592 replies to this topic

[Duvanor]

Fine. Will you give Clan Mechs IS pinpoint guns with cool quirks then as well?

[mekabuser]

Appogee, on 05 December 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

IS Drop Deck is back to 250.

10t will no doubt make aaaallll the difference fighting 12-mans from the top units who went Clan for the event.

ya know ..VERY sad seeing this.

just remembered the original dismay of forums when revealed cw would be even numbered teams.

its one thing that could make it interesting regardless of how cheesy clan goes. numbers. 16 v 10 is significant no matter what.
i dont get .. why not a pug only que for such events.
?
for those who want...
seeing how lopsided this is i think id prob b wasting time.. bah ,
why not make crazy tonnage increase something /.. just to see..
also .. will one group even switch sides just for challenge?
does anyone even do that, or will it just continue to be farm city?

[Tester128]

yeah, too many completely clueless pugs on IS side, kind of ppl who rushes the omega on counterattack.
I'll finish the point farming next drop and i'm out of this, all the clueless pugs who got from the woodwork for the event make me want to execute half the friendly team with careful headshots. What really surprised me is when i dropped with 11 IS premade and they barely managed to overcome pure pug clan team like with a score about 40+-48. The future of IS is hopless.
P.S. Got me 13 drops to get 4k points, average 1.5k damage per drop

Edited by Tester128, 05 December 2015 - 08:14 AM.

[Dassh]

Monitor 1001, on 05 December 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

For instance, have the 'module' or 'upgrade' available to have and IS engine behave like a Clan Engine

Just model the proper BT differences, that's all. I mean in tabletop the difference between Clan XL and IS XL is that clan version has 2 crit slots in sidetorsi instead of 3 (both have 6 crits in CT). At first and second engine crit you get serious extra heat build-up and other negative effects, on the third hit the engine dies and you are out of the game. So, in a bit dumbed down way the difference between getting engine crits with a Clan or IS 'Mech is rolling 11-12 with two dice or rolling 10-12.
Compared to this, in MWO Clan XLs mean a so huge advantage like having an extra life with an IS STD after losing the Clan XL.
But this isn't the only issue. There are other things where Clanners are way more OP than their tabletop buddies. Oh and in TT a star (5 Clanner) usually goes against 2-3 lances (8-12 IS) if not more, I never seen a BT campaign in decades with a 1 on 1 ratio (like in MWO).
Not to mention things like the Clan Rules of Engagement. The Code of Clanners, what basically is this:
" - Warrior will never fire on a 'Mech already engaged with another opponent. This means that no double teaming or gang banging allowed.
- A Warrior will at no time initiate physical attack, such as charging, punching, kicking, or clubbing."
(The second is irrelevant in MWO but the first would ruin the Clanner deathballs for real)
On top of these there are extra rules based on actual Clans, like no fire on a retreating 'Mech, no fire on a shutdown or fallen 'Mech, no fire at the rear, head or legs of a 'Mech.

Fancy rules, ain't it?

[mekabuser]

ITS THE ratio.
.
while they couldnt add? to the fight , they could certainly make it 12 v 5 or 7///

why not do this..?and just see?
OR are the ones who jump ship to clan , or who play clan bec they assume OP , would just go to IS side.?
iow. are those who play on teams ONLY interested in dominating pugs from an advantage?
i say this in all seriousness..

would those playing clan .. STAY with a clan if it they were at a significant numerical disadvantage vs IS pilots of the same quality as right now in this tourney. ?
in a future event?

Edited by mekabuser, 05 December 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[Dassh]

By the way:

Imho introducing the Clans was a very bad idea. I know, I know it was because a lot of people cried for their beloved Mad Cats and ER and streak stuff. But still.
It isn't about that I don't fancy Clans, I do like them indeed. But keeping the game in a TRO 3025 enviroment and placing CW in the Succession Wars (even with Bandit Kings and such) would be way more easier (or possible at all) to keep it fair and competitive without the never ending quirking, buffing, nerfing and unsolvable balance issues.
But this ship has long long sailed away. (And I know it wasn't PGI but some Clan fans pushing it without considering the long term consequencies)

[Duvanor]

Dassh, on 05 December 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Just model the proper BT differences, that's all. I mean in tabletop the difference between Clan XL and IS XL is that clan version has 2 crit slots in sidetorsi instead of 3 (both have 6 crits in CT). At first and second engine crit you get serious extra heat build-up and other negative effects, on the third hit the engine dies and you are out of the game. So, in a bit dumbed down way the difference between getting engine crits with a Clan or IS 'Mech is rolling 11-12 with two dice or rolling 10-12.
Compared to this, in MWO Clan XLs mean a so huge advantage like having an extra life with an IS STD after losing the Clan XL.
But this isn't the only issue. There are other things where Clanners are way more OP than their tabletop buddies. Oh and in TT a star (5 Clanner) usually goes against 2-3 lances (8-12 IS) if not more, I never seen a BT campaign in decades with a 1 on 1 ratio (like in MWO).
Not to mention things like the Clan Rules of Engagement. The Code of Clanners, what basically is this:
" - Warrior will never fire on a 'Mech already engaged with another opponent. This means that no double teaming or gang banging allowed.
- A Warrior will at no time initiate physical attack, such as charging, punching, kicking, or clubbing."
(The second is irrelevant in MWO but the first would ruin the Clanner deathballs for real)
On top of these there are extra rules based on actual Clans, like no fire on a retreating 'Mech, no fire on a shutdown or fallen 'Mech, no fire at the rear, head or legs of a 'Mech.

Fancy rules, ain't it?

So you want Clan rules? You realize we are far from true clantech, right? I doubt you would want to fight that. And in TT losing one sidetorso of an IS mech with XL means your mech is history just like in MWO. No roll involved after hitting that torso. Oft course you could add the possibility to score engine crits without destroying a sidetorso.

At the moment we are far from anything the Clans could do in TT and your arguments can not be applied to MWO because the mechanics of TT ans FPS do not match.

Edited by Duvanor, 05 December 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[Dassh]

Duvanor, on 05 December 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

So you want Clan rules?

I would be okay with Clan rules if it would mean to introduce the drawbacks of Clans aswell - inferiority in numbers, strict rules against ganging up on enemies etc. etc. what makes sides balanced in TT.
And to b honest in TT losing a sidetorso is very rarely an issue, you will collect those engine crits much earlier and in this case Clanners have just a slight advantage. But yes, I would be okay with proper engine crits for both sides with negative effects and going down after 3 hits. Proper DHS rules, RoE and everything. Since it was balanced in its own environment.

But, If you are interested in my opinoin - as I wrote above - if they aimed for a 12v12 deathmatch shooter in Mech-costumes (what MWO is atm) then introducing Clans was the worst idea possible.

[Dassh]

And just to add, the "we are far from true clantech" arguement isn't valid since we are very far from IStech aswell. Like where is my heavy gauss rifle?

[Arkhangel]

Dassh, on 05 December 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

I would be okay with Clan rules if it would mean to introduce the drawbacks of Clans aswell - inferiority in numbers, strict rules against ganging up on enemies etc. etc. what makes sides balanced in TT.
And to b honest in TT losing a sidetorso is very rarely an issue, you will collect those engine crits much earlier and in this case Clanners have just a slight advantage. But yes, I would be okay with proper engine crits for both sides with negative effects and going down after 3 hits. Proper DHS rules, RoE and everything. Since it was balanced in its own environment.

But, If you are interested in my opinoin - as I wrote above - if they aimed for a 12v12 deathmatch shooter in Mech-costumes (what MWO is atm) then introducing Clans was the worst idea possible.

another possibility to solve the guild thing is limit the amount of people per unit. your average Merc unit in the IS was a Regiment and change at most. make it 108, then just have people form sister units. it would also help out when we eventually get a choice at buying a Dropship for our assets at some point, given one giant unit can't completely instantly upgrade their stuff to be unassailable by a smaller unit.

it's worked in EVE Online for awhile. it's also why that game has the option to form Alliances between Units/Corps.

[Arkhangel]

Dassh, on 05 December 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

And just to add, the "we are far from true clantech" arguement isn't valid since we are very far from IStech aswell. Like where is my heavy gauss rifle?

3067, about 15 years from now. now, IS Ultras, LBX, larger Streak packs and Light Gauss are all just a couple years off, as are IS Omnis, and BattleMechs like the Hollander, Rakshasa, Uziel and Bushwacker. Heavy Gauss is a FedCom Civil War weapon, as is the Rotary Autocannons, believe they're "IS Tech 3". the other stuff is IS Tech 2 i just mentioned.

[Dassh]

Arkhangel, on 05 December 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

3067, about 15 years from now. now, IS Ultras, LBX, larger Streak packs and Light Gauss are all just a couple years off, as are IS Omnis, and BattleMechs like the Hollander, Rakshasa, Uziel and Bushwacker. Heavy Gauss is a FedCom Civil War weapon, as is the Rotary Autocannons, believe they're "IS Tech 3". the other stuff is IS Tech 2 i just mentioned.

True, its 3067, my bad. Well, maybe they should just move a few years to the future and that's all, balance fixed. Like having stealth armor (3063) what is IS only and really gives the magical effect of MWO's ECMs and it is IS only, Clans can only dream about it. Or Ferro-Lamellor armor (3070) what IS only and beats Ferro-Fibrous any day. Compact gyro (3068) and so on. Oh and the Light Fusion Engine of course (3062)...
Actually Nullsig system or Chameleon LPS are existing since 2630, just they are quite lostech.

They would be solutions I think.

[KursedVixen]

Dassh, on 05 December 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Just model the proper BT differences, that's all. I mean in tabletop the difference between Clan XL and IS XL is that clan version has 2 crit slots in sidetorsi instead of 3 (both have 6 crits in CT). At first and second engine crit you get serious extra heat build-up and other negative effects, on the third hit the engine dies and you are out of the game. So, in a bit dumbed down way the difference between getting engine crits with a Clan or IS 'Mech is rolling 11-12 with two dice or rolling 10-12.
Compared to this, in MWO Clan XLs mean a so huge advantage like having an extra life with an IS STD after losing the Clan XL.
But this isn't the only issue. There are other things where Clanners are way more OP than their tabletop buddies. Oh and in TT a star (5 Clanner) usually goes against 2-3 lances (8-12 IS) if not more, I never seen a BT campaign in decades with a 1 on 1 ratio (like in MWO).
Not to mention things like the Clan Rules of Engagement. The Code of Clanners, what basically is this:
" - Warrior will never fire on a 'Mech already engaged with another opponent. This means that no double teaming or gang banging allowed.
- A Warrior will at no time initiate physical attack, such as charging, punching, kicking, or clubbing."
(The second is irrelevant in MWO but the first would ruin the Clanner deathballs for real)
On top of these there are extra rules based on actual Clans, like no fire on a retreating 'Mech, no fire on a shutdown or fallen 'Mech, no fire at the rear, head or legs of a 'Mech.

Fancy rules, ain't it?

Those rules do not apply to mercenaries and all IS players are mercenaries.

anyway yeah why don't innerspher get those weapons that clan doesn't have? light guass heavy guass? The year doesn't matter anymore lore for MWo has been thrown out the window blown into the sky and blasted into itty bitty pieces. and where's my H A G? Racs?

Edited by KursedVixen, 05 December 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Viges]

Dassh, on 05 December 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Like where is my heavy gauss rifle?

in 3061



Over buffing IS mechs to compensate the lack of any ranking systems in CW is just stupid.


Also, 4000 points? Grind event, why u do it again PGI?

[Dassh]

KursedVixen, on 05 December 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Those rules do not apply to mercenaries and all IS players are mercenaries.

Well, it is an interesting arguement, since in that sense anybody who doesn't have a permanent contract with a Clan faction does not qualify as a trueborn and cannot use clan technology at all. If we are strict about this.

But the most important part - the rule against teaming up on somebody - do apply since it is about the other Trueborn not the enemy. Like if you shoot at the prey of a fellow Clanner it will end in a Trial after the Battle for sure.

KursedVixen, on 05 December 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

anyway yeah why don't innerspher get those weapons that clan doesn't have? light guass heavy guass? The year doesn't matter anymore lore for MWo has been thrown out the window blown into the sky and blasted into itty bitty pieces. and where's my H A G? Racs?

I have been thinking about it a bit and maybe it isn't a good idea (even if I brought it up before). How would it end? Like making IS the only side with current "ECM" (so perfect lack or radar sig, like Stealth armor), how much whinning would it mean? Or what would LF engines make from TDRs and Jagers? Oh and I wonder how quick will somebody ducktape together a dual heavy gauss King Crab - with LF engine ofc - what just one-shot Timbers any time. It would just turn the problem isnide out but noithing more.

In TT the balance is solved in a stragetic level (being a strategy game after all). Clanners have a clear and unarguable advantage in a 1 on 1 combat. But they are specialised in this and has no real knowledge in strategic level operations where IS has an advantage (ground units, anti-Mech infantry etc.).
On top of these Clanners are honour-bound, chivalric warriors while IS has no worries about things like after a Star Commander introduced himself and challenged the defending IS Mechwarriors, to just simply bomb them into glass from orbit.

But these things cannot be simulated in MWO, so maybe the best solution to just forget about lore and balance sides on a 1 on 1 basis, giving some unique tase for both sides.
I have no better idea atm.

[Monitor 1001]

Dassh, on 05 December 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

But these things cannot be simulated in MWO, so maybe the best solution to just forget about lore and balance sides on a 1 on 1 basis, giving some unique tase for both sides.
I have no better idea atm.

This is a VERY good idea. If we want this game to survive and perhaps even THRIVE we can't have such a huge imbalance. The losers will stop playing, and the winners will have no one to play against. The net result is that the game would die and we ALL would be without a mech game for another decade or so. I'm sure NONE of us want that!

[Dassh]

Viges, on 05 December 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Over buffing IS mechs to compensate the lack of any ranking systems in CW is just stupid.

It isn't overbuffing at all. Anybody who played IS and Clan 'Mechs aswell know that Clanners have a clear advantage. I don't say there are no awesome players on Clan side - there are many - but the same guy will do better in a Clan 'Mech. Sure, they are a bit nerfed but the problem is that in things what really matters they are still have a clear upper hand. I mean who cares that you have to hide in cover for 1-2 seconds more before you peek out with your Crow or Timber packed with CMLs and deliver so much pinpoint damage with such a range (even after nerf) to make a LL Stalker pathetic. Oh and with a fraction of neccessary weight to pack them ofc.

Btw I'm perfectly against an kind of ranking system in any game (maybe playing more than a decade Quake 3/Cpma had some impact on me in this sense :-) ). We don't need fake success with being the best among the worst. And there are good units and players on both sides, itr isn't an issue.

Oh and we don't have a real ranking system in MWO at all atm. The tier system is a joke, not just because 4 out of 5 tiers will play together anyways but because it is mainly based on two things: win-lose (where you have 8% part in your team) and damage dealt what goes for high DPS builds. So it's mostly about others in your team. And it's tuned the way that if you aren't seriously handicapped your rating will just slowly raise, but just slowly.
So it is nothing else than an MMO-like "experience level", a measure to how much you played and a bar you can grind to fill. Perfectly pointless and doesn't solve the problem.

Viges, on 05 December 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Also, 4000 points? Grind event, why u do it again PGI?

"Grind"? Are you kidding? I played like 3 hours last night, on IS side, dropping solo and even with the loses I'm almost half way.
You can do it in no time.

[Appogee]

Arkhangel, on 05 December 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

another possibility to solve the guild thing is limit the amount of people per unit.

The units will just group together and behave like one big unit, anyway.

You already see this with all the small units who follow MS and 228 contracts around, like flies on faeces, so they never have to compete against them.

Over in the FRR forum, in the leadup to this event, the smaller units were discussing unifying so as to get into the top 3 and win a banner.

It seems some people would rather game the system seems than make CW a meaningful and realistic roleplay style engagement.

Edited by Appogee, 05 December 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Memnon Valerius Thrax]

so first the ''balance'' patch which was only a nerf fest for the Clans and now IS 10 tons more?
i say great!!

seems Pgi hate us claner. They want to see us lose. But we will never loose even not we have 200tons of weaker mechs.
We cant loose cuz we have the good Units and the good Players.
nerf us more, buff the IS more and more, dosnt matter pgi.

We are gods.

Edited by Memnon Valerius Thrax, 05 December 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Tester128]

Dassh, on 05 December 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Timber packed with CMLs and deliver so much pinpoint damage with such a range (even after nerf) to make a LL Stalker pathetic. Oh and with a fraction of neccessary weight to pack them ofc.

you cant really call damage spread out over 1+ second pinpoint. if you choos to stand still and get it indaface its not a clan tech problem