67 replies to this topic

[FlipOver]

Until this year, I never even knew about what TTK meant.

Something happened along the way that seems TTK is getting too short (low) for us to still feel we are using a Battle Machine.

I'm not going to say this mech or that one feels weak or that other one feels too strong. This isn't actually about the mech's hitboxes but about the time it takes to destroy tons of mechs.

For nostalgia's sake (and I challenge you all to find some and watch them too), I've watched some old (Beta) videos of this game and it had some really awesome battles. Yeah, you were hit with LRMs, SSRMs, all sorts of weapons including lasers and the mech would still be able to either fight back or find cover.

Now, the game is starting to look more and more like a kind of CoD with Mechs.

I don't know if PGI thinks this is the right direction to go before Steam, or if it is just like they envision this game to be, but the shorter the TTK, the less epic battles we are going to get.
With that, it will come to a point where the only thing MW:O will have that resembles with the MW lore will be the mechs themselves, nothing else.

If that time comes, it will surely be the end for a lot of people.

Should o shouldn't PGI focus on getting TTK to go up?

[Mudhutwarrior]

Yes. But it isn't going to happen. Whomever is leading this mess has been leaning into a COD version of MWO for a long time.

It's not longer a thinking mans game but a Tryhard full on exploit extravaganza.

Soon those same players will be here telling you to leave the game to them. Thing is most of us are if we haven't already.

[El Bandito]

PGI could easily increase TTK by removing consumables and weapon modules. What are the chances of that happening, though?

Edited by El Bandito, 04 November 2015 - 08:22 PM.

[Brollocks]

It's my main gripe with the game. If I had my way I'd cut all damage by 75%, keeping it hidden server side so no one would notice except much longer battles. This would allow clan mechs to stay at their full power, because it would come down to pilot aim and skill as much as anything, and heat would play a much larger part, giving the I.S a little edge being that their weapons aren't quite as hot.

[Queen of England]

Perhaps it's different at higher tiers, but at tier 3 TTK seems fine. I never really die without a chance to respond unless I make an error so serious I deserve it. I worry that increasing TTK will make deathballing more mandatory, since you'll increasingly need combined fire from multiple mechs to get any kills.

[Escef]

TTK is fine. It's only really short if someone got lucky (like a twin AC20 headshot), you seriously underarmored your mech, or you turned a corner and got focused down by 4 or 5 enemy mechs.

People seem to forget (or weren't around for) the era of six PPC Stalkers, before ghost heat. Can your mech tank 60 damage to one hit location? If not, you have problems. (The general timidness of the player base didn't help, either. He fires once and shuts down, perfect time to rush him, but instead people hang back and hide because they're afraid of being the next one down, not realizing that they're wasting a perfect opportunity to deal with the problem.) The DireStar would cause the same problems if not for ghost heat (it can only fire those 11 ERPPCs twice before overheat makes them pop like a balloon).

[Nightmare1]

They should increase armor values for the Mechs again. That would simultaneously improve the overall hitpoints while pulling tonnage away from weapons, Heat Sinks, and ammo. That alone would have a big impact on TTK.

You also have to remember that TTK has gone down partly due to the fact that we now have 12-mans that have refined the art of focus firing. In a solo match between two equal Mechs and pilots, TTK doesn't seem all that bad. In a 12-man setting, TTK seems to be insta-death because you get hit from five or six different directions. While that's frustrating, it's not entirely without Lore precedent with respect to the novels.

You also have overquirked Mechs now in an attempt to compensate for chassis shortcomings.

It will be interesting to see what the rebalance brings. Frankly, I think we'll see TTK go up give some of the changes.

[Bobzilla]

It's the evolution of tactics in this game. TTK was the same or longer, just most mechs are pretty much optimized to fire at a common range with pinpoint. So it was possible to kill a mech faster, but that fast kill happened less. For example, you'd never really get focused by a splat cat and six ppc stalker at the same time unless you did something really bad.

In the attempt to remove load outs that where specialized, with great weakness, which needed tactics (for and against) they made the game a death ball focus twitch shooter, eliminating any real depth or verity to fights.

So it's a sometimes shorter TTK vs an overall average shorter TTK. The only proof I have is matches are way shorter now then they where.

[Karl Streiger]

Well i think those SplashCats or HexStalker would have been a problem when there would have been 12 vs 12 already
but anyhow there were ways to kill them - and i have seen dozens of guys trying to run a splash cat but for every successful strike they got obliterated on sight in three other occasions.

[FupDup]

I wouldn't mind a small TTK increase of, to put an entirely arbitrary number on it, about 10-15%, whateves. I think it was about right before that HSR bone change, but after that it went down a bit (even for my Executioner, lol).


However, I think that comparisons to average infantry shooters like Call of Duty couldn't be more inaccurate. I'm actually playing Halo 5 right now, and I can assure you that players die MUCH faster in that game than in MWO. MWO's mech are (appropriately) far more durable than characters in "mainstream" shooters. It's valid to ask for them to be even more tougher, but that doesn't mean that we aren't already tougher.

[Karl Streiger]

FupDup, on 03 November 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

However, I think that comparisons to average infantry shooters like Call of Duty couldn't be more inaccurate. I'm actually playing Halo 5 right now, and I can assure you that players die MUCH faster in that game than in MWO. MWO's mech are (appropriately) far more durable than characters in "mainstream" shooters. It's valid to ask for them to be even more tougher, but that doesn't mean that we aren't already tougher.

Well i think we have a problem with the "comparison" of mainstream shooters and MWO.
In most mainstream shooters your play a soldier that should avoid of being hit at all - BattleMechs on the other side - they should be hit. And they should take damage - the picture of a Mech cowering behind a wall or even to think about suppression of BattleMechs is complete alien.

Hey it is ok that you go for cover to avoid unnecessary hits - but when its time to get hurt a Mech should soak up much more damage, than they do now.

Ok my Zeus with its armor quirks and great hitboxes can soak several hits - even when 4 Mechs are shooting at me - but this is a "special case" - same amount of incomming fire would have killed my Atlas twice

[PurpleNinja]

High alphas and poor heat design.

From my top ten list to improve MWO:
- 3025 Stock Game Mode (Very Unlikely to Happen)
- Redesigned Heat Mechanic (May Happen, But In a Bad Way)

[Mechteric]

El Bandito, on 03 November 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

PGI could easily increase TTK by removing consumables. What are the chances of that happening, though?

Don't think it would help honestly. Coolant is a one trick pony (ok, two). As for arty/airstrike, they just need to be modified to where its not just press a button and the smoke beacon instantly teleports to the location you pointed at. My opinion is that it should be like a highly visible TAG laser target that you must keep on the spot for several seconds until the strike hits.

Other than that, I think the weapons themselves mixed with the current heat system are what cause 99% of the ttk issues.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 November 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[Thuriel]

El Bandito, on 03 November 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

PGI could easily increase TTK by removing consumables. What are the chances of that happening, though?

Or make it so only mechs equipped with a specific gear (command console maybe?) could use it

[1Grimbane]

TKK isn't bad just use cover, you may find it helpful.......

[VanguardMk1]

Keep in mind that before some major fixes, hitreg was wonky and ate a lot of damage. That gave people the feeling of being way tankier than they actually were. With the coming Laser max range nerf, I think we'll see a lot more brawling. I always got the feeling that I lived longer in a full brawl than with poking in a certain area, where 1 alpha could really mess you up in 1 location. Doubling armor would work, but it really isn't a favorite choice of mine just because it works better with people whose aim isn't good. Players with great aim would only need 1-2 more shots to shoot off a component, so in competitive matches it would have a diminished effect.

btw a certain Jagermech with 2xLRM + 2xSRM + 2xML did seem to have a low TTK

[Almond Brown]

To increase your own TTK, knowing the game mechanics can go along way. This not a slight to anyone but I have spectated from many Mechs who got killed by sitting around and doing nothing.

An example: Mech A encounters Mechs B, they spar. Mech A shoots 2 AC10's at Mech B and hits, Mech B retreats to cover for longer than Mech A's CD on those 2 AC10, then sticks his head out again only to take a 2nd 20 point shot to the face. Rinse and repeat not understanding that after initial volley was fired, that Mech A will need to reload and that it the time to strike again, based on load-out of course, but NO, hide, count to 3 then move out... (doh!) Know the game and your TTD will decrease exponentially...

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 November 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[627]

highest alpha in early beta was around 40, AC40 jager/boomcat or the 4xPPC stalker. The 6 PPC stalker had some forum fame, but was never a real thread.

Even in the poptart days we had smaller alphas, usually 30-35.

These days we have laser vomits with gauss that peak near 70-80 and can get out at least 2 alphas before overheating.

So yes, TTK is lower then beta times. A lot. Not only the bigger alpha strikes, 12vs12 is another factor for this.

so what to do?

Doubling armor would even more widen the gap between light and assault mechs, so that should be out.

Nerfing the damage across the board is the way to go, but there are different ways to do this. A better heat mechanic that prevents high alphas would be nice, longer cooldowns can help and in the end just reducing the damage numbers.

[Escef]

627, on 03 November 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

highest alpha in early beta was around 40, AC40 jager/boomcat or the 4xPPC stalker.

Um, yeah, a "Big Papa"-style Atlas D-DC has an alpha of almost 70.

EDIT: And a Stalker with 4xASRM6 and 6xML has, in addition to some really rough heat issues (29% heat efficiency according to Smurfy with 18 double sinks), an Alpha of over 80.

Edited by Escef, 03 November 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Tool Box]

Muddy Funster, on 03 November 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

It's my main gripe with the game. If I had my way I'd cut all damage by 75%, keeping it hidden server side so no one would notice except much longer battles. This would allow clan mechs to stay at their full power, because it would come down to pilot aim and skill as much as anything, and heat would play a much larger part, giving the I.S a little edge being that their weapons aren't quite as hot.

Now that's a PBE I would like to play on. All damage @ 25% effectiveness. It would take a lot more than 2xgauss, 2lpl, and 4erml's to kill someones ct. In my experience that usually is enough to core if not outright kill most mechs in the current state of the game.

Edited by Tool Box, 03 November 2015 - 11:13 AM.