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Why Not Use The Clan-Er Ppc Mechanism To "fix" Pin-Point Convergence


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#61 Almond Brown

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 07:07 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 08 November 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

I don't see anyone here posting anything their own opinion of what facts are. The point he was making is that this variation of the game has strayed far from both original design and intent, potentially of the videogame series as well.


LOL! Yup, they should have just left in the "Dice Roll" for hit location. MWO would be way more funner if "MISS" came up on your screen 45% of the times you fired your weapons for that sure Kill shot. LOL!

Edited by Almond Brown, 09 November 2015 - 07:08 AM.


#62 Tombstoner

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 07:42 AM

View Postpwnface, on 09 November 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

People cried about poptarting and PPFLD, now people are crying about laser vomit. I dream of a MWO where there isn't such a distinct advantage for one particular style over another and I'm pretty sure other competitive minded players wish for the same.

The only way to break up the synergy is to add a second factor describing how movement and number of linked weapons interact with targeting. That way you can tune play styles against one another. Pop tarting should be a viable choice.Nerfing JJ was a mistake.

#63 Mister Blastman

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 07:49 AM

View PostTombstoner, on 09 November 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

The only way to break up the synergy is to add a second factor describing how movement and number of linked weapons interact with targeting. That way you can tune play styles against one another. Pop tarting should be a viable choice.Nerfing JJ was a mistake.


You can sort of pop tart now. The biggest problem with it isn't the jets as much as it is the heat applied from jetting. That nukes poptart dps.

I would like all playstyles useful and none to dominate another. But to do this, they have to tweak things they have dared not touch up to this point...

#64 Tombstoner

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 07:49 AM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 09 November 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:


LOL! Yup, they should have just left in the "Dice Roll" for hit location. MWO would be way more funner if "MISS" came up on your screen 45% of the times you fired your weapons for that sure Kill shot. LOL!

No they should have buffed each hit location a % based on the change in hit frequency/distribution for evey mech design. This is cut and past development at its worst. PGI is its own worst enemy...

Finish the TT to FPS port and see where the game stands....

#65 Mister Blastman

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 07:51 AM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 09 November 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:


Interesting to Test, but like ALL other changes folks ***** about, when that Test change is implemented NO ONE shows to Test and just continue to *****. The PTS is/was empty this weekend, yet many new changes were in play, least of which was 4V4 (Lance) battles. Yup, Lance battles were online on the PTS. To bad SFA folks showed up... :(


Everyone wants to complain but nobody wants to help fix. No wonder nothing useful is happening (aside from typical PGI balancing internal issues).

Edited by Mister Blastman, 09 November 2015 - 07:52 AM.


#66 Mystere

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 09:17 AM

View Postpwnface, on 09 November 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

People cried about poptarting and PPFLD, now people are crying about laser vomit. I dream of a MWO where there isn't such a distinct advantage for one particular style over another and I'm pretty sure other competitive minded players wish for the same.


Just imagine what we could possibly have now if PGI had not decided to nerf the jumpers and other stuff. That's the problem when forcing balance while major parts of the game are still missing just to cater to the loud public crying.

#67 Mystere

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 09:27 AM

View PostHotthedd, on 09 November 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

You should hear some of the terms and pronunciations we have for lots of things, then.
We call a can of Pepsi a "Coke".


I really hated it when you specifically asked a waiter for Coke and they gave you a Pepsi.

But now that I am a bit older, any waiter who gives me anything other than the Pouilly-Fuissé I asked for is liable to look for new employment.

#68 Mystere

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 09:40 AM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 09 November 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

Interesting to Test, but like ALL other changes folks ***** about, when that Test change is implemented NO ONE shows to Test and just continue to *****. The PTS is/was empty this weekend, yet many new changes were in play, least of which was 4V4 (Lance) battles. Yup, Lance battles were online on the PTS. To bad SFA folks showed up... :(


Hold on a second! Wasn't 4v4 just a feature added to PTS3 to facilitate testing? I don't recall it being intended for live use.

#69 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 10:05 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 09 November 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:


No, and don't attempt to put asinine words in my mouth.
.


Thank you. Even you can admit that line of thinking was going to an asinine place. Let's move on from denigrating teamwork and winning.


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And that one second, depending on positioning and skill of that target might be all the difference for that person. Arguing that because the length of increase in the TTK in an extreme outlier situation is relatively insignificant does not negate the principle as a whole.


Sure, its an outlier that only happens everyday, and more often to people who blame the last step in the kill chain for their loss.

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How many thousands of dollars are you willing to pay me to touch such a lothesome game? I don't play those games because I loathe those types of games. The last one I enjoyed or played regularly was Quake.


Well, the answer was less than 0.5. Quake was a little s!over on twitch reflexes, but still much faster than a second. MWO is not in the same neighborhood.


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If a Timby would die in that scenario, it wouldn't be used because that thing is so broken and we all know that Tier 1 don't generally use mechs that aren't broken or meta. Often because they have no choice. Others because they cannot bear losing. I've had it happen in Orions fully armored through the front ST and no, there wasn't an ammo explosion.


Because you made significant mistakes, as a Timby is not more armor than other 75 ton heavies, and its torsos are harder to shield.


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False comparison and conclusion. You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said. Since I have a classical musical background I've been privileged to work with child prodigies, directors and composers who have knighthoods for their skill and achievements. This gives me a real life understanding of what potential versus actualized skill is.


So you are saying that every 40 or 50 year old playing MWO have spent decades longer seriously practicing and learning the game? That'd be a real trick.

What I see is people with positive pro-learning attitudes winning at mwo no matter what age, and people with closed minds and prelocked misconceptions blaming game mechanisms for their loss and whining about others winning.


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You are trying to compare unequal potential in order to discredit the point. I am saying that a 15 year old will not have the same skill set as a 40 year old if both started at age 13. Experience is the superior tutor. Now if you have both a 15 year old and a 40 year old starting at the same point of time, the 15 year old, given equal skill will constantly outperform the 40 year old when it comes down to it because hand eye coordination is higher thanks to youth.


That'd be a great argument, if MWO has been around for 35 years or if the people complaining are even close to having the same amount of skill and -assimilated- experience as the target group of their complaints.

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You know, your statement reminds me of how I thought the world worked at age 18. I truly believed that I knew everything I needed to know and that when I turned 21 I would be equal in intellect and in social stature as well to all adults.


Dont worry you're still not.

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I was so quick to be offended when my words or desires did not carry any weight because I did not have enough life experience to know how naive they really were.


And now here you are on mwo and the story repeats itself.

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How little I knew, and it took 3 years of working in the real world to really get that foolish heart and ego kicked out of me and learn that wisdom is not intellect and stature cannot be earned with egotism.


But apparently the same bravado and egotism is ok when it gets directed towards saying how fail instead of how you win?

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Ultimately, a 15 year old musician does not have the same skills or wisdom or perspective as a 40 year old musician. How gifted they are only determines their potential over time. Life is not a zero sum game and at 15, you haven't really even begun to learn. But we're not comparing someone at 40 who can't carry a tune in a bucket versus a child prodigy. We're comparing peers.


And yet here you are not even having begun to learn the game, but still trying to tell us how it -must- be improved.

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Yes, and never again. This is as close to twitch as I will come. When I was 15, the twitchiest game around was the original Star Wars and Robotron. I cut my teeth on the original Wolfenstein 3d on a 486 33Mhz PC. I played Halo 1 once in a while when visiting a friends house, but that and Quake were the last ones I played. It's a chapter of my gaming life I closed. They aren't intelligent enough, no matter how fantastic they may look. Most of them are b grade movies in which you move the protagonist and if I'm going to be playing the game, I want something more than what 99% of those games can offer.


So you mean you don't actually know what a modern twitch game is like when you play against other people?

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Regardless, the fact that I don't play nor enjoy twitch games does not invalidate any of my points. I also know how to read market research and know what my friends children are playing... the ones who will let their children play those games. A good example right there of my age providing me skills a probably younger man hasn't gained yet... Unless you're in your late 40s.


If you want to play -this- very none twitch game better and in the process gain some actual wisdom about the world, I suggest you read on this:

https://en.m.wikiped.../wiki/OODA_loop

And meditate on where you actually lost most of your games. There are some valid reasons to ameliorate damage concentration for newer MWO players, but until you become more respectful of the population of players who have developed considerable skills to win at this game you will continue to lose half the playerbase with words that presume more wisdom that justified.

#70 Kjudoon

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 03:10 PM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 09 November 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:


LOL! Yup, they should have just left in the "Dice Roll" for hit location. MWO would be way more funner if "MISS" came up on your screen 45% of the times you fired your weapons for that sure Kill shot. LOL!

I've never said that either. 45% is an awefully high number. That's better than my LRM accuracy currently so, I'm sure a better solution could be had than that.

#71 Kjudoon

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 03:41 PM

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Thank you. Even you can admit that line of thinking was going to an asinine place. Let's move on from denigrating teamwork and winning.


I didn't denegrate or deify it. I put it in it's proper context which is far beneath what some people think it is but it is still important.


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Sure, its an outlier that only happens everyday, and more often to people who blame the last step in the kill chain for their loss.


Then that's on the individual. Nothing more.


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Because you made significant mistakes, as a Timby is not more armor than other 75 ton heavies, and its torsos are harder to shield.

If that were true, then the Orion would be the most popular heavy of the inner sphere. It is not, and it's not all just hardpoints.


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So you are saying that every 40 or 50 year old playing MWO have spent decades longer seriously practicing and learning the game? That'd be a real trick.

What I see is people with positive pro-learning attitudes winning at mwo no matter what age, and people with closed minds and prelocked misconceptions blaming game mechanisms for their loss and whining about others winning.

That'd be a great argument, if MWO has been around for 35 years or if the people complaining are even close to having the same amount of skill and -assimilated- experience as the target group of their complaints.

Dont worry you're still not.

And now here you are on mwo and the story repeats itself.

But apparently the same bravado and egotism is ok when it gets directed towards saying how fail instead of how you win?


Boy, you really are just as bad as I was. And if you are my age, you really haven't learned. Again, you are either deliberately misinterpreting or unable to comprehend my point because you're locked in your own paradigm.

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And yet here you are not even having begun to learn the game, but still trying to tell us how it -must- be improved.


Yes because ability does not exclude someone's ability to understand how something works. A mechanic doesn't have to win the Winston Cup to know how to fix a race car. An football coach does not have to be one who can actually play still or one who had played. It CAN help, but it isn't always a help. Many of some of the best players of the game have made horrible coaches, Bart Starr and Mike Singletary are two examples while some of the best coaches in the game never played beyond a high school or local college level.

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I've played this game just about as long as you have. I just play it differently.

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So you mean you don't actually know what a modern twitch game is like when you play against other people?


Just because I won't play it doesn't mean I don't know what it's like. Lots of gameplay video out there that people put up.


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If you want to play -this- very none twitch game better and in the process gain some actual wisdom about the world, I suggest you read on this:

https://en.m.wikiped.../wiki/OODA_loop

And meditate on where you actually lost most of your games. There are some valid reasons to ameliorate damage concentration for newer MWO players, but until you become more respectful of the population of players who have developed considerable skills to win at this game you will continue to lose half the playerbase with words that presume more wisdom that justified.

And here is where you really don't get it. I am very familiar with the OODA loop concept. I also know that multiple people can do the exact same thing on the exact same subject and come up with completely different conclusions and some or all can be valid.

Also, the Hemingway defense (You must do to be able to talk about it) is a logical fallacy. Therefore, your point that someone must succeed in a broken system to be a critic able to say it's broken is not the qualifier. In fact, lack of success is part of the proof that it IS broken more than success. I've done both and I am still qualified enough to understand and comment and advise.

As for my wisdom, I would suggest you hold up a mirror to your own. You do not see me as humble or wise enough and let's be honest, you aren't either.

#72 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 04:05 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 09 November 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:


I didn't denegrate or deify it. I put it in it's proper context which is far beneath what some people think it is but it is still important.


Then you don't understand it.

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Blah blah blah blah....

Yes because ability does not exclude someone's ability to understand how something works. A mechanic doesn't have to win the Winston Cup to know how to fix a race car. An football coach does not have to be one who can actually play still or one who had played. It CAN help, but it isn't always a help. Many of some of the best players of the game have made horrible coaches, Bart Starr and Mike Singletary are two examples while some of the best coaches in the game never played beyond a high school or local college level.

Blah blah blah.....


This is really the essence of your argument isn't it? "I can't do it but I understand it and know better how to change it than you do."

Ah the creed of dilettantes every where, convincing to no one of actual knowledge.

A mechanic can't drive a race car but he sure can fix a race car, and he knows to listen to the drivers when the driver tells him: I need the race car to do X, Y, and Z. He does his job, knows when to listen to someone else when they tell them about their job.

If a race car mechanic told the driver to STFU, he's going to set up the car in Y and Z way because he knows how it works, guess what, that mechanic is out of a job.

Same with a football coach. A coach does his thing and knows when to listen. He doesn't tell the player: hey, throwing the ball takes no skill or, you moron, all you do just just push up against another guy. He understands and respects that those are skills he doesn't have, and then he goes out and demonstrates that understanding by winning games.

At the end of that he earns the right to discuss changes to the league rules, etc. If some guy who doesn't win games comes in off the street and try to start telling the league what to do, guess what the league will say to him?

"What I cannot create, I do not understand." - Richard Feynmen

If you cannot create victory, how do you claim to understand it? If you haven't utilized even half the skills needed to play a game, how do you propose to optimize it?

Some gain wisdom with age, others only grow in folly, and yet others gain wisdom in somethings, but then encounter something new and fall back to their foolish habits all over again. Which one are you?

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 09 November 2015 - 04:15 PM.


#73 wanderer

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 05:17 PM

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Pop tarting should be a viable choice.Nerfing JJ was a mistake.


Half-right. 'Mechs in midair are supposed to be tremendously inaccurate, but turning jump jets into hoverjets was the wrong fix.

Posted Image

This is not a stable, accurate firing platform. Your crosshairs should be given the ol' shake regardless of whether you have the jets on or off as long as you aren't touching the ground. (In TT, it's a massive +3 penalty firing even DURING a turn you jump, never mind midair- which is even less accurate.)

JJs need their mobility restored (which is what they're meant for) and weapons fire needs to suffer if a 'Mech happens to be off the ground, thrust or no thrust being applied (as it should be, but isn't.).

#74 Khobai

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 06:11 PM

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JJs need their mobility restored


then why would anyone ever use a mech without jumpjets?

I always hear people say jumpjets need their mobility restored. But no one ever wants to talk about how to balance it. What huge downside are you going to give mechs with jumpjets? Because the tonnage cost alone for jumpjets is pretty trivial and not enough to balance out significantly stronger jumpjets.

#75 Kjudoon

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 06:18 PM

Sory jiggly but i am done talking to you since you neither respect or listen to outside points of view and are engaging in the Texas sharpshooter logical fallacy. I am guessing your youth is preventing you from seeing it so at least you will grow out of it.

There is no communication or learning going on in this dialogue so i will end it.

#76 CuriousCabbitBlue

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 06:33 PM

http://mwomercs.com/...12#entry4815612

thats interesting idea for lasers, not 100 percent but I like the idea



-----reflective armor is another thing--- http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor



------harden armor ----- http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor

( just decrease movement speed an arm movement an torso twist and jumpjets)

------( lol maybe not ) stealth armor --- http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor

(maybe) modular armor----http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Modular_Armor

(same as harden armor)

#77 wanderer

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 07:14 PM

View PostKhobai, on 09 November 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:


then why would anyone ever use a mech without jumpjets?


You have other uses for the tonnage- a better engine, heat sinks, ammo, etc. etc. MWO's JJ system is another case of where things haven't been done properly, too- it's an irregular system that ignores construction rules. Considering no possible chassis restrictions above and beyond what MWO might establish, a 'Mech shouldn't be packing more JJs than engine rating/tonnage. That SPD-5V should have a maximum of 9 jets (285 max engine/30 = rounds down to 9) and should only be able to fit one jet per 30 engine rating, so if it's not at least packing a 270 engine, not even that. They've also utterly butchered the movement model for jets in the process of everything else. Like a lot of things in MWO, not even trying on understanding the original construction rules leads to ugly kludge results.

Quote

I always hear people say jumpjets need their mobility restored. But no one ever wants to talk about how to balance it. What huge downside are you going to give mechs with jumpjets? Because the tonnage cost alone for jumpjets is pretty trivial and not enough to balance out significantly stronger jumpjets.


Heat generation? Targeting issues? There's plenty in there to work with if we standardized how jets function rather than weird Paul-math calculations that have precious little to do with anything the original game came from. Instead, we get flying Cicadas and derping Highlanders in confusing array.

View PostCuriousCabbitBlue, on 09 November 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:


------harden armor ----- http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor

( just decrease movement speed an arm movement an torso twist and jumpjets)



This right here would effectively allow another doubling of armor at the cost of a more awkward to control 'Mech, is timeline-appropriate, and IMHO also worth testing out.

Edited by wanderer, 09 November 2015 - 07:17 PM.


#78 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 08:23 PM

View Postwanderer, on 09 November 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Half-right. 'Mechs in midair are supposed to be tremendously inaccurate, but turning jump jets into hoverjets was the wrong fix.

Posted Image

This is not a stable, accurate firing platform. Your crosshairs should be given the ol' shake regardless of whether you have the jets on or off as long as you aren't touching the ground. (In TT, it's a massive +3 penalty firing even DURING a turn you jump, never mind midair- which is even less accurate.)

JJs need their mobility restored (which is what they're meant for) and weapons fire needs to suffer if a 'Mech happens to be off the ground, thrust or no thrust being applied (as it should be, but isn't.).


Mechs in free-fall should be perfectly stable.

#79 wanderer

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 09:23 PM

View PostJigglyMoobs, on 09 November 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:


Mechs in free-fall should be perfectly stable.


A 'Mech in mid-jump isn't a stable thing at all- minus corrective thrust, they quickly start to tumble. Without bracing, weapon recoil or taking hits is basically an exercise in "which part do I land on, oh gawd I hope it's not my head". It's a brick. With rockets strapped to it. The rockets (with help from the gyro) are what maintain an upright and stable (relatively) position.

Pull it off it's columns of thrust and robot fall down go boom. For an excellent example of this, just go to YouTube and look up some folks learning to use a JetLev.

Then update this to your Wolverine, add trying to swing yourself and your guns around, and being shot/firing at the same time.

A stable firing platform in midair, you are never.

#80 Hotthedd

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 09:29 PM

View Postwanderer, on 09 November 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:



A 'Mech in mid-jump isn't a stable thing at all- minus corrective thrust, they quickly start to tumble. Without bracing, weapon recoil or taking hits is basically an exercise in "which part do I land on, oh gawd I hope it's not my head". It's a brick. With rockets strapped to it. The rockets (with help from the gyro) are what maintain an upright and stable (relatively) position.

Pull it off it's columns of thrust and robot fall down go boom. For an excellent example of this, just go to YouTube and look up some folks learning to use a JetLev.

Then update this to your Wolverine, add trying to swing yourself and your guns around, and being shot/firing at the same time.

A stable firing platform in midair, you are never.

And that's just the 'MECH, the pilot would be battling some serious negative Gs as well.





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