402 replies to this topic

[Dodger79]

Gallowglas, on 24 November 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:

I'm fine with them tweaking the skill tree values, but this seems to make the increases so minor as to be negligible. People will definitely feel less incentive to grind their chassis for sure.

And it would feel like a big fat F U to all who converted XP for real money to shortcut the grind...

[Camasi]

The guy in the earlier post that talked about just having a pilot skill tree (many people referred to his post already) had it right on the money.

One of the most annoying things to me in this game is that in order to level up a mech I have to buy 3 other variants. That's just silly! I want to spend my cbills on one variant and one variant only. I get excited about the prospect of buying a new mech but not of a variant that I don't actually want to buy in the first place, but have to because if I don't I will always be at a disadvantage.

The 3 variant rule has to go. It just has to. It's the most annoying thing in this game to me.

Edited by Wedge Mantilles, 25 November 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Quaamik]

• IS Single Heat Sinks is having its cooling rate increased from 0.10 to 0.12.
• IS Single Heat Sinks that are inside the engine will have their cooling increased from 0.1 to 0.11.
• IS Single Heat Sinks will have their heat capacity will be increased from -1.0 to -1.2.
• IS Double Heat Sink has its heat capacity increased from -1.4 to -1.5.
• Clan Double Heat Sink cooling rate increased from 0.14 to 0.15.
• Clan Double Heat Sink capacity will be reduced from -1.4 to -1.1.

What?? Is this a misprint? Clan double heat sinks will now have less capacity than IS single heat sinks? (-1.1 for Clan vs -1.2 for IS Singles?)

That seems way off.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Quaamik, on 25 November 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

What?? Is this a misprint? Clan double heat sinks will now have less capacity than IS single heat sinks? (-1.1 for Clan vs -1.2 for IS Singles?)

That seems way off.

Don't cherry pick individual statistics ... look at each item and consider all the variables ...

SHS: 0.10 cooling rate per ton/sink, 1.2 heat capacity per ton/sink, 0.10 cooling rate per slot, 1.2 heat capacity per slot
DHS: 0.14 cooling rate per ton/sink, 1.5 heat capacity per ton/sink, 0.0467 cooling rate per slot, 0.5 heat capacity per slot
CDHS: 0.15 cooling rate per ton/sink, 1.1 heat capacity per ton/sink, 0.075 cooling rate per slot, 0.55 cooling rate per slot

Cooling Rate per Ton/Sink: CDHS > DHS >> SHS
Cooling Rate per Slot: SHS >> CDHS >> DHS
Heat Capacity per Ton/Sink: DHS >> SHS > CDHS
Heat Capacity per Slot: SHS >> CDHS > DHS

Granted, Clan 'mechs don't have the option of running SHS, but they also get more slots when upgraded with Endo or Ferro.

What this really does is make IS SHS a viable option for some 'mechs, rather than a 1.5 Million C-Bill tax for buying a pre-3045 tech IS 'mech.

[Sigmar Sich]

I believe base mech heatcapacity should be decreased (lets say to 10). All heatsinks should give +1 capacity. SHS +1 dissipation rate, DHS +2 dissipation rate.
Less capacity, more dissipation for DHS = less alphas. And boating SHS would give more capacity.
I made suggestion about heatsinks some time ago, if you interested in calculations.

[Quaamik]

Not cherry picking. The dissipitation values for IS doubles were not listed.

I wasn't looking at it as "per slot", but as "per ton". While per slot it looks better, it still seems extreme since clan weapons already generate more heat. Allowing them to overwhelm the cooling quicker. While they are lighter, allowing more tonnage for heat sinks, there are also often fewer hard points requiring you to go to the larger weapons to get the damage numbers in the viable range.


I absolutely agree with the idea of reducing the capacity to limit alphas. I personally think that most stock mechs should redline with a single alpha. Any more and they become unuseable. Less and it's too easy to go to laser vomit. I'd love to see the Time to Kill adjusted, by reduced alphas, better armor values, more structured way of taking internal damage (allowing you to tailor the build so weapons are lost last) and the weapon balancing, to the point where very few games end with all mechs on one side down in less than the full 15 minutes. That would affect CW as well, allowing truly good players to ride most of the match in a single mech.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Quaamik, on 26 November 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

I wasn't looking at it as "per slot", but as "per ton". While per slot it looks better, it still seems extreme since clan weapons already generate more heat. Allowing them to overwhelm the cooling quicker.

Clan weapons also do more damage for that increased heat at longer ranges, freeing up more tons for CDHS, while staying better than IS 'mechs for damage and range. (In general. There are specific IS 'mechs with stupidly good quirks that out DPS or out-range Clans ... but nothing can out-alpha them for the same tonnage.) If you're overheating too quickly, bring fewer weapons.

Quaamik, on 26 November 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

While they are lighter, allowing more tonnage for heat sinks, there are also often fewer hard points requiring you to go to the larger weapons to get the damage numbers in the viable range.

There was a time (long, long ago, it seems) when 30 points of damage at 500m seemed like a lot. The 2xAC/5 2xPPC VTR-DS ruled the battlefield. Now we have 84-point Laser-Guass DWFs setting a whole new standard.

I'd be really happy for the day when a 40-point alpha was scary again.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 26 November 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[Dagorlad13]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 26 November 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

Clan weapons also do more damage for that increased heat at longer ranges, freeing up more tons for CDHS, while staying better than IS 'mechs for damage and range. (In general. There are specific IS 'mechs with stupidly good quirks that out DPS or out-range Clans ... but nothing can out-alpha them for the same tonnage.) If you're overheating too quickly, bring fewer weapons.


There was a time (long, long ago, it seems) when 30 points of damage at 500m seemed like a lot. The 2xAC/5 2xPPC VTR-DS ruled the battlefield. Now we have 84-point Laser-Guass DWFs setting a whole new standard.

I'd be really happy for the day when a 40-point alpha was scary again.

And those Dire Wolves get torn to pieces by any mech that is smart enough not to stand directly in front of them.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

IronClaws, on 26 November 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

And those Dire Wolves get torn to pieces by any mech that is smart enough not to stand directly in front of them.

If that 'mech can get within about 150m of the Dire Wolf without losing a leg or a torso in the process, then sure, they deserve their chance to chew the DWF's back off. Better hope he doesn't have a TBR, HBR, EBJ, or SCR friend, though.

[Pihoqahiak]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 26 November 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

There was a time (long, long ago, it seems) when 30 points of damage at 500m seemed like a lot. The 2xAC/5 2xPPC VTR-DS ruled the battlefield. Now we have 84-point Laser-Guass DWFs setting a whole new standard.

You really have to put that into context. The Victor was good "long, long ago" because poptarting was a superior play style due to a combination of game factors at that time, which have since been significantly changed to invalidate that play style for almost any mech. The 6 PPC Stalkers were far more devastating "long, long ago" when they were viable.

There is a reason you see very few competitive players ever field a Dire Wolf in Community Warfare (Faction Play) matches, and that's because they just don't compete well against decent opponents overall for the additional tonnage they drain from your drop deck. They are easily outmaneuvered and easily focused down by competent opponents using their ability to quickly gain superior positioning against them. If a team tries to stay near their horribly slow Dire Wolf then they can often just end up trapped in poor positioning along with the Dire Wolf causing the entire team to pay the price for bringing such a slow target to the field. The same can be said now for large team drops in Public Queue (Quick Play) matches as well.

[Appogee]

Pihoqahiak, on 26 November 2015 - 11:58 PM, said:

There is a reason you see very few competitive players ever field a Dire Wolf in Community Warfare (Faction Play) matches, and that's because they just don't compete well against decent opponents overall for the additional tonnage they drain from your drop deck. They are easily outmaneuvered and easily focused down by competent opponents using their ability to quickly gain superior positioning against them.

Truth.

[Dagorlad13]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 26 November 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

If that 'mech can get within about 150m of the Dire Wolf without losing a leg or a torso in the process, then sure, they deserve their chance to chew the DWF's back off. Better hope he doesn't have a TBR, HBR, EBJ, or SCR friend, though.

Exactly, the Dire Wolf is not viable solo, so therefore, not OP by itself.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Guys, I apologize, if I made that about the DWF ... it's not ... it's about the changes to the different flavors of heat sinks, and how adjusting Clan DHS is probably a good move that might help balance Clan Vs. IS.

[Tuann]

mech efficiencies down ?
NO NO NO
what is the value of actually doing the mech tree ?
difference between mastery and locked is minimal

so again :

NO NO NO

in retrospective, i have spent too much cash on this constantly changing game allready.

[mad kat]

On a side note the biggest quirks you could give to the IS lights and totally ignore Weapon quirks would be to reduce the minimum Heat sink requirement to even just 9, 8 would be fantastic but even just 9 would really benefit the likes of the Locust, Commando and urbie. For their size they have one of the highest damage potentials per ton but forcing that extra weight and slot requirement with even just one one heatsink makes a huge difference. I'd gladly sacrifice some weapon and maybe movement quirks if i was allowed to run 8 heatsinks in the smallest of mechs. as it is it just doesn't scale right a Locust needs as many heat sinks as an atlas 5 times heavier to function. Errrr.

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What really baffles me about this change is that they're buffing structure far more than they are armour. Mechs as it stand are already far to reliably durable once their armour is torn off. Think about it, armour is there to protect the vehicle, once that's gone the structure should really suffer with each hit at a much faster rate than it should with armour.

Yeah armour has more HP than internal structure but you can quite happily run around in a mech that's completely exposed without hindrance (assuming no-one shooting you). When in reality its skeleton, myomers, actuator, coolant lines, conduits, loom, components, weapons, ammo would all be knackered and severely hamper the mechs abilities let alone movement and that's without even touching the environment sealing HPG network? Rivers, water, lakes, sub zero and near boiling temperatures anyone?

So why are they increasing structure rather than armour strength considering virtually no-one (bar me it seems) uses machineguns, flamers and LBX's to try and achieve those mythical critical hits. It should be harder to remove armour but faster to kill an exposed mech.

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With the skill tree nerfs and the torso twist rate nerf against the turn speed the YLW will be hopeless, completely over shadowed by the AH.

Refund please.

Edited by mad kat, 27 November 2015 - 03:46 AM.

[Pihoqahiak]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 27 November 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

Guys, I apologize, if I made that about the DWF ... it's not ... it's about the changes to the different flavors of heat sinks, and how adjusting Clan DHS is probably a good move that might help balance Clan Vs. IS.

I don't think it will really help a whole lot for the game overall. The core problem is still there, for both technology bases, and that is that the game will continue to revolve around having the largest alpha possible. There are a couple of ways to change that because ghost heat, and lowering heat sink capacity (which is really the same effect) isn't changing game play other than making people wait a bit longer between alpha peeks. One way would be to just plain hard limit how many of certain weapon types can be fired within .5 seconds of each other instead of the current system of adding heat for firing them within .5 seconds of each other with ghost heat.

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 28 November 2015 - 02:56 AM.

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

Mech Efficiencies:

With the planned changes to mech efficiencies, you will be literally slowing down all mastered mechs. All of your current/loyal player base will turn slower, move slower, aim slower.
The backlash will be great.

The end result of the current mastered mech efficiencies should stay as they are today.
The values for the unmastered mechs/new players should be raised. This will get the desired effect of closing the gap between mastered and unmastered.

Rexxxxxxxxx

[Eregion]

Rexxxxxxxxx, on 27 November 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Mech Efficiencies:

With the planned changes to mech efficiencies, you will be literally slowing down all mastered mechs. All of your current/loyal player base will turn slower, move slower, aim slower.
The backlash will be great.

The end result of the current mastered mech efficiencies should stay as they are today.
The values for the unmastered mechs/new players should be raised. This will get the desired effect of closing the gap between mastered and unmastered.

Rexxxxxxxxx

When I read something like this, I ask myself: "What the hell are you talking about!?"
It's not only you, Rexxxxx(xxx?). You're in good company...

We, the "loyal player base", are asking since forever to reduce Heavies' agility because they feel like Mediums while carring Assault's weaponry. In general, 'Mechs don't feel like 'Mechs, but like Gundams. This is "A Battletech Game" (or should be...).

The backlash will come from all those that don't know how to learn to play in NEW ways (to adapt). Not from "[a]ll of your current/loyal player base".


And to all those that say that 'Mech Efficiencies will not metter, and you will not ever want to change MXP to GXP again... well, don't do it.
If you think that a +7.5% in top speed is not worth the time to master it, don't do it.
If you think that to have a +10% (+20% when mastered!!) in Heat Capacity and +7.5% (+15% when mastered!!) in Heat Dissipation is not worth your time... well, I don't know what to say, if not simply "don't waste your time!".

If you think that it doesn't change anything (or not much), play with basics 'Mechs. It'll be better for all those who say that "the rule of 3 variants have to go", because the difference (you say) will now be minimal (ignoring that this is a F2P game, with the attached grinding needed to make you pay if you don't want to spend your time).

I know that all those that are crying are really afraid of the change, but this game needs a change.

EDIT: I would like a game where you have to think WHICH weapon to fire in that moment. Where you have to think where to move. Where you have to continually think which side of your 'Mech to expose to danger, because of criticals... you know, "a thinking person's shooter"...

Edited by Eregion, 27 November 2015 - 05:14 PM.

[Pihoqahiak]

Eregion, on 27 November 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

We, the "loyal player base", are asking since forever to reduce Heavies' agility beacause they feel like mediums while carring Assault's weaponry. In general, 'Mechs don't feel like 'Mechs, but like Gundams. This is "A Battletech Game" (or should be...).

The backlash will come from all those that don't know how to learn to play in NEW ways (to adapt). Not from "[a]ll of your current/loyal player base".

I seriously doubt there are that many players in this game that feel mechs are too maneuverable. The game already plays horribly as far as mobility is concerned due to small terrain completely stopping your movement and jumping mechs getting caught on terrain (which also has the lovely bonus of stripping your legs when it happens). The good players in the game now are good because they have adapted well to the changes that have already been incorporated into the game as it is. That will not change, the top tier players now will be the top tier players after any changes and they will be even more dominant for the length of added time it will take the non-top tier players to learn and adapt as much as they are able to. What slowing mechs down and making them more sluggish accomplishes is making lights far more easy to kill, and matches taking even longer to get into the action, which will be a serious problem for keeping a large amount of Steam newbies interested in the game.

[YUyahoo]

So despite our feedback this is going through "as is" on Tuesday. And its stated loud and clear in the Dec roadmap that the reason for the skilltree nerfs are to lessen the impact of the performance gap between elited/mastered mechs and unbasiced mechs...somehow I just can't help but feel disappointed over this because the skilltree needs to be reworked not just have all the percentages reduced. Please Russ/PGI either rework the skilltree or leave it as is until it can be properly reworked. This all feels so rushed so that the steam launch can happen now. The roadmap also suggests that CW/faction phase 3 won't be ready until 2016...honestly if you want to make the best impression on new customers and provide them with the best, most complete product that is when the steam launch should happen, after the rebalance (and skilltree rework rather than just percent nerf) has been implemented and refined, after phase 3 is completed not now with the game in this state