364 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Sjorpha, on 18 November 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Like an army of obsessive ex-girlfriends.

Who won't put out. LOL!

[Almond Brown]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 November 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

I must be the only gamer ever who has never played StarCraft.

Don't sweat it. Those who did and or still do understand that despite SC being launched on March 31,1998 if you visit their Forums, the debate about Game Balance between the factions RAGES on to this day.

Edited by Almond Brown, 19 November 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 19 November 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

You mention Esport like it's a bad thing. At it's core Esports are a balanced, skill based game. We saw more different meta in LoL last season than MWO has had in it's entire game life. We saw 74 unique champions used at Worlds out of 126- can MWO claim that half the mechs are useful in competitive play?

^
I've never understood arguments like that. "They're developing for console! Argggggh!" It does nothing but add advertising, revenue streams, and new players and communities.

[WarHippy]

Davers, on 19 November 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

You mention Esport like it's a bad thing. At it's core Esports are a balanced, skill based game. We saw more different meta in LoL last season than MWO has had in it's entire game life. We saw 74 unique champions used at Worlds out of 126- can MWO claim that half the mechs are useful in competitive play?

There is nothing wrong with eSports in and of themselves, but I don't think it works well here(at least not the way it is setup), nor is it something I think a lot of the people traditionally attracted to the Battletech/Mechwarrior universe are particularly interested in or want. Russ picked the wrong IP if he wanted to go down the eSport route properly.

That being said I haven't been a fan of LoL for the last two seasons so if that is your best example I think I will have to pass.

[Bishop Steiner]

Davers, on 19 November 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

You mention Esport like it's a bad thing. At it's core Esports are a balanced, skill based game. We saw more different meta in LoL last season than MWO has had in it's entire game life. We saw 74 unique champions used at Worlds out of 126- can MWO claim that half the mechs are useful in competitive play?

not every game lends itself to esport though. And LoL is not your average Esport game... yet it still bores me to tears.

It's not that esports are bad, it's that the choice to cater to the fickle casual crowd, and have delusions that this would be some grand esport adventure...is the genesis of most of the bad decisions they've made.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Almond Brown, on 19 November 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Don't sweat it. Those who did and or still do understand that despite SC being launched on March 31,1998 if you visit their Forums, the debate about Game Balance between the factions RAGES on to this day.

Even with the imbalances, the majority of the rage is from the usage of cheeze tactics. If you're TvZ, you tech straight to bats and medics. The moment that initial zergling rush is dead, you take the rest of your bats and medics and go to kill his drones. Game over, and it's also why bats aren't in SC2. If you're PvT, you tech straight to dragoons as the T is likely to go for Vulture Spider mines and to kite your Zealots.

The biggest rage comes from players not understanding the counterplay to certain tactics.

Although there is some definite imbalance if you know what to look for in SC and in SC2, the Zerg rule the roost.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

not every game lends itself to esport though. And LoL is not your average Esport game... yet it still bores me to tears.

It's not that esports are bad, it's that the choice to cater to the fickle casual crowd, and have delusions that this would be some grand esport adventure...is the genesis of most of the bad decisions they've made.

It's not the game that doesn't lend itself to E-sports, it's the population. One thing all E-sports games have in common is MASSIVE populations because a large population is necessary to create an E-sport community. PGI trying to make this an E-sport is them putting the cart before the horse. E-sports communities are tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the playerbase, but in BF2, CS1.6, or LoL the E-sport community absolutely dwarfs the entire MWO population.

tl;dr? MWO ain't got the population size to support E-sports.

[Kin3ticX]

"A battletech game" doesn't mean PGI has to hug the core rules and the TROs in everything they do

[Sandpit]

WarHippy, on 19 November 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with eSports in and of themselves, but I don't think it works well here(at least not the way it is setup), nor is it something I think a lot of the people traditionally attracted to the Battletech/Mechwarrior universe are particularly interested in or want. Russ picked the wrong IP if he wanted to go down the eSport route properly.

That being said I haven't been a fan of LoL for the last two seasons so if that is your best example I think I will have to pass.

But you can always create a section FOR Esports if that's one of their aspirations.

Kin3ticX, on 19 November 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

"A battletech game" doesn't mean PGI has to hug the core rules and the TROs in everything they do

...
Please show me anywhere anyone has suggested that?

[Impyrium]

I think we should have called MWO BattleTech: Solaris or MechWarrior: Solaris.

Would have actually made so much more sense, and I'm being serious. I've never had a problem with PGI doing their own competitive shooter spin-off of the series, I've always had a problem with how they've tried to market it as a continuation of the MechWarrior series when frankly it's nothing of the like.

[Repasy Cooper]

Two things that prevent MWO from becoming a prominent eSport:

• The player base is not yet significant enough to 'snowball'. By this I mean we have not reached a threshold where the interest of the current player base is sufficient enough on its own to draw in new players to replace the dippers. Reasons for this could range from not enough content, not enough variation, and not enough reward. If PGI intent is eSport then I'm sure they realize this and are attempting to address the applicable issues. They have told us upfront that this month would be light on updates because they are touching up the front end before steam release AND gearing up for ComWar Beta Phase III. So, they are by no means done creating new content, and hopefully Phase III will address variation and reward issues for the ComWar gamemode.
  
• The current tier system is sufficient for skill league eSports in theory, but due to its late development it inaccurately reflects the skill of the current player base. The skill of the current player base is actually much higher than the tier system indicates, because when it was implemented everyone started at the same tier, whether they should have belonged in tier 1 or tier 5. I think this will work itself out given time, and with the new batch of steam players we will have a good percentage of players start in the tier system from day 1 of gameplay.

I for one am excited for steam release!

Also, I respect you Gyrok but I will always see this game as a Battletech game. It does not have to be a perfect translation from TT to FPS to be associated with Battletech. Even the newly kickstarted Battletech is going to vary from TT rules, and the original inventor himself said he will make those changes with the intent of creating a Battletech that reflects more accurately what he wanted in the first place.

[FupDup]

Dingo Red, on 19 November 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I think we should have called MWO BattleTech: Solaris or MechWarrior: Solaris.

Would have actually made so much more sense, and I'm being serious. I've never had a problem with PGI doing their own competitive shooter spin-off of the series, I've always had a problem with how they've tried to market it as a continuation of the MechWarrior series when frankly it's nothing of the like.

Well, MWO is actually kinda similar to the multiplayer component of those past games, which were practically "arena shooters" themselves.

The primary difference is lacking singleplayer modes.

[TKSax]

Sandpit, on 19 November 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

But you can always create a section FOR Esports if that's one of their aspirations.


...
Please show me anywhere anyone has suggested that?

Uhmm Gyrok when he created the thread...

[Bishop Steiner]

Kin3ticX, on 19 November 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

"A battletech game" doesn't mean PGI has to hug the core rules and the TROs in everything they do

And no intelligent pèrson is seriously suggesting they do that.

The issue, is that the "for balance: core rules ignore" groupthink, seems inclined to lean too far the other direction.

When dealing with translating an existing IP into a new format, it's a balancing act. What works in a board game, pen and paper RPG, often does not translate directly into First Person type environments. Changes need to be made. BUT... if you change things too much from the structure of the original IP...you now lose the flavor of the IP. MW4 came very close to doing that. MechAssault DID do that. SOme suggestions and posters here in MWO, keep pushing to see MWO join those ranks.

And the degree things have already deviated (along with lack of trust, slow progress, lack of content, I would not claim MWOs woes to any one simple thing) are a key part why so much of the original CB population is no longer here.

The key is deviating, or changing when it actually NEEDS to be done. Often, it does not.

[Dracol]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

<good points>
The key is deviating, or changing when it actually NEEDS to be done. Often, it does not.

Well said. Now, considering the creator of BTech himself said the overpowered nature of clan rules was a mistake, I would say the balancing of clan v IS is one of those needs.

[Dracol]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 19 November 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

I'm guessing you don't play CW because when your mech goes down you wait before rejoining the battle in a new mech.

You would be incorrect. Currently infrequently and I also put a lot of time into it during phase 1.

However you do bring up a point, which if we bring it into the context of the original post, would lead to the question "Why did Gyrok not call for removal of BTech name during phase 1 CW with the introduction of respawn?"

As I asked before, what is considered more anti-lore? Clan v IS balance or Respawns. Both break lore to make a more enjoyable gaming experience (for most).

Edited by Dracol, 19 November 2015 - 04:45 PM.

[Sandpit]

TKSax, on 19 November 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Uhmm Gyrok when he created the thread...

I haven't seen anyone ask for that. I don't think I've ever even seen a Founder say anything like that lol

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Dracol, on 19 November 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

You would be incorrect. Currently infrequently and I also put a lot of time into it during phase 1.

However you do bring up a point, which if we bring it into the context of the original post, would lead to the question "Why did Gyrok not call for removal of BTech name during phase 1 CW with the introduction of respawn?"

As I asked before, what is considered more anti-lore? Clan v IS balance or Respawns. Both break lore to make a more enjoyable gaming experience (for most).

If you suspend belief and look at a respawn not as yourself using a "Mario life" and simply coming back in with another mech, but that you're simply controlling a totally different pilot that is coming in as reserves/reinforcements. Which would make one to one parity more lore breaking.

I'm all for the balance decision that makes for better overall gameplay.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 19 November 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Don't sweat it. Those who did and or still do understand that despite SC being launched on March 31,1998 if you visit their Forums, the debate about Game Balance between the factions RAGES on to this day.

Which tells me PGI should have gone for full asymmetry from the very beginning.

[Mystere]

Dingo Red, on 19 November 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I think we should have called MWO BattleTech: Solaris or MechWarrior: Solaris.

Would have actually made so much more sense, and I'm being serious. I've never had a problem with PGI doing their own competitive shooter spin-off of the series, I've always had a problem with how they've tried to market it as a continuation of the MechWarrior series when frankly it's nothing of the like.

People want eSports? That's what Heavy Gear: Assault is for.

Edited by Mystere, 19 November 2015 - 06:37 PM.