (there are others, mind you), I ain't generally been too impressed when they don't have 3-11 other Leet Tryhard Bullyboys to watch their back.

Of course, they will argue that "TRVESKILL" can only be seen in Group Queue.... which translates to "I don't do well in the chaos of PUGlandia, and need every possible variable quantified and controlled to excel".

Will this piss off a few people, and start the usual howls of denial?

Sure.

And guess what? I could not care less.

[Dino Might]

How many videos of Bob Ross painting on TV absolutely amaze us? The guy is talented, of course. But then we see a video of a blind man, painting by feel, and the incredible work that he does completely floors us. It's incredible. That's not to say the end result of a Bob Ross work is worse (heck, it might be much better in some cases), but the tools he had to work with were more formidable than those of the blind man. We are more impressed with the blind man because of the extra challenge he had in creating that art.

We look at people like this with complete awe:


Plenty of people race motorcycles as fast or faster than that guy, but that guy is one of the all-time greats, because of the limitations he has to overcome to compete at the same level as others. He is amazing not just because he wins, but because he wins with one arm and one leg when his competitors have two. He is still amazing when he gets 2nd or 3rd or last. Just gridding up to race with one arm and one leg is ****ing INCREDIBLE.

ETA: at the end of the day, this is a game, and in no way is as important as anything in real life. So I really don't care all that much about tryhard/nontryhard BS, but my point in all of this has been that the motivations that drive us and the way we approach obstacles, which ones we take on, which ones we avoid...those are significant aspects of our lives that filter down into the trivial stuff like our online games. Whether we care enough to argue about it here, I'm not concerned with, but DON'T take the same "path of least resistance" attitude and make it your staple in the real world. Please don't do that, because you're wasting your potential.

Call me preachy if you wish, but this advice I give to myself on a daily basis, and I fail at meeting it on a daily basis, and I get up and try again, on a daily basis.

Edited by Dino Might, 30 October 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[Kira Onime]

FupDup, on 30 October 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

-snip-

[ShinVector]

Tahribator, on 30 October 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

I don't get this type of thinking myself. MWO is a game that is all about customization and choice.

I get it a little bit...

Have come across illogical Atlas pilots arguing that a light mech should NOT be allowed to kill a Atlas just because...
Some book says an Atlas can take on a company of Lights and leave the battle slightly damage with all the Lights dead...
Or something like that.. These people exists...

Edit...

Or one time there was this Oceanic group... That threaten to 'REPORT' me for tapping on JumpJets when I was in a Jenner... Apparently to them... I was using an 'Exploit'....

Again... These people exist...

Edited by ShinVector, 30 October 2015 - 08:35 AM.

[Davers]

The only thing I would disagree with with the OP is this: The meta doesn't change all the time. It changes about once a year, after some big nerf or balance pass. If the meta really was "constantly shifting" I don't think people would complain about it as much.

[DaZur]

Electing to play counter meta is probably the most sound decision a player could make if their endgame is personal enjoyment over play domination...

Not everyone is driven by the "win at all costs" mentality... Just say'n.

Edited by DaZur, 30 October 2015 - 08:37 AM.

[LordBraxton]

I can't believe that many people liked the OP's post. This is one of the worst posts I've seen on here. This game is dying because of minimal progress and a terribly balanced meta that has lasted for almost 2 years. OP's response is, 'tough it out MechWarrior!.' What a joke. RIP MWO

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 October 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

This is true.

But there was a time when it was considered REAL skill, to take something suboptimal, and still dominate in it. It's why I can respect Jman5

Jman5 is a MWO hero, as far as I'm concerned. I've got great respect for anyone that puts up with low-tier 'mechs and makes them work as well as he does. That takes guts, determination, dedication and... skill.

[adamts01]

Laser boats need a nerf. I hate the argument "there'll always be a new meta so shut up and deal with it." of course there will be a new meta. But hopefully the new meta won't be absolutely all we see. When 20/24 mechs in a match are completely loaded with the same weapon type in a game as customizable as this, while the other 4 are harassed for bringing "crap builds", that's a huge balance problem. I don't know how far away this next balance patch is but it can't come soon enough.

[C E Dwyer]

OP sounds like a tryhard that is having his favourite meta changed, and becoming the person he is talking about, your over blown ego is clear from your location.

I have advice

Time to grown up and stop being the snotty kid, because mummy let you have your own way all the time.

[Mister Blastman]

adamts01, on 30 October 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

Laser boats need a nerf. I hate the argument "there'll always be a new meta so shut up and deal with it." of course there will be a new meta. But hopefully the new meta won't be absolutely all we see. When 20/24 mechs in a match are completely loaded with the same weapon type in a game as customizable as this, while the other 4 are harassed for bringing "crap builds", that's a huge balance problem. I don't know how far away this next balance patch is but it can't come soon enough.

Something needs to be done for sure. A few of us want perfect variety--where all three of the weapon triad are useful...

a. Missiles (prefer SRMs)
b. Autocannons/Gauss
c. Energy (BOTH lasers and PPCs)

If we can hit that target, the game will be in a fantastic state. But in all the MechWarrior games that I have played, we have never hit it. Mechwarrior 2 came somewhat close with Lasers/Missiles but ballistics were debatable. MechWarrior 3 had the unholy Laser Strider/Dire Whale Ultra Autocannon combo and the fourth installment was a balance disaster when it came out once folks figured out the power of large lasers. I did manage to make an Argus work in Mech 4. But it was tough as balls.

I'd love to see the trinity of weapons be equal and each as viable as the next. And the only way we can get there is through tweaking. But the tweaking should not and cannot be annual. The tweaking needs to be bi-weekly or monthly until it gets there. The tweaking demands dedication from PGI to make it happen. It means the meta will shift constantly and there will be nothing certain. But this is what it takes.

Are we prepared to do this? Is PGI?

Cathy, on 30 October 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

OP sounds like a tryhard

Can we quit with the "tryhard" insults? It does nothing constructive and does not help improve the state of this game. It is becoming trite.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 October 2015 - 08:41 AM.